Lol what the fuck is this genocide route? Did Toby just give up after he finished the neutral and pacifist routes?

Lol what the fuck is this genocide route? Did Toby just give up after he finished the neutral and pacifist routes?

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The butter dragon sapped his will to keep working on the project

>i-it's SUPPOSED to be bad!

it's decent enough
hits you in the gut a bit if you enjoyed the pacifist route
offers an ok challenge especially if you havent played much or any bullet hell games
whats a real shame is incomplete hard mode

>offers an ok challenge especially if you havent played much or any bullet hell games
It has only two fights that could be considered challenging and they're spread across boring grinding segments. It could have easily been THE hard mode for the game but it's just lazy as fuck instead.

>don't even get to kill the universally hated character
>she's only ever implied to die in a neutral ending (not all the way pacifist or genocidal)

Grinding enemies is really fucking boring.
After all the fucking success he refuses to patch in a proper Genocide or Hard mode. god damn what a greedy fuck.

You don't begin the route expecting extra challenge from it, unless you read about it beforehand. Even excusing that, you can't expect the dude to have the double foresight needed to live up to the non-existent expectations built up a non-existent community.
The extra 2 bosses throw you for a loop, they're surprises in a mostly easy and uneventful route that logically follows through with the consequences of your actions. That logical through-line being that killing shit to grind your stats makes games piss. I don't really see how the grinding could be avoided either. It's what you do.
>hurr durr you sayin it's supposed to be shit
Yeah maybe, it's the weakest route imo, but still has solid writing and neat for throwing a couple of curveballs.
Also a joke incomplete hard mode already exists in the game too. The game mocks the idea of incorporating a hard mode, probably because that rubs against its divisive anti-completionist themes.

I didn't expect an extra challenge from the route, but considering there's a half finished hard mode in the game and a lazy, trivial genocide route too, I suggested the genocide route could have made for a good hard mode alternative.
>That logical through-line being that killing shit to grind your stats makes games piss.
Meta commentary doesn't excuse gameplay being shit. They could co-exist. For instance, if harder enemies started showing up earlier in the genocide route, would you honestly complain? It's not like it couldn't be explained story-wise. Have more amalgmates appear, and have them actually appear throughout the core or somewhere. In this situation, you could have the early genocide route being pretty easy which acts as the commentary on grinding, but then have shit get harder you as progress, giving the route to exist as something playable in the first place. Plus, there's just no reason for minibosses that are already present during the genocide route to just die instantly other than because of a lame ass story reason (which Undyne is allowed to ignore). At the very least, you should be allowed to actually fight them.

>new bosses
>new music
>new dialogue
it has just as much effort as all the others faggot. 2 years later and you fags still shitpost over this indie game

>plays a parody game that was created as a statement
>complains that its not hard enough

spoiler: the game comes second to the message. if you dont like this, you are literally playing the wrong game. play something else.

This but unironically
But really just use a save editor to skip right to the Undyne and Sans fights those are the only parts worth playing through yourself

>Grinding enemies is really fucking boring.

thats the point. its a satire of rpgs and powerleveling. its literally the point.

if you dont like chocolate, dont eat chocolate. its that simple.

>the game comes second to the message.
doubt you would be saying this if the game had generic RPGMaker combat

Funniest post of the year so far

Haven't played the game but what's the message?

i mean i would, but it just wouldn't be good. those things aren't mutually exclusive.

good or bad, the game was made to make a point. if you are looking for a proper, deeper GAME, you are actually just in the wrong place.

again, if you dont like chocolate, dont eat chocolate. if you dont want to watch a disney movie, dont buy a ticket to a disney movie. you can argue that about how it makes its statements and the statements it makes all you want, but dont bitch that the chef made you spaghetti when you fucking ordered spaghetti

>its a satire of rpgs and powerleveling. its literally the point.
The point is...?

it has a lot to say, but the biggest statement is about games in general. like you get EXP, but it stands for extermination points instead of experience points. and you gain LOVE, but it stands for LEVEL OF VIOLENCE.

it takes the piss out of the idea of wringing every bit of content out of games, and takes the piss out of the idea of 100% completion.

its very much a meta-game. its self aware to an obnoxious extent.

like if you beat the genocide route more than once, it straight up tells you that you have a 'perverted sense of sentimentality' and asks you if you don't have something better to do with your time.

etc etc. there are hundreds of youtube videos about undertales meta narrative shit.

