So brainwashing is justified?

So brainwashing is justified?

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Yes, brainwashing can be a good thing too. Like brainwashing people, into thinking for themselves...

If you could brainwash the next hitler would you do it?
He's most definitely going to rape and kill everyone you know and love too, as a factor

Btw society didn't learn shit in this game. Emancipation was only exclusive to the PT+maxed co-ops
The rest of society just cheered for whoever manipulated them in order to feel safe. It was seen in macro and micro levels throughout the game (from, well, the main story, to mishima controlling face by moderating posts in his own website to make the PT look good)

Is it really brainwashing if it's just making people realize that they are shit and admitting it?

lol what are you some kind of moralfag?

It's literally brainwashing, they're basically thought policing. Have you ever seen A Clockwork Orange?

It's not brainwashing, they just awake the people's conscience. The shadow could theoretically refuse to co-operate and then all the phantom thieves could possibly do is kill the shadow and trigger a mental shutdown or leave everything as is.

TO SAVE BILLIONS

Its not justified. they realize that and agree to stop.

It's not brainwashing, it's beating the shit out of them mentally until their god complexes run out and the guilt of their actions finally hits them

it would be more mercy just to kill the guy.

Fuck those adults we are the phantom thieves!

Shut up, Ryuji

But you're literally rewriting their personalities to make them feel guilt, guilt isn't a given and whether or not someone actions are bad is entirely up to personal opinion.

Guilt and empathy are normal human behaviors, not having them makes you a sociopath

The shadow's run in with the phantom thieves is not any more "rewriting" than day to day experience shaping your personality.

Akechi was 100% right and the game turning him into a psychopath was a dumb cop-out.

The game discusses this exact point. They realise what they’re doing is fucking people up, but decide to carry on anyway because it’s better than giving up.
The point of the story is that pushing for your own sense of what’s right and just rather than bowing to peer pressure is an important aspect of life.

>Fuck
You mean ef right?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0
I highly doubt that

What people don't realize is that in and of the Palace system, there would need to be an object moral structure as it plainly presents itself with positive and negatives. The introduction of someone gaining a palace is a clear and undeniable presents of a person containing an abject amount of negative/poor morals.

"Infiltrating a palace" is going into the mind of a person and convincing someone through arguments that what they are doing is wrong. "Stealing the treasure" is winning the argument. Only if you kill the person after stealing the treasure will cause the mental shutdown, that would be a true brainwash.

What the phantom thieves do is no different then convincing someone to admit their crimes/sins. The entirety of violence in the therms of stealing and fighting is just how OUR OWN cognition can understand the process of which they go about convincing someone to do so.

Its not different then a salesman persuading you to buy something you originally did not want to buy, using words of commencement alone.

18+ you dumb fuck

It's "convincing" through brainwashing. Just admit you think it's okay to forcibly go into someone's head and fundamentally change their mental structure.

Doubt all you will, but change of heart is absolutely not the same as brainwashing.

It's using specialized techniques to fundamentally change a person's psychology against their will, that is 100% brainwashing.

The only time the game actually admits it might be a bad thing, besides Akechi who is swept under the rug, is in Mementos Depths where it's revealed that their "change of heart" reduced their strength of will and made it easier for them to give into the Holy Grail.

The term "Brainwashing" is a caveat in and of itself.

>brain·wash
>ˈbrānˌwôSH,ˈbrānˌwäSH/Submit
>verb
>gerund or present participle: brainwashing
make (someone) adopt radically different beliefs by using systematic and often forcible pressure.
"the organization could brainwash young people"
>synonyms: indoctrinate, condition, reeducate, persuade, influence, propagandize, inculcate
>"the evidence is compelling that these cult members were indeed brainwashed"

By this definition, you telling me to "Just admit you think it's okay to forcibly go into someone's head" is in itself brainwashing, so I could just throw the same question back to you.

I dont fucking get it

The "adult" shit is so cringy, why would they put that in?

You have a very warped definition of force. Me telling you to do something over the internet is not force, at most it's a strong suggestion. The Persona 5 crew breaking into someone's Palace and destroying their mental defenses (what do you think the "Security" is?) in order to force them to adopt different beliefs is brainwashing.

What do you think this game is intended for? The delusional middle schoolers.

>What the phantom thieves do is no different then convincing someone to admit their crimes/sins.

>tell them irl that they're evil cunts
>"haha suck my cock I do what I want lol I'm so evil"
>go into their palace where it's "no different than convincing them to admit their crimes"
>"omg how could I have done that I'm so evil met me confess and cry now ;_;"

Yeah getting these cunts who would never in a million years admit to doing this shit is totally the same thing as persuasuin and definitely not brainwashing at all.

Even if it is brainwashing (which it isn't), you'd still have no argument for how it's a "bad thing", because the change of heart was triggered in bastards that had nothing redeeming about their actions.

As the other user said, never seen/read A Clockwork Orange?

this game more than any other has me convinced 90% of Sup Forums is either fucking retarded and skips all dialogue or doesn't play games at all.

