Is it too late to save the MMORPG genre?

Is it too late to save the MMORPG genre?

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It's really simple, actually. Leveling is archaic, for example.

There are already games very near (contemporary) MMO bliss.

Project Ascension is the best mmo right now

uo rules using wow classes/world

fuck off with tab target wow clones.
focus more on pvp and player conflict
make gear be all player made and have it be breakable.
if you do have pve, don't drop gear, only materials that enhance your craft (you can make a sword with or without a rare drop, but it'll have more stats with it)
make professions matter.
make the world dangerous

>make gear be all player made and have it be breakable
This is really helpful for defining aspects of "PvE, PvP, and economy".

How do you feel about death penalties in MMOs?
Should dying make you lose items and/or exp?

Old School Runescape unironically is the last bastion of the non-WoW-like MMO

anyone know if blade and soul is any good, i need an mmo with action combat to play
tera is dead and bdo is too p2w

That pic's about WoW *

It's possible having mobs dropping equipables, for example with multiple levels of that item.. the best coming from simple or advanced crafting.

There's a lot of this stuff with EVE:
games.chruker.dk/eve_online/market.php

>It's another PvP-based MMO episode
I know, how about this, a worldwide battle royale MMO? That would be rad!

that depends. I like the idea of easy to earn, easy to lose. if you only drop inventory on death, then your worn gear should take a durability hit. if you drop everything (or if it can be looted in pvp), including worn gear, then it shouldn't be hard to gear up again in easier to craft, but less effective gear.
as for exp, same rules apply. if I die and take a 10% exp loss, I shouldn't need to grind for 10 hours to get it back. I've played korean shit like that and it's not fun. that in mind, I'd rather see levels be something you can max out quickly, like guild wars, or have no leveling at all.

>effective

Rarities are still an option with PvE-inclusive games.

I like rarest item loot
it turns out to be more exciting and dangerous than a full loot

Catering to the casuals is a mistake. MMO should only be played by dysfunctional shut-ins.

like said, OSRS is like the only fucking good MMO right now. MMOs are bad because they are way too complicated.A good MMO has to have
A. Simple UI
B. limited paid content
C. Simple progression

otherwise it gets too complicated for your average person to get into. The more straightforward and easy to learn a game is, the more fun it is.

>It's possible having mobs dropping equipables, for example with multiple levels of that item.. the best coming from simple or advanced crafting.
I've been told that in a lot of older mmos you could get certain equips from mob drops. my problem with loot dropping from mobs is that in modern mmos, 90% of your gear comes from them. which isn't okay. you might use crafted gear to get ahead initially, but you're still grinding the same dungeons, same rare spawns, same raids just to be the best. it should be the other way around, use rare drops to give to your crafters to make the good shit.

Literally just make Ragnarok Online pre Renewal. It was the perfect MMO.

Fun gameplay
Lots of customization
Very party oriented
Elemental affinities that were a huge fucking deal
Lots of different classes to play
Extreme freedom
Amazingly involving and rewarding GvG
Perfect music

Literally no flaw except for it being grindy, and that's a subjective one.

EVE has 50% chances of dropping uniquely stacked items from the cargo, and of each module equipped. This is also true for ships getting KM'd through PvE.

Get rid of the leveling system, instead introduce a skill based training system the more you do certain things the higher your rank in that skill gets. Rank 1 archery does 4-6 damage per shot rank 2 does 5-7 etc.
Have most items in the game be able to be crafted including boss drops for dungeons and or raids(requires you to deconstruct item in order to be able to craft it)
Dont get rid of the Holy trinity(Tank, Healer, DPS) instead expand on it, have CC dedicated classes with low damage(Think controllers from CoH) or some sort of dedicated debuff class who can lower the stats of enemies(Defenders from CoH)

This is all it would take to save MMO's for me

>Dont get rid of the Holy trinity(Tank, Healer, DPS) instead expand on it, have CC dedicated classes with low damage(Think controllers from CoH) or some sort of dedicated debuff class who can lower the stats of enemies(Defenders from CoH)
I'd love to see more of this. too many classes are way too homogeneous, when they should be specialised. good at one or two things, but fall apart doing another. having to rely on your party is not a bad thing. bring MM back to MMO

So go play Mabinogi.

