Why do indie games developers don't know how to optimize software?

Why do indie games developers don't know how to optimize software?

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github.com/NoelFB/Celeste/blob/master/Source/Player.cs
youtube.com/watch?v=_bM0uEAis14
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>low skill
>low budget
>layers upon layers of middleware because not everyone can just roll their own engines
take your pick

unacceptable

low-mid tier phones have that much ram.

Because every developer thinks the same way, you have to choose between running a game and having a functional system.

At this rate, indie developers will not being able to program a simple tetris without requiring a NASA computer.

Isn't that the minimum ram required for windows 7?

system requirements are bullshit in general anyway. I bet yall anything that most of those requirements specs are not even the actual minimum and more so really just fucking a way to say ,yeah your shitty toaster can run it. Like god damn really is sad to see just how stupid as dumb gay fucks like you all take shit so literally simply cause of how fucking stupid to realize the real meaning behind pointless shit like "min" requirements.

>can't afford 2 gb of ram
Are you underage or somethin?

nobody optimizes anything on pc anymore and that game takes no where near 2gb of ram. your os and other bullshit probably takes around 2gb of ram already so of course you need at least that much to play something on it.

>NASA computer
You're fucking joking, right? Who doesn't have a computer with multiple times 2GB of RAM by now?

Because they use Godot

Everybody, but your echo chamber doesn't allow you to see that. Pro-tip, if you think the average steam user represents the gamer population, you are wrong.

They're the "ideas guy".

Don't know but this retards don't realize that there is literally no pc from the last 10 years that has less than 2 gb ram.

What the fuck are you talking about? What the hell kind of tangent was that?

From time to time you could stop playing games and read a book, it would not make you more stupid at least.

>Everybody
You're a fucking idiot.
Unless you're running on an ancient computer that won't run the vast majority of games released nowadays, you're going to have at least 2GB of RAM.
$150-$250 laptops have anywhere from 2GB of RAM to 8GB, just taking a cursory glance at Amazon. It's pretty similar for prebuilt desktops, with a $200 machine having 8GB.

Not the guy you are arguing with, but you are a special kind of retard. I don't understand what you are trying to say either. The average steam user doesn't represent the average gamer? WTF are you going on about? Of course it does. It represents the average PC gamer since every PC gamer uses steam. And I can assure you that less than 5 percent of the people using steam can't run that game. FFS fucking netbooks have more ram than this.

No really? Thank you Captain Obvious.

people responding to a baitthread lel saged

>every PC gamer uses steam
Got any stats to back that up?

Why do OP not do grammar good

Thog think Op dumb berrypicker

>running Windows 7 with less than 2gb RAM, ever

Because optimization most likely isn't in game development courses.
And new powerful hardware allows you to cut corners and skip optimization process because you can always call someone poor for not having Deep Blue in their basement.

Also, it's not just indies. Ion Maiden everyone and their dogs shill look like Douk mod, but lags like crazy for some fucking reason.

Ok so what do they use? GOG? They have similar systems stats. Only thing left is fucking pirating or playing old physical copies, since games barely release physically anymore and if they do you still have to unlock the game via steam and it is just to have an empty case. And if you are playing games that are 12+ years old, why would you expect any modern game to run on your ancient hardware. Indie games look way better than they used to and have a lot more going on in the background, they have tons of effects sprites, often times advanced shading, just bc the art style reminds you of snes games, doesn't mean the game will be as demanding.

I have Windows XP.

Fuck off then, poorfag.

So most modern games won't even run at all. And you thing you have to complain about how games run.

If a game requires 2 GB RAM on Vista or later, you can probably play it just fine on XP with 1 GB RAM

>No proof, just a bunch of shitty arguments

>Only thing left is fucking pirating
Yes, and?
>since games barely release physically anymore and if they do you still have to unlock the game via steam and it is just to have an empty case
So this is your brain on Steam.

What isn't this the case? I stopped buying pc games once every game I bought just had a fucking steam key in it. I don't know where you live, but except for WOW and giftcards for mobas/mmos and steam you won't find anything in the pc section that isn't just a fucking steam key.

Hey man, I'm not arguing about the validity of optimizing viz minimum reuirements, just that you have no proof about the uptake of Steam, there's no need for all of these non-sequitors about whether someone downloading a game will have 2 GB.

there's always origin and uplay keys hehe

>using an OS thats been outdated for over a decade
This is like using Windows 3.0 when fucking Windows 2000 came out.

Well of course you think you need Steam to buy games if you have Steam, you're hardly going to look for alternatives are you?

What proof do you need if there is no way to play modern games without steam/gog/origins? All show similar specs in their user bases.

Enjoy your bloatware.

What alternatives, you have GOG and piracy for modern games. And the occsional indie dev that releases his shit himself on their website like fucking furry porn games.

