Ok, Sup Forums, can we discuss Web Development and can you tell me what tier it is in terms of employment? I have a feeling you'll say shit-tier, but other than that, is it atleast a decent field to be in?
I know you'll tell me to study CS, but I fucking suck at Math. Like, really bad. I barely passed Trig, and a BS in CS at my college requires me to take up to I think Calc2 or DiffEq. I cannot and will not do that, so I chose Web Development.
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It's a very lucrative field that doesn't require very much skill. Don't listen to all the unemployed neckbeards here.
I'm skeptical as to how lucrative it can be. Wages listed everywhere I look are from $70,000 - $100,000
How in the fuck is that possible?
I'd be interested in this as well.
I don't see how HTML and CSS is enough for employment, you can learn it in a few weekends.
There's a general for this
this
Web development is way more than HTML and CSS.
tl;dr: There's a lot of work in web development, but salaries aren't as high as in other development work. What's more, odds are it won't last, and the landscape will change drastically within ten years or so.
Basic HTML and CSS won't be enough, you're actually required to know responsive design, the basics of UX and at least jQuery or some other shitty bloated Javashit library to make gay-ass animations. You also gotta be damn patient at these language being inconsistent pieces of shit that, and you'll have to accept your future googling every single little detail because it was all pulled out of a nigger's ass and it's impossible to do anything without consulting Stack Overflow.
On top of this you should be good enough at making single page applications and very likely communicating with a backend that's probably written in a pile of shit language like Java or PHP..
That said, it pays well. It's up to you.
Whoa, he's right, they can make a shitload. Why do they require a CS degree though? Seems like a good portfolio and showcase of their skills would be enough right?
Because a CS degree is a good initial filter to screen out the idiots.
Yeah... someone with a BS or MS in CS is probably not going to be looking to get into Web Dev. I'm sure an A.S., some experience, and portfolio would cut it.
>Why do they require a CS degree though? Seems like a good portfolio and showcase of their skills would be enough right?
I used to work as a back-end web developer. I spent most of my time programming C++ doing heavy file operations and image and video processing.
Most web dev isn't just creating some shitty web site or polling a database for records, that's some outdated view Sup Forums have because they don't know anything about web dev. Usually "web dev" means some highly specialised web application.
Oh, and I have a MSc in CS.
See
Fuck. What am I doing to do?
Isn't it upkeep and security as well?
I'm a web developer, but I work on the full stack (which is, in itself, a bloated term.) For some reason, people equate web development with: HTML, CSS, JavaScript. I work with all three of those, but that's where I spend a minority of my time.
People demonize web development as being the "CRUD dungeon," and depending on what you're doing, that can be the case. Some systems have large, complicated back-ends and the business logic is more complicated than simply reading and writing. To be able to do this work you need to have a solid understanding of more than one programming language, you need to be able to work the full span of the architecture.
You can certainly get a job in this field without a CS degree, but your options will be limited when you are starting out.
As for the math, I used to tutor math, and I would tell people to always try. I sucked at math in high school. When I went to college I put forth one hundred times the effort I did in high school because I knew that would be needed to be competent. I wound up being good enough to be chosen to teach others. So many people discredit their ability to learn math. I'm sure there are some people who simply "can't learn math," but there are far more who could - but have decided they can't. I saw it all the time.
Basically, think about if you really tried, did you honestly give it your all. Did you study hard? (Hours upon hours, every day, no exceptions.)
>Yeah... someone with a BS or MS in CS is probably not going to be looking to get into Web Dev.
So, I may be wrong about this, but I think web development probably accounts for most hiring happening right now. Desktop applications are still needed but they're becoming increasingly moved onto the web as the browsers become more capable. Email is the obvious example but I could come up with dozens more. You have to look at the big picture, going back twenty years to the present.
Not saying that's a good thing; it is what it is.
Suck it up and study for it. I failed university calculus twice and barely passed the third time, but I got really good grades in "CS math" as I call it (discrete mathematics, algorithms, formal logic etc). I also got really shitty grades in math in high school.
If a retard like me can do it, so can you.
>Desktop applications are still needed but they're becoming increasingly moved onto the web as the browsers become more capable
I'm and I can confirm this. The web application the company made used to be a desktop application that did processing on the clients, but gradually evolved into a web application that did distributed back-end processing (aka "cloud service"), because that's what clients and customers wanted.
I can't even fucking conceptualize it, also I'm old. I'm 27 and just want to get into a fucking career. I'm bored as shit at my job.
