Can people explain to me what is especially undemocratic about the EU?
With the whole Brexit debate you'll see people complaining about how the EU is undemocratic, but I don't see how.
In your own country you probably vote for parliament and the people that get elected decide who among them fills a number of positions.
As an EU citizen, you can vote for the European parliament. again the people who get elected decide who fills what position.
How is one democratic, but the other not?
Basically that an EU decision and regulation can conflict with a national people's decision, restricting their ability to make decisions. It's the same way that the federal government of a country restricts the provincial government, making it less "democratic".
How is that undemocratic though?
Who calls American Congress undemocratic?
That's stupid. Your vote mattering less doesn't make something less democratic.
I think the idea is that the vote counts less for nothing in return. There's pretty much no difference between American states but someone from Hungary and someone from UK have very little in common. It's more like their people aren't being represented as much, so it's less democratic. Maybe it's not exactly the right word, but it's a popular buzzword that people usually think of as positive.
>As an EU citizen, you can vote for the European parliament.
Except the European Parliament has no control over EU law. All of it is written and passed by unelected officials and it amounts to 60% of Britain's total laws.
tl;dr - watch Brexit the Movie.
So it's just a meme, basically?
It quite clearly does.
>Except the European Parliament has no control over EU law.
Except they do. Is the rest of the movie also misinformation?
>All of it is written and passed by unelected officials
so like in the usa
>it amounts to 60% of Britain's total laws
yes which is why belonging (i.e. having a minimal effect on the way those laws are made) is clearly better than leaving (i.e. having no say whatsoever and still having to abide with them to access the common market)
I wouldn't want people from Africa deciding my country's laws. I don't know what you consider a meme but people more similar to me should be deciding the laws of where I live.
By European Parliament I mean MEPs, who are the only people you're able to elect. MEPs have no say in anything whatsoever.
I would prefer it if all decisions were made by me and other single men between 20 and 30 too. That doesn't make women and older people having a vote less democratic.
I get the argument but it's a terrible way of wording it
I still live, work with, and are affected by the laws the same as women and old people. People from places thousands of kilometers away don't.
European Council (heads of national governments) sets the agenda
European commission (every national government selects one commissioner) drafts legislation
European Parliament (directly elected by the EU citizens) passes legislation
The EU will export more to Britain than vice versa. Also the EFTA should become a counterweight to the EU again.
Basically it was made this way because national governments wanted more power
EU would be more democratic with directly elected president and common government that would rely on confidence from European Parliament, but then it would be federation.
They do live with, work within and are affected by those laws. They are affected differently, but so are the old people
They have a vote in whether legislature passes or not
even if that happens, the uk still has to follow eu rules. it's basically the same thing with you. except you're geographically positioned so that goods HAVE to cross you. this doesn't happen with the uk. they have a lot to lose and very little to gain.
but i understand them, though. the world shouldn't be run on money.
>Who calls American Congress undemocratic?
Technically we are a republic and the're the reason why. We only directly vote on valor measures. The're a bunch of cunts who are just in it mainly for themselves but so far no one has come up with a better idea.
Most democratic at the bottom, less democratic the more you go up.
If someone's vote is worth less or more than mine, that's undemocratic, or if I'm unable to vote, undemocratic.
>Technically we are a republic
That's a fucking meme.
Congressmen are democratically elected and so are MEPs full stop.
>so like in the usa
Absolutely not. I don't much about how things work in the US, but I know that laws are written by one part of government and passed a different part. Secondly, if I'm not mistaken, the politicians are tied to certain states/counties/cities and divided Democratic/Republican in proportion to votes in the local elections of each of those regions.
>yes which is why belonging (i.e. having a minimal effect on the way those laws are made) is clearly better than leaving (i.e. having no say whatsoever and still having to abide with them to access the common market)
>implying 60% of EU laws will still apply to Britain
If nothing else, British fisherman will be able to fish more than 5 miles out to sea instead of having to reserve those waters for Dutch and Portuguese companies to fish as is the case now. If EU law is as restrictive outside as inside then why aren't Switzerland, Norway, and Iceland begging to join?
