How come Todd hasn't yet realized how retarded TES's levelling system is?

How come Todd hasn't yet realized how retarded TES's levelling system is?

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He probably hasn't played the game before. I've only worked on two AAA games, but one of them the director never played the game even once and it fucked over the whole production

If youre min maxing in an elder scrolls game youre missing the point. Its supposed to be an immersive roleplay experience

Individual skill leveling is fine, but wrapping the stat leveling up in it was retarded.
Perks are an okay idea but they need to be a bit more freeform and world-involved. Like if you want a perk that lets you place items into people's pockets it should require training from a thieve's guild.

Skyrim had the most balanced levelling system compared to morrowind and oblivion (at least before the legendary update), in morrowind and oblivion you could literally max everything while in skyrim there was only 80 perk points and like 250 perks, which means even if you levelled every skill to the max than you couldn't be a master of everything while in morrowind or oblivion as long as you are smart with your levelling (and spend a heap on training) than you could reasonably max everything.

Spill us your secrets, friend! What games?

Two recent final fantasy games

It works fine in non retarded games.

Yet the leveling system itself has one of the least retarded features. That is leveling up by playing the game and not by doing quests. That''s how a real rpg should be. Most "rpgs" basically make you do quests to level up so you can't do your own thing. You can completely ignore a majority of the quests in the game and roleplay properly.

Also I wish Skyrim's abilities in the skill trees made larger impacts on that playstyle. Some things I saw are even misleading and don't do much of anything.

Remove level ups for fatigue, health, and magicka and remove level scaling. problem mostly solved.

...

>TEA game set in Elsweyr. We planned three of them.
>TEA3: Paradise Sugar (which was totally meant to sound like a JRPG title; the idea was that every third installment was extra alien)
Zenimax shut this down because Redguard didn't sell

>I talked with Kurt about a whole mental anguish thing that happened to the world of TES after Talos was shot out of heaven by the Thalmor.
>Short version: any attempt to draw the old red diamond would invariably end up failing.
>Ex: A painter would paint it. The paint would set. The paint would crack and move. The final painting would be a 2D explosion. More Talos despair would set in.
>Ex: Blacksmiths would forge the symbol. The metal would cool, be applied to an Imperial helmet. A brave legate would wear it. The diamond stayed on long enough to meet with a Dominion ambassador. Imperials would be all "See? Our faith in Talos is--" Legate's helmet would crack from the symbol, legate's head crushes in. More Talos despair. Dominion ambassador would smile and accept the surrender of whole legions.
>Ex: A bard, knowing the "cracking diamond effect", attempts to describe the symbol in verse, to avoid the physical danger. He performs the verse to a crowd of secret Talos worshipers. They begin to see the diamond in their minds and are overjoyed. Then the screaming starts. Two hours later, a throng of headless corpses are found, strewn diamond-pattern in a courtyard. Other worshipers arrive to look on them, seeing a sign of their god in the bodies of his martyrs. Crowds gather at this holy site. Dominion lets the hope set in, declares small doubt in the finality of Talos' erasure. People go "whoa" and flock to the site. Thalmor button is pressed. The new settlement blows up as anything around the diamond shape regards it in a chain-reaction explosion of viscera, language, spellfire. Half a province surrenders to the Thalmor.
>Parts of Game: Skyrim would show all of this in mechanical terms. The LDB would have to learn how to successfully craft the diamond shape without danger. They would have to avoid certain "latent diamond traps", etc.
>Was awesome idea. Was also... technically difficult. Was also radical. Is saved for a future game or DLC.
cut because engine is crap

Skyrim levelling was far and beyond better than Morrowind/Oblivion's absolute trainwreck of a system.

Morrowind just got to cover it up better because it wasn't riddled with scaling.

>inb4 he worked on Theaterythm and 4 heroes of light and considers them AAA games

Not really true. You could max out each individual stat, but you only had so many levels and with how Major and Minor Skills worked you could literally not max out every Attribute. So you couldn't technically master every skill. You might have been able if Intelligence or Strength weren't at max then technically your Spells or Melee skills weren't "mastered."

The problem with Skyrim's leveling system has to do with number issues and perks being bad. It's not conceptually shit: a slowed down leveling speed + Disparity + a good perk mod kills the problem dead.