Obviously you guys don't know the future landscape of the Internet or anything but what are these web devs to do when it stops growing? Will the web translate well into anything? Maybe security?
What do you currently do?
I would say spend money on getting certs, whether for programming stuff or for general IT, and then go work for some consultancy firm that specialises in Microsoft or Java or Oracle DBs or whatever.
>There's a lot of work in web development, but salaries aren't as high as in other development work.
I'm and I currently work as an embedded developer. I make considerably LESS money than I did as a web developer, and all my former class mates that are currently working as web devs are making shitloads of money.
Agree with this advice. Hate recommending plebbit but check out /r/ITcareerquestions, plenty of people posting there who are late twenties or even older, and are able to break into this field all the same.
How can a find a job?
>less money as an embedded developer
literally how?
I always thought that embedded stuff was the holy grail of programming jobs
Can't you read? It says you need to have knowledge of a cs degree, i.e. To know what a degree is.
>literally how?
Fewer jobs, high competition over the same jobs. Unlike web dev, where companies can only attract skilled developers through high salaries and benefits, companies that do embedded exploit the relative oversupply of developers compared to the number of jobs and drive salaries way down to save money.
>I always thought that embedded stuff was the holy grail of programming jobs
It really isn't, it's just a Sup Forums meme.
Yeah, I mean you have endless client-specific applications that have moved from the desktop to the web, that most people don't even know about because they're made for a specific business or industry.
But even for the general public, the regular consumers, just off the top of my head:
>Video/audio players
>Instant messaging, chat, email
>Office suites
>Accounting
>Encyclopedia
>Planners
>"Meta" programs like CM, issue tracking, viewing logs, etc.
All of those were entirely desktop applications at one point that have either been replaced by their web counterpart or they are currently co-existing with their web counterpart. And that change kind of creeped in gradually over the last 20 years, because the browsers became more powerful and bandwidth stopped being an issue. For most of the 90s your browser couldn't do much beyond text and pictures.
The people saying "web development is going away" are basically expecting a 20-year trend to not only stop but reverse course for some reason. Web development isn't going away, but the tools will keep changing (as they always have.) That's one of the downsides to web dev, you gotta work hard to stay on top of things because the tools and libraries change rapidly. It's very fluid.
If you have time you really can do it yourself and not work that hard. Good social skills for hitting local business and dealing with people who don't know a lot about tech. It's huge levels and gaps in it. I've seen job applications asking insane requirements for employees. At the same time I know people who make wordpress sites on a hostgator server and make decent money. It depends on what you choose to do.
>Web development isn't going away, but the tools will keep changing (as they always have.) That's one of the downsides to web dev, you gotta work hard to stay on top of things because the tools and libraries change rapidly. It's very fluid.
That's very true, and I think also this is why new companies are always jumping on the newest library or framework or whatever comes along, because in web dev you risk falling behind if you're more than 6 months behind in adopting the technology that suddenly becomes predominant.
I mean, everyone laughed at node.js when it first came out but now it is widely used and is replacing a lot of "traditional" back-end technologies.
>Cybercoders
Don't even bother with applying with agencies. Their job postings are mostly fake.
I really need to look into node.js, I'm one of those people who thought "this is insane" when I heard about it, but then you see some of the benchmarks and you're left confused.
Is embedded that bad? I actually figured it would be the opposite, that embedded programmers would have more bargaining power instead of less. The bootcamps and so forth all seem to target entry-level web dev, you don't see them teaching C/C++ and asm.
Also, while my university had a really strong C curriculum, that seems to be falling to the wayside. The CS program at my school was very old school, they weren't going to let people graduate who could not program in C. The undisputed weed-out class was systems programming in C.
>Is embedded that bad?
I haven't even gotten started on the quality of the actual programming.
>I actually figured it would be the opposite, that embedded programmers would have more bargaining power instead of less.
There are less embedded developers than other types of developers, but there are also far fewer embedded jobs. There is an oversupply of devs, therefore companies that do embedded can pick and choose and drive salaries down.
>The bootcamps and so forth all seem to target entry-level web dev, you don't see them teaching C/C++ and asm.
That's true, but it's because that web devs are highly in demand. If the field would suddenly become saturated and people stopped hiring, then these bootcamp "graduates" would see that paying a gorillean dollars for a bootcamp didn't get them a job anyway and the market for them would fail.