Europe is not a single country, its laws shouldn't be decided as if it were one. If the EU only made laws regarding trade, then it wouldn't be so bad.
EU supports stronger regional governace
EFTA is is just EU Lite
You're missing the point, I don't live with people thousands of kilometers away. I shouldn't have to live under the same laws as them, who want to live in a different way than me.
Yeah, how democratic it is for poles or greeks to have a say in how you run YOUR country.
And then when your country democratically decides to not follow EU law the other 27 will very democratically tell you to eat dick and fuck off.
see
No they don't, Jean-Claude. Nigel Farage is an MEP you know.
I get that, but I get the impression a lot of people have no clue to what these laws actually are
You don't live with people dozens of kilometers away and the people on your block live in a different way.
Free trade, no equalisation transfers, no freedom of movement of workers (between countries with different wages, different social security, broken job markets in one country, unbroken in the other)
>Nigel Farage is an MEP you know
So?
He's in irrelevant meme faction, so he has no real power. Just like Ukip in Westminster with one seat.
Agriculture, not even fishing, in total is like 0.5% of our economy.
We are overwhelmingly an advanced, service based economy (nearly 80% of GDP is services) and as such we should have as open an economy as possible
>Switzerland, Norway, and Iceland
EFTA still follow most EU regulations, still make monetary contribution, and still allow free movement (even worse, they’re in Schengen) but have no seat at the table.
How is that any better than what we currently have? A big seat at the table of the largest single market with easy access to it yet special snowflake status (opt out of euro, Schengen, further political integration etc.).
>What does the Parliament do?
>The Parliament has 3 main roles:
>Legislative
>Passing EU laws, together with the Council of the EU, based on European Commission proposals
europa.eu
EFTA isn't EEA or the two so called bilateral treaties between the EU and Switzerland.
national parties blame the EU for the major fuck ups their own officials manage to achieve in the Council/Commission
it's funny how people believe the "EU bureacrats from outer space" meme
OK, I stand corrected, they're just unable to initiate, propose, or repeal legislation, which every other parliament in the world is able to do: youtube.com
The difference between London and Manchester is much smaller than the difference between London and Warsaw.
What??
I talk to the people who live on my block, go to the same restaurants, use the same banks, go to the same sports events, go to the same church, and the same schools. We are treated by the same police, the same province, and speak the same language.
dude it's the fucking democratically appointed government/ministers who make european legislation
And a reason why it's unable to do so is because national governments of the EU want to retain their power
This way Malta (population 450,000) can veto almost anything in the European Council
pls post legible pic, lelgium.
norway and iceland literally because of their fish industry. their basically eu colonies (have to abide by all the laws but can't say anything about them). but norway and iceland LIVE for fish. they're like the top 2 fish exporters in the world or something. and i should know this because portugal is the world's 3rd biggest fish importer.
but the uk has a small fish industry and quite honestly very little to gain with having its seas back to it.
switzerland is a different case. most trading routes between italy/germany/france or ones that go between more than two countries have to pass via switzerland in most cases (whereas these routes don't have to pass through the uk at all to get to ireland for instance). also switzerland has the unique banking system that the uk lacks. it would be great if the uk had a big special thing that it would gain with independence but it doesn't
>except you're geographically positioned so that goods HAVE to cross you
Fucking really? It's not possible to bypass the tiny mountainous blob in pic related?
the EU is too complicated and boring, so it's easy to scapegoat
If it was the other way and oh so democratic you Brexiters would whine how we're effectively a federation and your national parliament is pointless when the EU one is the only one that matters.
By giving the legislative initiative to the Council and the Commission you're effectively ensuring that the interests of your national parliament are respected as well, not just the EU's.
>but I get the impression a lot of people have no clue to what these laws actually are
That applies to domestic politics, too.