People keep buying his game

>play Oblivion/Morrowind for the first time
>remake your character because after the first 10 hours you realise you don't use some of your major skills
>Play Skyrim
>stick with the same character and use what ever I like
Don't know about you homo but I think Skyrim got it right

legendary skills only exist in skyrim. the traditional TES leveling system doesn't give you a choice of perks.

>Like if you want a perk that lets you place items into people's pockets it should require training from a thieve's guild.
I remember how Oblivion locked enchanting behind about ten Mage's Guild quests. I'm not going through that kind of bullshit again.

If you planned your levelling you could get 10 stat boosts every level and one for luck, you could get 100 in every attribute (I don't remember if there is a cap but once you hit 100 you are pretty much perfect at it anyway).

Legendary skills didn't exist in original skyrim, in original skyrim you had a limited number of perks to distribute.

People bitch about Skyrim getting rid of classes, but classes in TES were always meaningless.

Classes went into negative meaningless because it was more beneficial to choose skills that you didn't use in oblivion, shit was fucked.

what do you mean original skyrim? i've only ever played vanilla skyrim. which certainly does have a limited amount of perks. but in the older games you couldn't choose where and when to activate them, they were automatic upon reaching a certain skill level.

Legendary skills were added in a patch like a year and a half later, it wasn't designed like that originally.

>how retarded Skyrim's leveling system is

FTFY

perks that basically equal "this does more damage" add literally nothing to the experience and that's how most of Skyrim's perk's felt to me. They didn't change the way I played the game at all, just made me marginally more effective at X activity. Any bonuses you get are negated, anyway, thanks to fact that everything levels up with you. There wasn't any form of customization, the same way character creation provided no class customization.

Morrowind was great for its huge and diverse number of skills but Oblivion really hit a sweet spot, I think.

The only real problem with skyrim's perk system is that there needs to be a fully fleshed out unarmed skill with its own tree, and the werewolf and vampire trees needed to be actual fully functioning skills with bigger trees, like having them level just by doing damage in those forms, not just doing specific things. They also needed to make it so you could eventually get a werewolf perk after leveling the skill enough so that you could transform between werewolf and human at will, like with the vampire lord form. Spells also needed to be completely reworked with how the damage scaled, but that's a simple fix with mods on PC. In all honesty, Skyrim's leveling and character building is very close to being perfect.

well despite how you "feel", the fact is you're wrong, there are like 6 perks that are just flat damage increases, unless you count the werewolf and vampire perks, and if you want to count the restoration perk that increases healing done then that's 7, if you want to count the armor perks that are just flat armor increases, then that's 9
the point is, there are a lot of perks that aren't just % increases of effectiveness, you sound like you played the game for a couple hours then quit and just decided to parrot Sup Forums memes for the past 5 years

You can't even be a proper thief in this game, since there is no dodge option, like there was in previous games and nothing to level up, besides health, magic or stamina. And by the time you'll feel like a proper thief you'll be level 20.
Lockpicking tree is also 100% useless.

Enchanting being locked behind anything doesn't make any sense. According to in-game books for the entire series it's something a total moron could end up doing accidentally.

an user said that spamming muffle had been patched, is that true?

>Skyrim's leveling and character building is very close to being perfect.
I'm generally not a fan of perk systems for RPGs, but I have to agree. The only thing I don't like about Skyrim's perks are the damage boosting ones. They're basically just dump stats in perk form that you NEED to be able to do damage as you level up more. I think it would be better if your damage ups were tied to level specific perks. A little or no boost initially, and then a boost at 25-50-75-100.

Well XII is certainly made by some idiot that never played it.

The fucking port is a joke.

perks were a great idea, they were just implemented horribly in skyrim. had they been on the level and style of new vegas the perk system could've been awesome.

give us more perks like decapitation, eagle eye, shadow warrior, and shield charge and none of that "do what you're already doing 10% better" garbage.

Isn't there like 20 "Magic spells of this school + level cost 50% less magicka to cast"? You're really underplaying just how many of them are numberwank.