>Also, while my university had a really strong C curriculum, that seems to be falling to the wayside. The CS program at my school was very old school, they weren't going to let people graduate who could not program in C. The undisputed weed-out class was systems programming in C
It's the same from the university where I'm from, although they've laxed some of the requirements in some new programmes (like design and HCI). But yeah, basically all the classes that require any form of programming is in C, both at the department of CS and also at the department of physics (we don't have a pure engineering department, so EE and CE are a part of physics at my uni).
It baffles me none of you have mentioned design as a relevant aspect. Pure front-end by itself doesn't require much skills, but that's how you earn shit and make shit like pic related. The truth is you won't be nearly as relevant as a front-end unless you have additional knowledge of graphic design and at least have a personal style.
Web dev != web design
Front-end programming != design
There's a reason why my company and most other companies have all three of designers, UX programmers and front-end programmers.
>semantics
UX is a ghost title unskilled postgraduates like to throw around for having made app and website mockups on Behance. A good graphic designer should have the knowledge of its different subfields, though not required to be able to build everything themselves. So already your company could be saving three salaries.
As I said, it's not mandatory to design as a programmer or vice versa. My point is that it makes you absolutely irrelevant to not have basic knowledge of both disciplines. Our studio has four designers, two of them with focus on print, and two on digital. Not only do we produce everything in-house, but instead of giving a less competent employee a bigger responsibility, everyone is equally competent and equally involved through the entire process.
In my company, front-end devs are tasked in presenting statistics and numbers in the best possible way to the user (since we make a container logistics application), most of them have some experience with data science and statistics (we do some data aggregation client side, but the hardcore number crunching is done back-end).
The designers decide what color this button should have, or how many pixels to the left the menu should be, most of them have a degree in graphic design.
Those are very different tasks.
We make identities and web applications. Different need for different uses I guess.
Can any web devs here take a look at my curriculum and let me know if this will be suitable to get me gainful employment as a dev
ISA 323 Database Management using Microsoft Access
CISA 324 Database Management using SQL
CISC 310 Introduction to Computer Information Science
CISC 323 Linux Operating System
CISC 324 Intermediate Linux Operating System
CISP 301 Algorithm Design and Implementation
CISP 350 Database Programming
CISP 360 Introduction to Structured Programming
CISP 401 Object Oriented Programming with Java
CISW 304 Cascading Style Sheets
CISW 320 Introduction to Web Site Development
CISW 323 Survey of Internet Technologies
CISW 370 Designing Accessible Web Sites
CISW 400 Client-side Web Scripting
CISW 410 Middleware Web Scripting
CISW 470 Web Projects
GCOM 330 Digital Imaging I
GCOM 360 Introduction to Web and Interactive Technologies
This is the A.S. curriculum btw
How easy is it to learn how to build a website just by using dreamweaver?
I got it few days ago and I'm thinking of challenging myself into making a website over the course of the next three days. Is it possible to learn how to make an interactive 7 page website with dreamweaver over 3 days?
Why
I'm starting my first year in a programming course in two weeks and want to get a head start in the webdev module. Figure if I can make an interactive website I can sail through the rest of the course.
You won't be using dreamweaver in a programming course. Do you have any basic HTML, css, js knowledge yet?
Since this seems the place to ask; I posted this in /wdg/ and only got one response I'm curious if I can get more opinions please:
>I got a junior position interview coming up in a week. Looks like the position uses a lot of WordPress, which I think is common I don't really care because I just need experience.
>For a junior/entry level position with WordPress what kind of things would I need to know? I know the interface already and I can make a site on there. I never really fucked with the php for it too much though, how deep does php go for WordPress?
>What kinds of things should I be studying for? Obviously you don't know what the job wants but for an entry level position in general what kinds of things should I know?
Thanks guy
Yeah I got html down and have some basic knowledge of javascript. I've never tried css before but I doubt it's that hard.
You'll want to get a good grip on JS and understand at least the basics of CSS, look around for free tutorials online. Eloquent JavaScript is a good resource. Then look into a frontend framework, the predominant example being React.
For wordpress itself, read about the template hierarchy and learn how to loop through posts using WP query. Get ACF Pro. You should also know how to do basic database management for deployment.
Cool thanks man. This is the kind of response I was wanting.
seriously you dont need to waste time on half of those subjects as a class. i'd focus on ds&a topics. most of those topics can be covered by pirating a book on the subject and spending 2 weekends on it.