>food analogy
>i-it's a satire to deconstruct the genre
the absolute state of undertalefags

that powerleveling and grinding are inherently boring and bad mechanics, both in practice and in narrative. the idea that you would waste all this time just to beat digital monsters because you can, because you want some kind of challenge or specific ending. its entirely self aware that it is making you do this. the game outright asks you to stop. i mean fuck man. did you even play it? are you capable of reading into things?

its true though. if you didn't want a short, shallow game about meta narrative, then why the fuck did you play undertale?

like, why would you play dota if you don't want to play a moba? why would you play counterstrike if you didn't want to play a fps?

again, you can bitch about the story and the structure and all of those elements all you want, but to complain that the game is literally not the game you wanted to play is kinda stupid. if this isn't what you want, why are you playing undertale???

simply put, this game isn't for you.

What did you expect? You're playing a poorly-made niche meme game that's literally only popular because of Homestuck, one of the worst things to have ever graced the internet and still manage to be popular.

this.

it boils down to this. what did you expect? if you wanted something more, you are just playing the wrong game.

>powerleveling and grinding are inherently boring and bad mechanics
>let me make a route in my game based around powerleveling and grinding to show how much it sucks
Bravo retard

fish

You still insist on having a hard mode, even though that I put forward evidence that suggest that a hard mode was never seriously considered.
So I guess you really wanted to be challenged by the game, I'm sorry that you were never going to be.

holy shit

what a bunch of autism

and it'd all be lost on people who just plow through the game once and call it done

>let me make a route in my game based around powerleveling and grinding to show how much it sucks

i mean yeah, you literally kill all the monsters. they actually stop spawning. you aren't just powerleveling in undertale and thats the point. you are actually killing everything. they don't respawn. its an important component to the story.

again, if you don't like it, you are playing the wrong game. stop playing narrative-driven anti-games.

So the game is condemning grinding by making it boring, puts tons of signs that say "why are you doing this, you weirdo?" and then hides two super fun boss fights behind all the tedium? So ultimately the message of the genocide route is: "Man isn't this fucked up? Just kidding lol it's actually worth it because you get rewarded with fun! And your actions don't matter since it's literally just a video game." not very thought out imo

yeah, again, its not for those people. it is a NICHE game. it was made to be that way. you dont have to like it, but it is exactly what toby fox set out to make.

its not for everyone and thats what he wanted.

>clarified my stance since you brought into question the reason for suggesting a genocide/hard mode merge
>>you still insist
Great discussion. You know you can just stop responding when you don't have anything else to say, right?

Why the fuck would you do a whole bunch of research on the story telling aspect of a game before playing it?

"Oh neat an RPG, sounds fun. I'll play it!" is a ton more likely than "Huh I wonder if the game creator uses a non-standard way of interacting with the player, especially the game showing some kind of self-awareness that would contribute to its narrative in a way that transcends normal program limitations."

No wonder people hate the fanbase so much.

Why not?
The absurdity is funny.

>game says you can save or kill people
>decide to kill or save people
>DUDE DON'T PLAY THE GAME LMAO
manipulative things and so on

It isn't that niche. It's a game with straight-forward gameplay, cutesy characters, and pretty OK music. Been to ANY cons lately? You'll have dozens and dozens of people dressed as Undertale characters.

>responding to literally any criticism with "it's not for you"
No shit buddy, I'm sure Chrono Trigger isn't a game for people who end up disliking Chrono Trigger, but those people are still allowed to criticize the game.

i didnt. i played it totally blind. and i still enjoyed it greatly.

I wish I wasn't so bad at dodging with the heart in combat that I couldn't beat the game (Undyne). Game seemed fun but if I've never experienced that kind of combat I'm not going to be able to beat it.

yeah you can enjoy the game for what it is

but expecting EVERYONE who plays it to dig deep into the methods of story telling is ridiculous

youre not criticizing the game, youre criticizing genocide mode
you have to kill 5x the number of monsters you naturally encounter just walking through the game normally to even trigger that shit, in every single area of the game
youre not even criticizing it for making you replay the whole game if you get even one kill to move from the neutral to pacifist ending, youre sperging out that a 100% optional and difficult to encounter game mode isnt to your taste

There's a message in there about how indiscriminately murdering everything you come across is not a good thing. It's exactly how it's supposed to be, not fun to do. No patching necessary.

hold on now, i said very specifically that you could criticize its story, structure, etc. you can bitch about its characters and music and all that shit, but if you are comparing it to a traditional, deep rpg with lots of content, you are just playing the wrong game.

Why did the fandom turn Chara into an innocent victim of bad circumstances?

Except if you genocide everything you get rewarded with two superfun boss fights.

