What does Sup Forums think of post-processing and it's increasingly high presence in the industry ?

what does Sup Forums think of post-processing and it's increasingly high presence in the industry ?

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youtube.com/watch?v=BCZ2OGOBdLQ
blog.radiator.debacle.us/2017/07/toward-honesty-of-pixels-on-final.html
youtube.com/watch?v=BXzJ0wFj-ag
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Utter trash most of the time.
I miss clear, high fidelity visuals with naked normalmaps and shading of mid-00s. And I especially miss working, non-PP AA.

>non-PP AA
this almost seems like a niche at this point, some games don't even ship with it anymore

Normal AA is literally dead, pretty much almost nothing uses it these days.
At best you get supersampling with option to pair it with post process AA or turn off the post process one and keep just supersampling, but MSAA is basically dead.

Blame consoles.

>some games don't even ship with it anymore
that's because everyone and their moms tend to either use full deferred shading, which practically renders especially MSAA useless, or the game's so ""console optimized"" that anything outside of FXAA or TSAA would kill the performance completely.

>Blame consoles.
Yeah, pretty much this in a nutshell. Still, I'd rather blame the lazy ass AAA devs that design (badly) for the consoles.

One reason I'm such a fan of studios like Croteam; true bros of PC gaming, their games look and run superb even on shitty machines, and their options menus have insane amount of settings to tweak to your liking. Hell, SS3 and Talos shipped with THREE different AA settings + 3D rendering resolution options!

It's not consoles, it's modern deferred rendering making them either nigh-impossible to implement or shitty with a massive performance hit.

It's allright as long as they give the option to tweak or turn off every single effect and let you inject your own.

It's been 11 years since pic related, and it's still as stupid as back then. Nowadays, we just have to also deal with Chromatic Aberration, DOF blur, motion blur, and vignette. Most of them being used only to hide the truly shitty textures and lack of real lighting.

Post processing is a good thing. You simply don't want to be stupid with it.

>it's modern deferred rendering making them either nigh-impossible to implement or shitty with a massive performance hit.
That's pretty much what I said in .
It still does not negate the fact that many devs have had no problems providing superior graphics and visual style, without succumbing to vaseline smearing filters.

Fixt

our gpus can render games at higher resolutions than they could 10 years ago, MSAA is less important because of that.

it's 2018, it's time to move on to 1440p or higher.

I realised when Oblivion came out that bloom was a mistake.

>it's 2018, it's time to move on to 1440p or higher.
this is literally why we don't get good games anymore
fuck your graphics, try creating some good GAMES instead

>implying jaggies and shimmering just disappear at 1440p or even 4k
I remember when 1080p was supposed to be good enough to deal with jaggies some decade ago. It really wasn't, and still ain't, especially on any screen larger than 20" .

In fact, the increased use of post-processing effects and dither-based shader effects have introduced tons of brand NEW kind of jaggies and shimmering in vidya.

The sad part is how far from realistic this is too. The flashlight would change the lighting of the entire area, not just put a line of light where the flashlight is pointing.

Eh

>resolution = graphics
>in a discussion about MSAA
user what did you mean by this post

Yeah 1080p looks like shit. The reason people whine about no MSAA is because they still think that resolution is somehow acceptable and don't understand how to supersample.

And yeah, console games especially are plagued with aliasing issues because of all the artistic choices devs end up going with. Bloodborne is a good example of disgusting presentation at 1080p, there are 720p games with more clarity than it.

I do believe we already came to the conclusion of "perfect realism" not being the thing most games should try to aim at. Great, distinct visual style, maybe packing some cutting edge effects, will age much better and make the games more enjoyable in the long run as well.

This does not mean you need to go all-out cartoony celshading with everything; games like Silent Hill 3 still look great and very "realistic", but their strong art-directing and smart design choices in general still result an impressive looking game.

Talos Principle was made by cro team, right? The same guys from serious sam?
Because Serious sam 3 engine has one of the most extensive graphical options i ever seen. The only thing that annoyed me was the lack of motion blur

>Talos Principle was made by cro team, right? The same guys from serious sam?
Yes.
And both Sam4 and Talos2 are in the works as we speak

>Because Serious sam 3 engine has one of the most extensive graphical options i ever seen.
true, and Talos has all the same + a lot more.

>lack of motion blur
>annoying
are you OK in the head, mate?

It's shit. But it makes for decent (and impressive-looking) screenshots, without costing notable processing power. So it's here to stay, given how shit modern consoles are.

what game is this?

an Asian MMO.

>le deferred rendering meme
Except there's plenty DX10/11-only games with deferred rendering that have MSAA implemented properly just fine. The only difference between MSAA before and after deferred rendering is that before deferred rendering you didn't need to do anything to implement it, it was a simple on/off thing for 2x/4x etc.
For deferred, it has to be manually coded by the programmers into the renderer, and most don't do it because it's extra work for something that would be PC exclusive and PC is not where the money is, consoles are, so most don't bother because consoles can't handle it and as such it would be pointless.
So no, it's not because of deferred rendering, it's still purely because of consoles.