>Lots of customization
>Extreme freedom
>ragnarok

Why has no MMO done GvG correctly?
Hell there could be some sort of Arenas in all the major cities of a game, Guilds could challenge each other to 10v10(Size doesnt matter The matches could be 20v20 or even 5v5) to compete for ownership over hunting grounds or dungeons or hell even for special decoration pieces for the guild's Guild Hall. They could set specific dates and those dates would appear on a message board outside the arena's and other players could go to the arena's to watch guilds fight each other and place bets on the winners and other things. Guilds could use the matches for recruitment purposes.

Anime is cancer

plenty of western mmos in development that aren't EQ clones and aren't koreashit

Doesn't GW1 count?

No.

>Lots of cards
>Tons of gears and the concept of BiS barely non-existant
>Fucking WEIGHT was a factor in gear for some people

And yes you have a ton of freedom, hundred of options as to where to level, there are more than a few viable spots, and others open if you want to supplement your leveling with nice drops or other reasons. You aren't forced to follow a path.

>lots
>tons
>extreme
You need a comparison for these words to be worth, and if your reference is weak, anything is great.

This. PvP is shit in these types of games. Only faggots and children enjoy doing it because it's just a form of griefing.

I've played almost every worthwhile MMO on the market. Every single B2P and P2P and at least half a hundred F2Ps. Nothing comes close to RO's gear customization. Every single mob had a unique card with a unique effect you could slot in your gear.

And there is a ton of gear because unlike most MMOs, nothing is obsolete. As long as it has a slot for a card it has a use, even if it's a level 1 drop. So your options are very open and numerous, you don't have to go with THE highest iLVL set currently available. There's no such thing in RO, in fact most High Level items come with some downsides.

And how is it not extreme freedom if you can go everywhere your build can take you? Level accounts for NOTHING in combat calculations so if you are level 40 you can tackle level 80 areas with the right gear and build.

I find engaging other players in battle more exciting and a better test of my skill than mindlessly doing my rotation in
>le epic boss fights

Proper designs are about options though. Even with mostly-crafted economies, drops are helpful for keeping their items cheap enough for fresh characters; and equipables are often rewarding, especially with disenchantment / reprocessing.

>makes a brand new mmo
>have generic classes
>only some dungeons to do while leveling and 2-4 at end game
>one a raid at max level
>pvp is just some 10v10 capture the flag or "hold bases for points"
>$60 at release with 10-15 monthly subscription
>f2p after a year
does this describe the western development on mmos?

>pve mmos
found the problem

Make Runescape great again.

just go play PUBG if you want PvP so much you stupid faggot
PvP is trash in every MMORPG.

>test of skill
>my stats are higher and my skill macro is better than yours

Jagex needs to separate the cost of membership for osrs and new rs

>butt hurt pve players
what's the matter? get ganked and have your pride shattered?
clearly you've never played a game where group play matters. as expected of millennial shitters who only know a post-wow mmo world

yes because the majority of people want their hand held through a railroaded amusement park

Yes. Devs realized streamlined experiences make a lot more money.

>mmo
>group pvp
trashman.jpeg

No.

The plausible majority of development studios are still basing their QA on "fun", which is shown as minimally predictive of subscription trends.

>pve player needs mods to tell him what to do each phase to win
>pvp player needs to coordinate with his group and try to predict what an unpredictable human enemy might do
I know pvp might be too hard and scary for you, and that's fine. but don't try to act high and mighty about pve, because you're nothing but a brainlet. pve takes no skill, and is the lowest form of mmo interaction

In general, mmorpg players care shit about pvp outside of the occasional minigame.
It's all about the addiction to the grind.

Sure and what the current majority of mmo players find to be fun is quite different from what I found to be fun in the 90s

But then they can't lie to their stakeholders about how popular RS3 is

It's funny how every argument for wPvP boils down to the same brainlet shit of "wuts rong got clubbed by grug haha cry little baby cry" instead of arguing for why it is good design, according to them.

Cooldown and resource management is the linchpin of structured MMO PvP, in which case you're just better off playing assfaggots. You have a more tactical overview of the map, you have a smaller but more impactful number of cd abilities, player progression is per-round/match, you can pick the equivalent of characters in between games instead of grinding out levels on alts to get them to a viable state.

If you want something more chaotic, there's the flood of battle royale games that achieve the similar sensation of wandering a wide open space and finding a person to ambush. I recommend Escape from Tarkov especially since people load into a zone for PvE objectives with the risk of getting ganked.

wPvP in MMOs is just garbage almost all the time. It appeals to the lizard brain but it's short-term satisfaction on the same level as whacking a big mob to get good loot. Except mobs are infinite, but you'll eventually run out of players to gank as players leave due to disgruntlement, or reach the end of the road and no longer have a reason to return to previous zones. The longer the game goes, the more the ganker/gankee ratio will get skewed towards the former.