Assuming you're talking about genocide Undyne, she does the same attacks in the same order. You can just replay the battle and make incremental progress on it until you beat it. Really, try it out once.

>genocide mode isn't part of the game
Well you're on the right path, it SHOULDN'T be part of the game
>youre sperging out that a 100% optional and difficult to encounter game mode isnt to your taste
>don't criticize optional content
>don't criticize content that is hard to access
mmm why not

>if you
I'm not. Maybe someone else earlier in the reply chain was, but I'm complaining that genocide sucks and is squandered potential. And yeah, if it was more in line with a traditional RPG, ie had actual fights and gameplay and such, it probably would be better. But I didn't bring up that comparison. You did.

i didnt say everyone had to at all, but it is kinda the point.

i didn't say you cant criticize it, i said youre not, its boring to grind because its supposed to be boring to grind
theres no criticism in "it's boring" because yea, it fucking is.

>Kill all the monsters you encounter
>Surprised that there's less content in the game to interact with once they're all dead

Where, in the game, does it tell you to remove the context of the videogame and then look at everything surrounding the game, the genre of game, and conventional story telling?

>assuming Undyne genocide
on my first run doing pacifist and I can't beat her (I barely bet the mannequin) I'm not very good at it and it's annoying to die because you have to go through the same phases again which may just be long and not hard

And as a result, Genocide sucks. Glad we agree then.

>story reason justifies lower quality gameplay
Unfortunately not the case.

>the message is hard modes are dumb and completionists are dumber
Waaaahhhh I still want that

>autisming out over a $10 video game made for children
lol what a thread

I don't know what you guys expect from the genocide route. You're literally exterminating every single monster you come across, growing more powerful with each kill, in a game where you can easily beat it at a measly 20 health. What else is there to do?

The only thing I can think of is an Omega Asgore boss, but that doesn't solve the main problem of the rest of the game being a boring grind.

Come on man, I believe in you. Are you well stocked on healing items? Do you remember the part(s) that are especially difficult for you? If it's the yellow arrows that change direction, you should be able to get them down (mostly) with just a little repetition. Repeating boss fights usually shortens the boss's opening speech by a bit so it's not too much off a hassle. Also you might want to equip the two items that increase evasion, they're a god send.

>retard complains about video game discussion
May I suggest, another board perhaps?

>The only thing I can think of is an Omega Asgore boss
and for some reason, harder versions of the minibosses/other bosses you kill in one hit didn't come to mind?

i mean... holy shit man. like. all of the subversion? that the stats and levels are basically fake? that the equipment doesn't actually matter? that you actually do kill all the monsters if you keep going? that it even addresses the load states and modifies its own game files? that it is totally self aware of its existence AS a game? that even the UI is attacked and attacks you?

like. fuck man. its thick with it.

Your stance is literally "I want the thing even though the game is about the Complete opposite"
Yet you still act like your IQ is above 60

genocide is, or should be, an extention of your first one to two playthroughs, after pacifist if youre still into that shit it's a "what would happen if i killed everyone"
if you did get pacifist flowey pops up and basically says "hey, i know what youre about to do, wtf"
its a boring slog because your curiosity has you in a choke hold
if you clear out the ruins your character insta-gibs toriel, you stare dead-eyed at sans and papyrus as they act like goofs
then if you clear out the snow place snowden is EMPTY because theres a fucking murderer on the way
genocide is fine, youre a retard

Omega Asgore has a reason to be super powerful, that being becoming a literal god.

Torial would never go all out against a child, and Pap is VERY effective in the state he is right now. Which really just leaves Mettaton. You could give him a proper boss fight too, but then we just have three really hard boss fights back to back, which, again, would be more content, but doesn't solve the problem of Genocide being a boring slog up until then

>I want dunkirk to have more 90s Action
But the movie is not about that. The message is that this is bad
>So we agree it sucks
Fucking kill yourself

I just want Toby to finish that alarm clock app. He's gonna do something funky with it considering he advised never actually using it as an alarm clock app

honestly though i went into the game totally blind. when i started the genocide route i had no idea about the kill quotas and just tried to kill toriel normally. it wasn't until i died a few times that i decided to do the normal thing you do in those situations -- power level.

after grinding a few levels, i finally hit the kill quota and holy shit that moment was huge. when the music changed and i got the "but nobody came" message, i straight up took a step back. i don't know how many times i said "oh fuck off toby" in my head during undertale, but that time it was an audible reaction from me.

i loved it.

You didn't get bored when the encounter rate dropped to a tenth of what it normally was?