SS4 fucking when

Q1 2019

>>lack of motion blur
>>annoying
>are you OK in the head, mate?
Maybe i played too much Source Engine games as a teen, but i like a slightly motion blur when moving the mouse quick enough.
Ss3 felt a little too janky. Perhaps if i had a 144 fps monito it wouldn't be an issue, butbi dont

tweaking Croteam games is almost more fun than playing them.

>Maybe i played too much Source Engine games as a teen
you some GenZ kid by any chance?
I miss the days when Source did not have any motion blur and barely any PP effects in general.

>Ss3 felt a little too janky. Perhaps if i had a 144 fps monito it wouldn't be an issue, butbi dont
I'm genuinely now afraid of you. You must not be healthy.

>I just love my image being smeared with vaseline when movement happens!
Now I've heard it all; people actually defending post processing trash.

i have two riddick games which one to play first?

Shitty asian mmo good just for screenshots with a pop-up that will make you eyes bleed

>I miss the days when Source did not have any motion blur and barely any PP effects in general.
I remember source having slightly MB from 2007 at the latest. Tf2, portal, zombie panic source, insurgency, and so on all had it.
Also i was typing like a retard because i had to go to the bathroom

>what does Sup Forums think of post-processing
I think it's a cheap and easy way of hiding imperfections because whoever is making the game can't make it well

The worst thing is now HD remaster of all games are raping old games with added post processing, pic related. It's like there's vaseline on the screen and that's with all post process options that the game let me turn off actually being turned off (Glare, Soft Particles, Depth of Field).

black desert?

That really sucks man, I was hoping it would be definitive visuals wise but PS2 still looks better.

Textures and overall look is much better, but I really hate the post processing. I wish someone would mod it out. The shitty thing is that both Lightning Returns remaster on PC as well as FF10 HD both let you turn off the post processing.
This one doesn't, at least not all of it.

Escape from butcher bay

>don't understand how to supersample.
That would be me. Can you give me a quick rundown? How's the performance hit?

Nah man the textures are fucked up. They either are embossed or over-sharpened, or both. Without that blur it would look even worse some of the time. Makes me sad since FF12 can look really nice on PCSX2 but there's also a depth of field issue in that version.

forums.guru3d.com/threads/nvidia-compatibility-bits-master-thread-and-iq-guide.392715/
DSR nvidia
VSR amd
resolution scaling
custom resolutions
SRWE

learn to use google

They aren't "embossed" or "sharpened". They simply added normal maps to them, since PS2 didn't support necessary pixel shader to do normal maps (but GameCube and XboxHueg did).

This game had so much potential, why the fuck did they turn a revolutionary mmo that could’ve turned the tide on the dying mmo genre into just another Korean sweatshop grind mmo with lottery levels of rng

Maybe they did but either way they definitely are embossed and oversharpened. Skip to 6:00 for examples.
youtube.com/watch?v=BCZ2OGOBdLQ
Some user posted this the other day too
blog.radiator.debacle.us/2017/07/toward-honesty-of-pixels-on-final.html
They did a lot of work on the textures but they don't really look better being so noisy. It's inconsistent, blurry, muddy, etc. All kinds of negatives, just look at Ashe's skirt here(this might be not-final but it just shows how messed up their texture artists are).

They're not sharpened, this is just what normal mapping (also known as bump mapping) does.
What you're complaining about I think is that they filtered the textures to upscale them, because that's the only thing they did, using a filter similar to Waifu2x to upscale the textures. There is no sharpening.

They are user. See here, notice the whites popping out. Emboss deepens and spreads the blacks, sharpening pinches the whites. They added details to some textures so they did more than just upscaling too. To compensate for all the fuckery they did with the textures they just blurred the game to hell and back. It's so amateur it hurts.

Basically the end result is pseudo depth on textures which makes the game more modern, but now it's blurry or else the texture work would look terrible.

Not him but yeah that's bump mapping, distastefully done but it's not sharpening.

I've never seen normal maps like this before. Could someone remove them? Would that make the game look better?

>1080p looks like shit
>being this whiny and entitled

kys

It just means they made them too detailed.
A normal map looks like pic related, it tells the lighting engine how to cast the light on parts of the texture as if it was in 3D rather than flat space, giving it a pseudo 3D look.
The more detail a normal map has, the more affected the bitmap will be.

Go to nvidia panel
Activate DSR
Select some of the multipliers
Go in game
Select one of the new resolution above 1080p
Enjoy
The performance hit is very significant for newer games

How is it whiny or entitled when I can just increase the resolution.

And here's an example of normal maps being used in a different game, the game in question is STALKER.
What you're looking at is a 100% flat surface, the bricks aren't modelled at all. It's a flat brick texture with a normal map applied to it, which gives an illusion of looking 3D.

...

I don't care I just want FC gameplay - not that Ubisoft tower in le open world meme shit/

I know what they are but isn't this a PS2 game, did they overhaul the engine to such an extent? That blog link said basically what I've been saying since the first trailer came out.