Enjoy your inability to run most shit.

I'm not contesting that most people have at least 2GB or RAM, just that you have no proof that most people have Steam.

Call it bloatware, but it makes tons of programs running actually possible. Every OS in existence needed more ressources than it's last iteration, but offered more in exchange.

>man on tricycle tells man in car to "enjoy his gas bill"
hilarious
Enjoy being on slow, outdated garbage I guess.

If you really cared about OS bloat you would be running Linux by now since modern distros probably have better software comparability than windows XP

>GOG and piracy for modern games
Well, there you go then, that wasn't so difficult was it? Not to mention many modern games don't require Steam in the first place, you just think they do because you buy from Steam.

And my point is that it doesn't matter that I don't have proof since it's the only logical conclusion besides piracy or alternatives like GOG.

They don't even know how to program in C. They just pic most bloated language with everything built in and make their "games"

And where your proof that piracy and GOG isn't rampant?

You are a special kind of retard. Look at the post you replied and look at the string until my first answer were I specifically mentionend GOG and piracy.

>And my point is that it doesn't matter that I don't have proof since it's the only logical conclusion and I'm right anyway

Hello to the year 2000

Does this mean ill finally be able to play a current game ihn my toaster?

Also waiting on proof that Origin/Uplay/Bnet don't exist

>"i don't need memory management, everyone's got a fast enough computer and besides it's much easier to write my code in bloatLang!"
Whoever asked for (game)dev to be easier, be careful what you wish for. There are environments that spit out fucking 1MB Hello Worlds already out there.

I don't know if it is or isn't. That's beside the point since they play tons of modern titles and therefor need to have capable pcs aswell. OP or whoever was saying that steam isn't representative, but hardware wise it is.

The two games mentioned above don't need win7 to run. It is impossible that these games require more than fucking Half Life.

>user with poorfag toaster is from third world South America

like pottery

Yeah, I get it, you're implying they don't count by being dismissive.

Because it doesn't matter, you don't need to

When everyone has 32GB of RAM it doesn't matter if the game needs 2GB or 20MB, it's nothing

What the fuck are you even rambling about
At least try to follow up the conversation with a post pertaining to the topic jesus fucking christ

Any current linux distro requires more than win xp at this point.
t. winXP and debian user

github.com/NoelFB/Celeste/blob/master/Source/Player.cs

No I'm saying that they have below average systems even when you look at GOG and pirates. So why should devs cripple their games and waste ressources for people that most likely won't buy their games anyway since they have hardware from 15 years ago.

And are more functional than XP at this point too.
Just stick to Debian since I can almost guarantee has more utility than XP now.

what is this owo

>This bloat class of 5k lines of code, audio included.
Programming a videogame like you were programming a java application.

No it isn't. I'm assuming you are talking about half life 2, if not your argument is invalid from the beginning.

The first has a lot of graphical effects going on and tons of sprites. The second game might need more ram and vram, but that's the reason why you won't see loading times every 2minutes and don't forget old system requirements had 480p in mind at best newer once often times take 1080p as a baseline.

>I can almost guarantee
I can guarantee you utility without resources is meaningless. But yes, every year it becomes impossible to run this OS. Web development taught us to expect the worse from modern developers.

I'm no expert but this looks like a nightmare

That is not an excuse. A "lot of graphical effects going on and tons of sprites" means:
- Either things that any 2D psx can do and emulators hardly require 500mb of ram.
- Things that your graphic card will handle. So barely any system resources should be needed.

I'm guessing because of the "no global vairables" meme. It's pretty much he only way to do it.

OP congratulations you managed to be so absolutely fucking out of your god damn mind, that I can't tell if you're truly retarded, poor, both, or just a flat out artist.

System reqs are often pulled out of their ass. I bet it'd run fine on an old Pentium 4 rig

What is preloading assets into ram? You do realize the reason why things like super meatboy celeste etc. have load times that you miss if you blink even on a hdd is bc they load tons of assets beforehand and keep them loaded in the ram. What you are asking for is crippling the experience for most players so you can run the game on a RPi-tier PC basically.

my craptop has double that.

Someone with actual experience in game dev would at least decouple data and instructions.

Is impossible that game requires 2GB of assets. Look at this video, is a game like 20 years older than Celeste and meatboy, and it probably requires 1/10 of system resources.

What i'm asking is people actually learning how to program or eventually you will only be able to play pacman-clones.
In fact, i'm 99% sure indie games only make 2D platformers because their computers would not be able to handle anything else given their programming skills. Their loss.

If you don't have a steam in the modern day market where steam runs 95% of the entire PC gaming market as a near monopoly and the only reason they don't get spotted as a monopoly is because the jokes that call themselves competition think they can play ball. You're simply a mongoloid denying the reality of this world. Just neck yourself already.