>skyrim
>balanced
>weapon stats gained from sharpening far surpass base stats and any combat related buffs gained from combat related skills
>a legendary blacksmith with 0 combat expertise can hammer his smelly goat leather armor and grind his iron sword to be stronger in combat than a legendary swordsman clad in full ebony armor and weapon

Not even min maxing, its just leveling up one single fucking skill. Enjoy your "immersive experience". fag.

engine not crap, bethesda is
for proofs see everything even semi competent modders managed to do with just the compiled binaries compared to what bethesda does

I think it would have been better if they had like one perk in each weapon tree that branched off to the side by itself from the first or second perk, and when you put one point into it, it does something like 5% more damage with that weapon type for each perk spent in the tree, maybe 2.5% per point and have it able to take another point to make it 5%

honestly the only thing that really bothers me is how destruction spell damage doesn't scale with the skill level, so no matter how high of a level your character is, your fireballs will never do more than a fixed amount of damage, unless you want to go full autistic and make a million potions to carry around

if they just came out with a patch that added an unarmed tree and made destruction spell damage scale with the skill and then some kind of spell crafting like oblivion had, even if it was kind of simplistic, Skyrim would be in my top 5 games of all time immediately

I forgot to add that for more proofs see:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamebryo
Again, stop blaming gamebryo when it's just fucking bethesda's poojeets

I've got about 350 hours played in skyrim. Even if there were only a few flat damage bonuses, there were a lot of equally lazy ones like "swords do negligible amounts of bleed now" followed by "swords do marginally more yet still negligible amounts of bleed or "this costs marginally less magicka now" etc. I'd go back and point out all the stupid ones but actually could not care less

stealth and subtlety has no place in the modern action RPGs. I mean, it's even getting rooted out of stealth games. Look at Assassin's Creed Oranges or Dishonored 2. Neither of them incentivize stealth in any way, it's easier and quicker just to kill things.

>Skyrim's leveling and character building is very close to being perfect
Are you fucking serious? Do you want TES to be a shitty action game?
Skyrim has no character building. You're starting as a nobody and become master of everything by the end. There are no options to let other people do something, such as forging your weapons or enchanting items for you, because you're expected to be good at everything. It's a gary stu simulator at best

yes, but those actually server a purpose and make sense if you think about it, they're intended to gate the spell tiers so a level 5 character isn't casting mass paralysis or firestorm, they're not really comparable to the damage increases from the weapon trees

>honestly the only thing that really bothers me is how destruction spell damage doesn't scale with the skill level, so no matter how high of a level your character is, your fireballs will never do more than a fixed amount of damage, unless you want to go full autistic and make a million potions to carry around
Same thing for the other schools as well. Armor spells should last longer with higher Alteration skill. Short-lived buffs that you have to recast every minute are really annoying.

why do they need perks to keep level 5s from being overpowered? how does a level 5 have the mana to cast the spell or the money to buy the spell? it kinda sounds like they're using lazy perks to cover for lazy design when you put it that way

>how does a level 5 have the mana to cast the spell or the money to buy the spell?
The spell won't even be available for purchase at level 5.

What's the best graphics mod for Morrowind? I don't want any mods that change gameplay since I'm playing it for the first time and I don't want any graphically changes that drastically alter the artstyle (since it's my first time) but I just want the game to look as good as possible in 2018.

I really think people overstate how many Skyrim characters end up as masters of everything. I don't play the game like that.

It’s harder to a master of everything in skyrim than the other games because you have to pick and choose what you dedicate your perk points to.

Just grab MGSO, it has everything you need. Sadly the installer doesn't really like to work on everyone's machine nowadays. If it gives you trouble just uninstall it completely and install its components individually. You should be able to find them on a wiki or something.

Does it work if I'm installing Morrowind via Steam?

It should work as fine as it does for anyone else. The problem is with Windows' permission BS. It locks up my computer at every step even if I turn it off. It works fine for some people though.

Now that I look at this list of mods, you should probably just try and finegle MGSO no matter what wiki.openmw.org/index.php?title=MGSO

Anyway, MGSO is hands-down your best bet for a lore-friendly experience. Looks about as good as vanilla Oblivion. Also install this patch afterwards or you'll encounter some missing textures, because MGSO hasn't been supported since Churchill was still kicking around.
download.fliggerty.com/download-13-726

Thanks, I'll go with that then.

They don't because enchantments (even natty ones on equips you obtain) makes magicka a total fucking dump stat seeing as Health/Stamina are universally useful with HP being always wanted and sprinting + inventory room coming from Stamina while Magicka is literally only useful when casting spells and you can do that without perk and stat investment due to the aforementioned equips.