I shouldn't have to understand something fully to form an opinion on it, that's impractical. The EU is designed from the ground up to be as complex and hard to understand as possible. At the end of the day, if I don't like the government I can vote against it every five years. If it messes up, it gets voted out.
I simply cannot do that with the EU.
not if they want to be contrarian and try to force the swiss into the EU's sinking ship.
You wouldn't understand. You were ruled by Moscow for centuries and when that collapsed you looked west for someone to dominate you.
We haven't had that.
it is, of course. but the alps are though and swiss gasoline is cheap. and sometimes you have to go germany->italy->france->austria and you have no way yo avoid it.
>go to the same restaurants, use the same banks, go to the same sports events, go to the same church, and the same schools
I bet you don't. The differences may be smaller but I find it hard to believe your neighbors all like the same sports you do and have their checking accounts in the same bank
Pretty much these. Nobody has any understanding of how the EU functions at all. Not even the very basics. The only thing people know is that "some eurocommunist cultists pass laws we all have to obey". The end result is that everyone uses it as a convenient scapegoat because people firmly believe it's some omnipotent organization completely separated from national politics.
At least some apply
Everyone here loves hockey, everyone here is Christian.
it's fucking law, not rocket science, you simply need to open a simple book that explains how the EU works and that's it
one could say the same thing for national law
>I simply cannot do that with the EU.
you're literally doing it you dumb bong
Have you heard about that biggest tunnel recently opened in Switzerland? Gotthard pass has always been very important choke point
Hitler didn't invade Switzerland because they had banks and the Swiss could blow up crucial tunnels and bridges, which would've been very unpleasant for Germany
Try to meme less and address the point next time.
When you have to read a scientific paper or something like this to find out why the EU is democratic then something could be wrong.
i could replace "eu" for "national" or "uk" or "government" or whatever and you'd sound completely retarded
>I simply cannot do that with the EU.
You simply fucking do it all the time. By electing your own national parliament and then the MEPs. Fucking hell.
>you simply need to open a simple book that explains how the EU works and that's it
No, it isn't it. The whole thing is incredibly complicated and they spend most of their time arguing over who does what. It's not transparent in the slightest.
>you're literally doing it you dumb bong
I'm voting in a referendum held by my own government, the EU didn't give me that.
World is a complicated place. Sorry for that.
I guess it's all just a conspiracy.
This, current eu is awful and needs to be abolished.
FUCK EU
On the other hand a few A4 sheets are enough to explain why the USA is a democracy and how checks and balances work.
It's really not that complex
Of course I live in a Kafkaesque nightmare of a country with 6 levels of government, not counting the EU
and yet most americans in this website (and on the internet in general and irl too) will say the USA isn't a democracy at all but just a republic (whatever that means).
things aren't simple, move on
They genuinely don't get it.
Why do you think being unable to get through the absolute mess that comprises the structure and organisation of the European Union makes people "retarded", considering the people who work for the thing have about as much clue as I do?
They don't get to do anything important in relation to the EU. They might have input, but that input doesn't come back and change anything for me.
People who are paid large sums of money to form judgment and provide expertise on the European Union are unable to come to any sort of consensus. What chance does anyone else have? It's purposefully complex.
this
the entire US constitution is a few sheets of A4 paper
>that flag
>this post
>national governments are appointed democratically
>heads of said governments form the European Council
>ministers form the Council of the EU
>govs appoint some shitters in the Commission
gee so hard
your own government also gave you the EU
You just have to tell that you want. That's all what you need to leave the EU.
Just like the Warsaw Pact, amirite? xD
"Democratic" are all the things that you like and "undemocratic" are all the things that you don't like. If you especially dislike something, it's "facist". There you go, all clear now.
I am fairly sure most Americans would consider the United States a democracy.
it's not being unable to get there that makes you retarded, it's giving up on it because you don't understand it
you're literally admitting to being lazy and stupid.
that said, and because i just want to make this clear, i respect brexit supporters tremendously if not just for autonomy's sake
*tell them that you want leave
Why dont we just SHIT on our history, throw our flags in the toilet and kiss some kikes ass in Belgium?