Then you have realm versus realm, but again, what reason does that have to be an MMO? I love RvR but they often proved to be only playable during prime time and they didn't really benefit from being in an MMO. Maybe in DaoC.

Don' waste your time

when you revolve your game around pve, then of course you'll get a player base that hardly cares about pvp.
when you make a game that requires you to grind for pve gear, then of course pvp will be considered a side attraction.
because of this grind addiction, other things like crafting professions become less and less important, because all the best gear is dropped from bosses. pve mmos are dumb, watered down games in the genre.
having a pvp focused game where all the best gear comes from crafters would do wonders for the genre. there's a grind for materials instead of boss drops. the community is more important.
making pvp important will make crafting important, the community important, and skill important.
but as you said, players are too addicted to the pve grind and don't want to change

Why does it need to RvR? Eve has wPvP and it's guild vs guild and it's contained within each individual server or realm.

No.

Biology and motivation are very similar within demographics. Playing games, itself, is based on very specific states (balanced amounts of energetic inputs, concentration, and mental quietness). This algorithm is macro-categorizing for how effective gameplay is at allowing smooth experiences, interesting depth, and variety. Other, actually-researched equations are definitive well beyond that, but it applies well to defining the comprehensive nature of entertainment.

E.g., those originally experiencing UO / EQ / MUDs (etc.) were still basing their values on "simply enjoying" them — adventures, learning, and winning. The niches of "mostly economy with very little action" or such are, with proper designs, statistical rarities; and even those existing is fine because them choosing exclusive niches is only that.. having little-to-nothing correlative with the actual, objective values of the gameplay.

was about to grill you for not getting what is possible in the genre, because you're looking at pvp through the lens of a pve structured mmo. if you have levels and leveled zones, then yeah, you're going to run into those problems.

but, you mentioned RvR. this is why I keep saying crafts need to be important. if you own territory and it's not prime time, you can leverage that control to gain materials, like ore or herbs etc to solidify your guild's position, and get ready to fight when your enemy starts heading towards you to take your land. it doesn't have to be a 24 hour fuckfest, you can have downtime to do other things besides beating on each other.
a lot of pve players don't quite realise this, though

LOTRO is the best MMORPG.

Bringing up MOBAs for an example is silly (4-6ish button, often on CD; 2D gameplay). MMO PvP has roles and many buttons (depth / variety), as well as economies and adventures (e.g., raiding cities, sometimes controlling zones and goods..).

'cus all these games fail to capture the systems of Eve Online and go full Rust retardation--the only alternative is RvR!

You're typing too much trying to prove a point that you can't. It's obvious that over time or between generations the consensus of what is fun or enjoyable can change.
Maybe you shouldn't of wasted all that money on a pointless video game college. You sound just like the local retards who've only had 1 or 2 years of psych classes.

Someone sell me on WoW or XIV in their current state.

they're shit, don't bother.

This is why people still love Runescape

i don't understand why you think it can't be an MMO--it's purpose is not only the scale of things but also the multiple communities established (which is generally meaningless in something like WoW but utterly important in something like Eve)

No, you should stay away.

>fuck off with tab target wow clones.
You know TESO and GW2 came out, right?
I'm done with "action combat" MMOs since BDO was complete shit. I'm glad Camelot Unchained is refining the concept of "tab target" combat.

Projection.

Science evidences commonality and consistently predicts success metrics.

MMOs also have the disadvantage of the majority of abilities being incredibly fucking boring, unimpactful, uninteractive in PvP since they're usually designed with PvE in mind and just generally being very set in their rotation.

As much as people meme about Ghostcrawler making the game "easy", I agree with him that having 20 buttons with only 4 actually doing much and the rest being in a set rotation that rarely ever changes is not nearly as interesting as 8 - 10 abilities that have a fuckload of interactions with each other and your enemies.

My gf and I are actually giving in to play wow today, I just miss my toons too much.

TESO was okay, wasn't a fan of GW2 as a whole, but the combat wasn't too bad. unfortunately, the focus of those games wasn't enough to keep me invested, and they failed to deliver on the other points I made.
CU might be cool, but I'll admit I haven't been following it too closely.

okay mr android

>MMOs also have the disadvantage of the majority of abilities being incredibly fucking boring, unimpactful, uninteractive in PvP since they're usually designed with PvE in mind and just generally being very set in their rotation.
That's really vague.