You only need Alchemy and Enchament.. Then you're good at everything.

I forgot to add that through all those downsides magick wasn't even more powerful than swording, which would have at least made it somewhat of a decent tradeoff. As it stands investing in magick in Skyrim is the brainlet choice which is ironic.

Have you even played the other games? The way progression works in Morrowind and Oblivion means that if you don't utilize the character build you picked at the start of the game, you fall egregiously behind in effectiveness as you level up. In Morrowind it's no big deal because it's completely unleveled - you just need to grind a bit more. But in Oblivion, since everything levels up around you, if you fuck it up you're just going to become useless.

Meanwhile in Skyrim you don't have classes, you have three rocks to choose from
we've really come a long way haven't we

>it's completely unleveled
No, there is level scaling, it's just not as dramatic as oblivion's level scaling

reminder that todd's favorite elder scrolls is arena and he has no freedoms to make good games now
help todd

I'm not gonna buy your fucking game

don't buy his game
set him free

any source/info for that? I haven't found anything to suggest there are leveled creatures anywhere in morrowind. Leveled loot here and there, but not for enemies.

>can't even be a proper thief
>you'll feel like a proper thief
I fucked up. You'll never feel like a proper thief, you're going to be a hybrid of warrior and thief at best

And skyrim is better, you still have to make choices with regards to how you build your character but this time the choices are made throughout the game rather than at the very beginning, you still can't really be good at everything any more than you could in oblivion or morrowind.

actually like mentioned, enchanting and alchemy can be synergized and suddenly you can do anything without investing in it.

in a good rpg you feel like your character has a backstory, a reason for approaching his tasks the way he does. because he is of a certain CLASS thus he possesses a certain skill set. I understand that some people don't want to spend an hour thinking about how they're going to play. but that's tough shit.

So it isn't any different to morrowind or oblivion then, alchemy breaks morrowind even more than it does to skyrim, how is this relevant?

>because he is of a certain CLASS thus he possesses a certain skill set.
That doesn't really apply in TES. Every character can use every skill regardless of class. It's not like D&D or something where different classes get completely unique abilities.

Skyrim had tons of features removed specifically because they would break the game and then the game gets borked anyways.

in older TES games if you didn't minmax you might as well just commit seppuku because your character was fucked forever

but depending on your class you can get a significant head start compared to other characters, and start using your preferred skills right away. yeah you can create a thief and then grind spears for 6 hours but why the hell would you?

you're not even giving examples or evidence at this point you're just repeating your original argument. The previous system forces decision-making at every level with harsh consequences for not doing so. The player is punished for poor planning or a poor understanding of the system. But if "do I want 10% bleed or 10% attack speed" is a really tough choice for you, you're probably better of sticking with skyrim

You build your own concept of a class. Building a character as a warrior and then trying to branch out into magic is possible, but extremely punishing. If you don't pick, say, destruction as at least a minor skill, you will have an extremely rough time ever getting it high enough to be effective - not to mention that you'll have trouble getting your intelligence up to even cast those spells. If you build a mage but then realize that not having a reliable weapon skill is shit, you're boned. It's not a strict class system as some RPGs have but it does lock the player in to a specific skillset.

Enemies themselves aren't leveled (i.e. there's no stronger/weaker versions of the same enemy type), but there are some special spawns (which are literally represented in the mod kit as "ninja monkeys") which spawn a randomized level-appropriate creature. This is why you don't start seeing golden saints in the overworld until you're leveled up.

>TES3 has a very detailed leveling system with lots of options, but leaves players feeling like they have to minmax
>TES4 has a more streamlined system, and reaching levels 75 and 100 gives you extremely strong special abilities like being able to jump off water
>TES5 has the least options and the perks system completely prevents players from trying out alternate skills, since most skills are trash without the perks

That's fair. I always assumed it was based on areas because it's pretty predictable where the player will end up by level x.

user gets it
+rep

>over time creating an in house development tool that removes the need to actually program in c++ (gambryo is just libraries)
>be surprised that their games get simpler

But it's one of the games only good points.

I just use the Oblivion/Morrowind leveling mods.
Also, if anyone could take a guess as to why my game instantly crashes after I install ENB through Mod Manager, that would be great. My only guess is that Vivid Weathers is doing it, if that's the case, then an alternate weather mod would be nice.