What are we waiting for? Thats what EU is. It's USA 2.0, and it's SHIT.
you should have a go on it, then
then again most americans are retards
>kikes
Eurosceptic "arguments" in a nutshell
>it's not being unable to get there that makes you retarded, it's giving up on it because you don't understand it
The people who work as part of it don't understand it. Neither do you. No one does.
>you're literally admitting to being lazy and stupid.
I'm neither. I just don't understand why something that apparently makes so much sense and only survives through national governments has tens of thousands of pages of legislation, directive and regulation.
Why does it need that?
>dude it's the fucking democratically appointed government/ministers who make european legislation
If the video I posted is not mistaken, it's the European Commission that proposes and writes legislation, and their 28 members are decided by the European Council which is made up by the heads of state of each of the member states? If, so how are they "democratically appointed"? In New Zealand, each member of the NZ parliament (which can propose/initiate/repeal/pass legislation unlike EP) is either directly elected in a regional by-election or is a List MP appointed based on the number of seats won by his party. Would the way the European Commission members are elected not be akin to our Prime Minister appointing a single MP for the whole of the NZ parliament by himself?
The EU shills are going all out tonight, both here and oon Sup Forums.
Wew.
Most of Americans consider Finland part of Scandinavia. Does not make them any more right though.
youtube.com
Who is he? Hes never even mentioned in the fucking news you retard.
>but the uk has a small fish industry
Yes, because of EU law.
because first it has to be clear and leave no space for confusion, second each country has a lot to bring in and very little it wants to concede, and third and finally because it's quite literally the first time this has happened in history
therefore you have to have a million pages with special amendments for this and that and whatnot. it's a bureaucratic mess. like a conglomerate of two banks or something baka
the uk never had a strong fishing industry not did they ever spend much on it. if they wanted it so badly, they could've just not joined in the first place like iceland and norway did.
that's like blaming your psycho girlfriend for your own shitty choice of moving in with her.
I'm all for directly elected president of the EU (van Rompuy wouldn't stand a chance for it), but I'm also European federalist
People also voted for immediate delegates in the USSR, but those delegates voted for other superior delegates and so on, making the whole election system something completely arbitrary and the power unreachable for the common citizen.
The EU is basically a bureaucratic superstructure as the USSR was, but without the welfare.
>The people who work as part of it don't understand it. Neither do you. No one does.
no, the commission is basically the watchdog of the EU, they make sure the laws made by the Council are applied in each state, that's why people hate them
their members are appointed by the democratically elected governments, so it is a democratic practice, the same way government officials are appointed. It's representative democracy 101
I wonder if they're paid as much as Hillshills:
businessinsider.com
No, you could only vote for the list of the Communist Party
You couldn't start your own party, certainly not a party whose sole purpose was abolishment of the USSR
>the same way government officials are appointed.
See:
>In New Zealand, each member of the NZ parliament (which can propose/initiate/repeal/pass legislation unlike EP) is either directly elected in a regional by-election or is a List MP appointed based on the number of seats won by his party
> Would the way the European Commission members are elected not be akin to our Prime Minister appointing a single MP for the whole of the NZ parliament by himself?
I'm paid fuck all. My autism just forces me to reply to clueless retards.
It is completely Irrelevant who you vote for, and if it is a single or multi-party system. The structure will remain unaltered.
What we have in the EU is the ilusion of choice when voting, instead of the certainty of a single-party system
>No, you could only vote for the list of the Communist Party
>You couldn't start your own party
Where did he say otherwise? Don't "immediate delegates" = "list of Communist the Party"?
communist detected
>Yuropoors will defend the elegant simplicity of pic related
Are your ministers also directly elected? Because that's what european commissioners basically are.
Yeah and EU needs to change or its fucking finished.
It's not my job, it's their job. Currently it's awful and fucking shit.
I suppose the difference is that I don't pay taxes to prop up bank mergers.