That is not normal mapping, it's post processing sharpening.

This guy generally knows what he is talking about but misunderstands what he is seeing. That FF12 image is clearly postprocess sharpening.

>blame consoles
>posts a game that also released on consoles

Blame devs/publishers

You missed out on the early days of MGE and OBGE when we first got to use all those shaders even before most AAA games had them.

Release order.
Gameplay is substantially different in the second.

Yeah that's how I feel too. I've messed around with this stuff in post and in texture mods, and my shitty work gives better results than what I'm seeing in FF12.

And here's another example.
Top left is just diffuse texture bitmap.
Top right is with normal mapping (also known as bump mapping).
The bottom ones are variants of Parallax Mapping which is a more advanced form of Normal Mapping.

They overhauled the renderer adding new features.

Mate check my screenshot here there is no sharpening, in fact quite the opposite, there's some blurry post processing going on making it look like vaseline. That guy that posted the comparison picked some extremely shitty artifacted screenshots from a youtube video so of course it looks like shit.

Thats parallax occlusion mapping dumbass

Which uses normal maps you idiot. Normal maps used for bump and parallax mapping are exactly the same, only the shader is different.

>Moses talking to the burning bush.jpg

>That FF12 image is clearly postprocess sharpening.
Explain why the character and the floor below it doesn't have the white lines

well theres clearly no normal mapping going on in the screenshot you just sent me to

all this misses the big issue: Why does ff12 suck so much and is a kingdoms of amalur-ass single player MMO?

thats not a normal map. Normal maps only represent angle information - this uses some form of height displacement map.

>That guy that posted the comparison picked some extremely shitty artifacted screenshots from a youtube video so of course it looks like shit.
No I didn't.. And there are more textures than in that picture of yours there. Go through your gallery, you'll see.

The technique is called parallax occlusion mapping period.
What it uses is irrelevant.
The act of fucking is penetration penis in vagina,it is still called fucking despite using your mother for her vagina.

Riddick came out in 2004 not 2001. This however was leaked in 2002 youtube.com/watch?v=BXzJ0wFj-ag

There is no sharpening here though, all I see is filtered texture with normal maps.

You're arguing pointless shit, we're talking purely about the textures here, both bump mapping and parallax mapping use the same type of texture map - namely a normal map, which is what's added in the FF12 HD as original PS2 FF12 had no normal maps.

Daily reminder that Resurrection of Evil was the true Doom 3.

>Which uses normal maps you idiot
Misleading. Normal maps are just that, normals. It doesn't inherently contain height information, which is needed for parallax occlusion, though this may or may not be combined with the normal map.

you dont use normal maps for parallax occlusion, you use a height (displacement) map

>all I see is filtered texture
Yes, filtered through emboss and sharpening filters.

Dude you have fallacies in the way you think.
I see that you just _have_ to be right.
Have at it you pathetic sack of shit.

all that info is in the normal map.

different user here.
Bump mapping and parallax mapping actually use different maps. Bump mapping uses a normal map (angle information) while parallax mapping uses a displacement map (height information)

No it uses normal maps.
Like paining that uses colors even though there are acrylic,oil paintings ect.
I am ALWAYS RIGHT

You're right, it's not realistic, but it's still more advanced than what most games pass as lighting today. Can you name even one game that actually does what you described?

Normal maps only contain angle information, not height information.

explain oblivion then

#rekt

There are too many different things you can do in post processing to generalise, but I really miss when empty space was clear.

>that 4th pic
Why do we even need tessellation then?

maybe i'm not explaining it clearly - a bump map basically takes the normal (angle) information to change the way light interacts with a surface. A height map is used for parallax mapping, you can't use angle information to accurately derive height information.

Normal maps can have up to 4 channels. Only two are necessary, so you can squeeze in height information if you want.

Tessellation isn't new, AMD had it back in late 90s already. Neverwinter Nights 1, Half Life 1, Counter Strike 1.6, Return to Castle Wolfenstein and some other old games have it.

Dude fuck off it uses normal maps.

I am the user who originally brought them up and fuck you for now poorly impersonating me, seriously get cancer and die.

You are correct! you can include both normal and height information - but then it's no longer a "normal" map. Normals are only the angle information. I see what you were trying to say, you can include both height and normal information in the same map - but height and normal maps are different things.

Why you mad though?
It sound like you were wrong hmm...

>_n isn't a normal map
Yes it is. Dude you're seriously backpeddling now.

the left map is a displacement map, the right map is a normal map. The left contains height information and the right contains angle information. They are often used together - but are very different things.

It's much more demanding though right? Why is it being used instead of parallax?

I wasn't wrong. You're literally arguing semantics irrelevant to the conversation at hand with FF12.

And you're still impersonating me, now I'm going to put a trip on just to piss you off, eat shit.

>And you're still impersonating me,
What the actual fuck. Who are you that I'm impersonating? Are you high?