Too bad Oblivion fucked it up with the level scaling.
>Level 1 in Oblivion
>Sneak up behind a goblin and backstab it with an iron dagger
>It dies instantly
>Get to level 20
>Sneak up behind a goblin and backstab it with a daedric dagger
>It loses 10% of its health, turns around and starts going apeshit. Cue a 2-minute battle where I swing my dagger 1000 times to wipe out the rest of its health.

Yeah I know what's happening, there's an error because you're playing TEShit instead of a good videogame

Playing with Requiem makes me think that a perk system can work in a RPG.

However, i would like a perk system like Gothic 1 & 2 where you need masters that teachs you how to perform X thing.

It was inefficient to not min-max in Morrowind, but the consequences weren't so bad that it was totally necessary. The scaling isn't harsh enough that you can't get around it, and no matter how poorly you level up you can eventually get your stats to reasonable levels.

>play shitrim
>want to be a fucking wizard
>forced to abandon one school of magic because there literally aren't enough perk points in the game to level every one up

>skyrim
>tough build

Fuck you smoking?
>get +% damage for your weapon
>if you want even more damage level up blacksmithing, obviously
>avoid destruction because skill level reduces mana cost instead of boosting damage turning it into a snooze fest
>get sneak shit on top if you're bored
You literally can't lose. Even if you're getting absolutely fucked you just level up black smithing and craft fuckstrong gear. Source is when i played no-bow dick ass thief and when i got tired of sneaking sharpened ebinite suddenly turned me into death destroyer of worlds.

You still have to be selective in how you dedicate your perks. If you maxed every skill you would have 80 perks points, there are over 250 perks.

minmaxing is for MMOs pretending to be RPGs. it's not about maths, it's about a basic understanding of the system. If you're smart enough not to roll warrior and then make a snap decision as soon as you get your first levelup to switch to a destruction mage, you're gonna be fine.

Good thing there's no longer any boring "mysticism" school to bog you down. who needs the most diverse and interesting one of them all amirite?

it's really funny to me that they remove cool shit like levitate. it's just to cover their asses because they can't design a game not to break the second someone can move vertically.

What's wrong with the port? This is a legitimate question, not an argument.

>they remove cool shit
Unfortunately, that's what bethesda does, and I don't think they'll stop. We've lost 2 magic schools already. Which one will be third, I wonder

This basically, the strongest combat skills in the game are blacksmithing, enchanting and alchemy. Sneak comes second, and everything else, including all magic, is useless.

At least without moding.

>they can't design a game not to break the second someone can move vertically.
That's far more difficult than you seem to realize.

TES's leveling system is great, you level up skills by using them

>How come Todd hasn't yet realized how retarded TES's levelling system is?

it's SUPPOSED to be retarded. it's aimed at the lowest common denominator.

Do carry limits and equipment durability have any value in games like this? People seem to dislike these mechanics a lot, but at the same time I know better than to just dismiss everything that people dislike as worthless, because that's how you get shit like global fast travel and waymarkers. But I also can't really see what these particular systems add to the game, unless you're especially fond of the realism aspect. Would you keep this stuff around if you were directing a new TES?

Not him but nigga there wasn't even any puzzles that would be an problem. Only issue was the fact they had to pander to potato consoles and move all the cities into closed worldspaces.

>what are legendary skills

This.
If you just slap the flying option on the game it will break it, even if you prepare the game for it somehow - see flying mounts in WoW. Only way flying will not break the game is to include it in is to make it a core design and build on it.

is referring to

Lolnope
Everything bethesda says is hard is just them being stupid.
Obsidian was able to make a lever action work with 2 lines of code.
Bethesda claimed that this was too hard, and again proved they were incapable of it with fallout 4.

There's other examples like modders uncommenting, debugging, and implimenting the code for blocking healing during brawls, all the dll injections to make skyrim actually scale with performance, forcing it to not rendering things that aren't on the screen (which is ancient, it's been a thing since forever), etc.

With each level up the number of skill increases required to level up increases. It requires more than 1000 skill legendary in order to get enough perk points to unlock every perk.

>In order to gain all 251 perks available, a skill must be made Legendary a total of 146 times, or between 8-9 times for each skill, if starting at level 81. While there is no maximum level cap, reaching level 252 is sufficient to gain all perks.
Where the fuck did you even pull 1000 from?