That game is also 1/100th size. You don't seem to understand then and now and technology in general. Or the work around techniques that developers of that era that had to work on 8 and 16 bit actually did.
You just some ignorant son of a bitch aren't you that believes everyone is still living in some mudhut on dial up.

>saw the cover of the game on google
>figured it looked somewhat like the cover
>it actually looks like youtube.com/watch?v=_bM0uEAis14
>looks worse than your webm
>release date was Jan 25, 2018
Oh

What about high quality soundtrack that has to be stored in ram, compared to midis and like I said games like celeste almost load the entire games into ram.

not the guy
what the fuck are you talking about? A computer that doesnt have 2gb of ram these days? Man, i can go down the local store and buy a cheap chinese phone that has 4 gb

>muh graphics

Have some more (not Celeste) pastebin.com/cu9gDj5Z

user lives in venezuela feeding off dead rats and is sad that he can't play the latest indie games

>That game is also 1/100th size.
Yeah
> You don't seem to understand then and now and technology in general.
I'm a pogrammer and i make games.
>Or the work around techniques that developers of that era that had to work on 8 and 16 bit actually did.
If they could do that in the 90s, it shouldn't take as much resources as they need today to make it look as shit as it looks and less challenging.
>You just some ignorant son of a bitch aren't you that believes everyone is still living in some mudhut on dial up.
Hahaha, your tears, how delicious

>Hahaha, your tears, how delicious
user you are the one making a thread to bitch and cry about how games don't run on your rig you found in a trashheap 15 years ago
I don't think you get to use this phrase

thousands of shader assets that load over masking layers adds up, no one in pixel art today understands that there were limitations on the systems that created the unique form of art that these people were producing. Limitation bred creativity. Now everyone is trying to emulate a look which is simply engineering by limitations of design. In order for someone to truly understand this form of art they would have to put themselves under the same technological limitations that the developers 30 years ago had to put up with.
The excuse here though is that instead of doing all of that it boils down to emulate the look with none of the pullback so you end up overthinking and using resources that make no sense. Like fucking shit tons of shaders that didn't exist at that time to bog your fucking game down. Yes it should run better, but it simply won't because you have developers that were never exposed to those working limitations, and therefore do not know or care to know how to work within those limitations. It leads to a lot of overthinking.

Usually they use third party game engine (Unreal, Unity, etc).

So what have you worked on? Would love to see a properly optimized game for obsolet hardware.

>muh lack of an argument or excuse for my fucking awful looking game
It looks worse than an 18 year old game get your shit together you fucking lazy trashcan.

>I'm a pogrammer and i make games.

nobody believes you. btw, programmers don't type like that.

It's also a simple matter of efficiency
Why would a dev go through hundreds of hours of optimization work to reduce the ram load when any PC from the last decade has enough to effordlessly run his game
That's just a waste of resources

>ONLY GAMEPLAY IS IMPORT
>but muh graphics

Not only that, but shortly after he basically says if it was easy back then it should be easy now for programmers, instead of saying it is easy bc he knows from first hand.

This is also true. The boom in technology has allowed us to work without limitations of the past and therefore work sloppy.
We should have a better understanding of the technology we use, but instead we're no better than banging fucking sticks together to make shit work. And that's the major problem of software designers today, they have it too easy in a sense. Without those limitations to breed creativity they don't take the time to understand the tools they are given fully. And therefore work sloppy. It's both an positive and negative that we get to be lazy at the expenditure of mastery.

Celeste looks beautiful.

U wot m8? Celeste is probably the perfect 2d platformer. It's art direction is pretty great.

Resources matter
Time is a resource
Wasting time on optimizing a game to use a few hudred megs less ram to push it froma trivial amount to an even more trivial amount is a waste of respurces that could be invested in more content or whatever

>nobody believes you.
ok
> btw, programmers don't type like that.
I'm sure you know how programmers type
Doesn't make my reasoning false. Do you want me to lecture you on how software works? how ram works? how different levels of cache works? what's the different between cpu and gpu and why any pixelcrap should not require 2 fucking GB of cpu for something a playstation could run without problem? Do i have to explain you how the cpu pipeline works? If you don't want to believe me is ok, but holy shit, how stupid argument you made to just avoid thinking.

The real point here is all the games indie developers cannot make because it simply too much to be handle by their poor optimization skills: Everything is an referenced object, of course handled by the garbage collector; instead of organizing your code to do work depending on the nature of the game (net ai, physics, audio, graphics, etc) you call your entity.update and do everything at the same time for everything;

Indie devs will tell you they are happy just because they cannot shoot higher. For fuck's shake, a videogame 20 years old will look better, be more ambitious with what it can offer, and still barely consume any resources. At this point, expect your games to run as shit as websites nowdays.

*blocks your path*