Changing their heart is forcing them to consciously face their Shadow. It's Jungian psychology.
Deep down they already knew what they were doing was wrong. Internally, they all went through something like what we see Futaba go through when her Shadow grills her about her mother's death, forcing her to remember suppressed memories and break down her delusions.

It probably wouldn't have happened if they didn't act, but it could have. They were only forced to be honest with themselves, and that brings out their guilt and remorse.

That is the point. You must first find a measurable definition of what is "persuasive" and what is "forceful". Their "mental defenses" are simply how they perceive they own nameless faceless victims. A person can be an ill behaved drunkard who beats his children and not have a palace, but someone like Futaba, whom one could argue is her own victim will somehow have palace. Realistically, if she were to be cured of it, it would take many years of psychiatry therapy to due so. Would we call a psychiatrist a brainwasher? Are they forcefully making her think a different way? No. No rational person who is a pediatric psychiatrist would do this forcefully, they would be persuading her to change her ways.

You would need to create a scale of change to someones will. One going from a simple change in taste or style, to opinion, to changes in habits, to changes behavior or demeanor, to changes in morals, and thus, to total changes of heart. To prove it is brainwashing over simply persuading, you would need a measurable example of at what point it would be needed to use "force" to proceed down the list of more radical changes.

Such a measurement does not exist because like I say, calling it brainwashing is not a fitting definition. It is the same as proving a theory by lack of evidence then of tangible existing evidence. Such is not the scientific process.

I could explain it as the existence of a palace is based on a predetermined set of morals that is more or less based on our own, which is more or less based off of Judo-Christian values.

By SMT lore, the "cognition" is simply anyone's brain showing someone the best they can how to interpret the cognitive world. You could argue by SMT logic, that we only see what see through the PT is the doing of our cognition.

Not him but you're probably thinking it's not brainwashing because they are not inserting / introducing any new information (besides calling cards, which don't really count) but altering perception is also within brainwashing territory.

Well look at eurocucks, media brainwash them everyday to think they should rescue all those fake refugees or they would be bad people. Here in my country are now trying to say tunnels are sexist, just wait some months to see normal people repeat that

OBSESSED
Jesus Christ, you idiots really convinced yourselves you know everything about our countries and how "cucked" we are

When you're an effin adult it is. Did Codename KND teach you nothing?

Akechi is a hypocrite. He even takes the easy way by killing mooks.

I'm from Europe, the brainwashing is pretty obvious, why deny it

I'm not denying the stupidity and virtue signaling from some media outlets or people in general. Doesn't mean it's an active conspiracy to brainwash or whatever, AND it's nothing new, the fact that we had a noteworthy recent crisis doesn't cancel the fact that we had problems like that for decades, so seeing someone bringing up only the recent "rapefugees" makes me think he's an ignorant fool too fond of Sup Forums memes

Brainwashing is literally how you have a functional and stable society.

I don't understand why they made Ryuji say "eff" most of the time when he clearly drops full f bombs a couple times.

SHITTY
EFFIN
ADULTS
MAN

wasn't the idea that what they're doing isn't right nor legal but the end result is worth it aka making awful criminals confess their awful sins, at least for them?

It works there because he's talking about some serious shit, so you could say it's more impactful, but the other time he says "fuck" in dialogue is when Sojiro finds out which isn't nearly as heavy.
It's just a weird localization choice. Would have been better if they just used "freakin'" or "hell" most of the other times, "eff" is really awkward.

>what is chaotic good

It is if no one can stop you. Justice is decided by threat of force. If you can't be stopped, then you are justice.

In disorder there is secret order

This. Only brainlets and jews would disagree.

So I finished this yesterday and I stayed clear of spoilers all this time.

What's the general opinion on the ending? All that comes after Shido's Palace looked like tackled on at the end to give it the smt theme of going against a god.

Also why did Morgana have visions of himself as a shadow if he never was one?

makes sense

>All that comes after Shido's Palace looked like tackled on at the end to give it the smt theme of going against a god.
That seems to be a popular opinion.
It's weird how they managed to put so many interesting ideas into the ending, but it all falls flat, for most the fight with Shido is the definitive climax and everything after that might as well not exist

Morgana IS a shadow.
But instead of being originated by a "real" living being, it was the opposite: born as shadow and given a physical form in real world.

That's why at the end his phantom thief form is wiped out, like all of the other shadows.

Or at least that's what I understood

Morgana is an embodiment of humanity's hope that was given a form by Igor and sent to find Joker to guide him into Mementos, he starts disappearing because he fulfilled his purpose
or whatever
Honestly, I never gave a shit about him.

In my mind the difference between "persuasive" and "forceful" is up to the brainwashed in question. Did any of the victims wilfully invited Phantom Thieves into their minds? No, they broke in and literally mindfucked them into changing their opinion. It doesn't matter if in the end shadow changed - the events leading up to it were already forceful.