>a fuckload of interactions with each other and your enemies
That's still favoring MMOs though.

>Is it too late to save the MMORPG genre?
Unless you have a time machine and prevent WoW from being made, yes

Bring back CC as a dedicated role.

I still play private servers from time to time. So much fun.

>If you die your ghost goes to the nearest town and has to dance around while you type embarrassing things

You don't lose anything except 2 minutes of your time and your pride

Go back in time and stop tigole from shitposting hard on forums

Ragnarok is good for one thing and one thing only, surprisingly sexy sprites

Literally why do people keep sucking Ragnarok's dick 150 years after it was relevant? I tried some private servers and its pretty boring. Is it all just nostalgia?

> special decoration pieces for the guild's Guild Hall

So like... a sports trophy?

Here's what we do
>You have a cap of 100 levels
>But you can get levels in any class/profession
>Make a whole bunch of different jobs, classes, professions, etc with lots of different skills
>Let people make up their own designs, like instead of having a paladin class have people become lv.60 warriors with 40 levels in cleric or something.
>Introduce multiple races, and races can be leveled up to learn new racial abilities
>40 levels in warrior,40 levels in cleric, and 20 levels in Orc to be a paladin with strong melee resistant passives

unless vr and powerful game platforms get cheaper then mmorpg's will have slow and steady decline

impossible, they're shit

Those posts are providing reasons and factual information though. They're evidencing what they're saying.

how "instanced" GW2 is?

never liked the first one because of this

Sure they are but you're retarded if you don't understand trends change over time and that includes entertainment.

That's often based on having already played something though.

Yet simple games are still popular, and advanced games are still within the possibilities of having industry appeal, because basing these on commonalities is simple.

Look, can we at least get MMOs of different settings? Its always fantasy or Asian fantasy, holy fucking shit. If you're going to do fantasy, at least do something interesting with it!

Avoid that game like the plague. PvP is shit. RvR is ignored as fucked. PvE is just achievement mindless farming. Raid is one of the worst with the developers explicitly state they copy FF14, and despite what everyone says, the dress sim suck balls.

>why do people like think I don't like!!!!!!!!!
wowza
>I tried some private servers
Private servers are just for withdrawal addicts who can't let go but still want a watered down experience.

it's not at all like the first one
the first one may as well have been Diablo 2 where the chatroom was a lobby in a town

Camelot Unchained has a 2019 release date chum

>fuck off with tab target wow clones.
>focus more on pvp and player conflict
Pick one, tab targeting has a higher skill cap than "action" MMOs.
Tab targeting hasn't been beat yet.

Face of Mankind and Planetside were the only MMOs I ever enjoyed.

One's dead and the other one suffered a fate worst than death, a bad sequel.

Yes. MMOs cost a lot of money to create and upkeep, which means they require a large playerbase to keep going. This means they need to appeal to a lot of different people, and inevitably, those people will have different opinions about how things are supposed to go. You can't make everyone happy, but you can't just pick your audience like other genres do.

Whenever you see MMO threads people can't agree on what makes an MMO good or even what's wrong in the genre. A lot of people can't even stay consistent about what they want in a single post.

Some people want more challenge, but that kills the game for people playing to relax. Some people want more active combat, but that usually falls apart in high scale battles. Some people want less grinding, but that means fewer time sinks for people playing for long hours.

MMOs are probably fucked and if you find a game that fits you perfectly it's not likely it'll be long before they either go under or ruin it for you to stay alive.

PvP is the only skillful activity in MMOs, "content" is just glorified DDR matches

Just go play Dragon Age of you want PvE, faggot

Nah

Wait for Pantheon or Camelot Unchained to come out

I agree, action combat needs to fuck off. I want good RPG mechanics again.

Let's run level roulette

>Camelot Umchained
>tab target

Well camelot unchained will still have physical swings and spells that need to hit your enemy but i mean, yeah you can target enemies i guess

BNS is extremely pay to win. I quit a few days ago. It has waifu bait but it is awful. You can buy upgrade materials and gear with real money

I liked how classic Fly For Fun did death. When you die in FlyFF you lose a small percentage of your exp and you leave a small gold box with your name on it that contains your lost exp where you last died and you have like a certain amount of time to get it back. It was like 3 hours but then I think they later reduced the time. It was nothing special but it was fun seeing a feild full of gold boxes seeing all the people who died there, it also really showed how active the game was. People would die in the weirdest places in that game.