You're not quite following what I'm saying.
You would've preferred that, instead of putting a joke Hard Mode and a mostly uneventful Genocide Mode in the game, Genocide should've been populated with escalating challenge not unlike a Hard Mode. The fact that this isn't in the game, or any alternative, means the game is unfinished.
What I'm saying is that the creator of the game obviously didn't want a challenge route. Merging Genocide with Hard Mode would still make it a soft Hard Mode.
Does this suck? Yeah, maybe for some people. Maybe for a lot of people actually, including you, but others found value in that design decision. That's why the anti-completionist theme is divisive in the first place. The game encourages "replaying" until a certain point, at which it actively fights against the player in deliberate ways.

And your stance is literally "Bad gameplay is okay when it serves the game's story/creator's position on something."
You're the first to bring up intellectual superiority here, don't know why you feel so threatened.

Shame on me for expecting good gameplay and complaining when there is none. I guess a message which could come across much better in pretty much any other format of media (such as a review for a game that requires grinding) is more important.

I can understand papyrus not having a good fight, but the story could easily be manipulated to give a reason for Toriel to be stronger. Plus, there's tons of minibosses (like Hotland guards) which put up less of a fight than normal enemies.

Sorry if I struck a nerve. Try engaging in actual discussion instead of falling back on the same metaphor that isn't relevant next time.

>means the game is unfinished
I don't mean to say that, but I do think it means that genocide mode is worse off because of it.
I understand it's a divisive theme, and that's why I'm discussing it. What's worrying to me is how many people actually think the meta commentary of it is more valuable than the affect it has on gameplay.
I have complaints about the other two routes but that's not important to the discussion.

>dying to toriel
>"a few times"
Embarrassing.

>Shame on me for expecting good gameplay and complaining when there is none
alright i'm going to make this marginally more understandable for you then go to sleep because this is like talking to a rock
genocide is not a full play through
it is supplemental
the biggest entertainment value is that things are majorly different from a normal play through
you dont like the grinding and you are not supposed to, its blatantly boring because its constantly trying to disuade you, through boredom, to not kill until you cant kill anything else
narrative wise you are hunting down every monster until none are left (that means theyre harder to find because theres less of them) then you come up against the only two people who can challenge you in the whole underground because the monsters are not vicious tough guys, theyre fuckin dorks
youre dumb and i'm tired

you kill everything in like one hit. it didn't feel like it took any time at all.

if you start killing shit but having hit the quote yet, she does actually try to kill you. its not like the normal toriel fight where she intentionally misses you. that and i dont play bullet hells

The genocide route was just a lazy marketing tactic (that worked really fucking well). Everyone came into it because they heard it's a weird RPG where you can slaughter every character, but the whole route is basically just 2 boss fights.

The statement it makes comes at the cost of the route being shitty, which you admit yourself so you already agree with me. Whether something is intentionally trying to be shitty or not doesn't factor into the equation. All you're saying is it's okay for it to be shitty, the only difference is your reasoning changes from one excuse to another with each post.
Good night, retard.

and all you fucking say is its bad, fuck you

underage pls, you're making me laugh

The genocide route is objectively bad. It has about an hour of actual content (not counting filler) and that's only because of difficulty. Ignoring that it's shorter. Undertale's biggest flaw in every route is the lack of meaningful content but it's especially pronounced in the genocide route.

It's the unfortunate part of the game being made by one guy. He couldn't afford to take another year to flesh out the game. I'm sure he realized that most people would just play neutral/pacifist so he put all his effort in there and didn't bother much with genocide. In fact I think the only reason he included a genocide route at all is because he knew it would be great for marketing, and it was.

>it has a lot to say, but the biggest statement is about games in general. like you get EXP, but it stands for extermination points instead of experience points. and you gain LOVE, but it stands for LEVEL OF VIOLENCE.
>its very much a meta-game. its self aware to an obnoxious extent.

Yeah like four years after Paper Mario Sticker Star did the same.

>Game literaly tells you that you need to talk to monsters
>WHY GAME PUNISHING ME?

That's what satire is.

And it sucked. If it brought to light the issue while still maintaining an enjoyable gameplay experience, then it would be both satire and also enjoyable. But since it's not, it is only satire, and not enjoyable.

too bad its the worst PM game.

its not meant to be enjoyable. its not meant to be a typical game. its basically an anti-game. if you were looking for a normal game for entertainment sake, undertale isn't for you.

if you don't care about its story and what it does with its meta-narrative style, then you are just wasting your time.

I thought it was enjoyable. The grinding gets the message across but wasn't so bad. The enjoyable part is the couple boss fights and story content, of which the grinding is a part. It's not much but the whole thing only takes a couple hours.

Sometimes things can be good by being intentionally bad. Not because of the badness but because of the intention and the other forms of enjoyment derived from it. You claimed some other guy's stance is that bad gameplay is justified when it serves the story/message. In this case, yes, it is.

Okay, that's fine.
Incidentally, I have a pet reason why it's allowed to indulge its wanky meta stuff.
I fully back the argument that its a niche game. It's definitely a small game that garnered an audience above and beyond expectation. I think it's unfair to judge the game based on factors the dev couldn't have been aware of. Information like that changes the equation significantly. Small games tend to be kinda shit in the grand scheme of things actually. But it's a kind of shit that someone out there will love, e.g. me.
I suppose the fact that the game gained so much success complicates that, since it's success may affect the design of other games. I'm not particularly worried though, any indie dev competent enough to make a good game wouldn't blindly follow the leader. That's not how they succeed.

>if you were looking for a normal game for entertainment sake, undertale isn't for you
Fuck are you talking about, there are mechanics in place for both attacking and evading enemy attacks, and they're fun to use. What purpose does this statement even serve?

I'm arguing against that notion. Saying "in this case, yes, it is" is the equivalent of saying "no you're wrong".

yes it has a system, all games do inherently, but toby specifically chose to use that system to service the narrative and not the other way around like a typical game would.

again, if you want something more than a short, shallow game about meta narratives, undertale isn't. for. you.

Take something like Kelly comics. If you just take them literally, they're awful. They're everything that is wrong with political comics. But that's the whole point, it's a send-up. It's pointing out how bad this shit is by emulating the badness to a hilarious degree. It's satire.

It is reasonable then, for a satirical game that's meta-narrative is explicitly about bad gameplay to actually include some bad gameplay. If you don't have that it's not satire, it's just idle commentary. It doesn't drive the point home in the same way. It's like saying "why can't kelly parody bad political comics by making good political comics?" It is the badness which makes them good.

If you don't think there's any value in satire at all, or that gameplay is sacred and should -never- be satirized, then that's a matter of taste.

Something can be both satire and bad
They're not mutually exclusive

>yes it has a system, all games do inherently, but toby specifically chose to use that system to service the narrative and not the other way around like a typical game would.

Yeah but in doing so its so clunkily implemented that an even actual power gamer or level grinder would never unintentionally get the genocide route.

A real statement would reflect the current RPG audience and make it so that people who are used to EXP and levels get their usual habits will lead them towards genocide. It should have became easier to clear out a room of monster as you did it your EXP reward and LV should have increased faster and faster as you cleared out a room.

But with those comics, you still get something out of it. They're still funny. They're funny because of how bad they are, yeah, but they're still funny in the end. Genocide isn't really fun except for two parts.
Some have argued the dialog makes it enjoyable, but I don't agree. I don't find it fun, and I think there's ways to make it fun without compromising the point of it, and because of this I think the current implementation of genocide is lazy. That's my stance.

Then no play fucking genocide, the game tell you to don't fucking play it, flowey told you

I have a feeling that kick starter devs get an adrenaline rush from this shit.
They have to fucking know that furrys will come swarming if they give you the opportunity to add your OC to a game.

You could argue that you're getting something out of the grinding too. Not fun, I guess, but something. An appreciation, of sorts. Like, why do people watch sad movies even though doing so makes them sad? It has some value that's not immediately obvious or describable. Maybe there's beauty in it, maybe it gave them some insight into the world, or themselves. Maybe it was just a really great story and the sadness was needed for effect. A similar idea is in play here.

he planted his load at the end of the game
that's where the only meat to the genocide route is

I kind of suspect the opposite. That they're innocent and have no idea of the horrifying extents to which furries will go to shove their OCs everywhere even in non-porn contexts.

youtube.com/watch?v=495MUfrcbMc

>Maybe there's beauty in it, maybe it gave them some insight into the world, or themselves. Maybe it was just a really great story and the sadness was needed for effect.
I understand what you're saying, but I just don't agree. The game was filled with too much intentionally subversive shit that it made all of the stuff it tried to be sincere about sound like a joke to me. Even if I did like the story, I definitely wouldn't find anything in the game insightful outside of, like, a game development standpoint. It's literally "love beats hate 100% of the time", which isn't to say that makes the story it's trying to tell bad, but it doesn't translate into any real world message, or at least one of any substance.

You Keep using shitty and unfun as the same words.
The Point of the run is being unfun. But the message behind it makes it not shitty.

>The Point of the run is being unfun.
Agreed. The message doesn't make up for it though. It's still trash.