Wayland vs X11

Pros and cons

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Wayland will replace X in a couple of years, good thing Gnome cucks are beta testing it right now.

Install Xenocara.

Due to its design, Wayland will be a huge clusterfuck of incompatible shit for the next 10 years or so, and things hopefully settle down a bit and I can start using it full-time.

Wayland pros:

- Much more comprehensible code than X11
- Generally better and cleaner design
- Developed by people who are not clueless about what they're doing.
- Faster that X11
- Free and Open Source

Wayland cons:

- Not network transparent
- Not backwards compatible with X11
- Just a few years away, and always will be


X11 Pros:

- Has been tweaked over decades to work with everything
- Installed everywhere already, working right now
- Network transparent
- Free and Open Source
- Will still be around for at least another decade no matter what anyone says

X11 Cons:

- Nobody on earth fully understands the core code
- Some bugs and design problems basically cannot be fixed
- Slow and laggy as fuck

Shame about the networking support but at least the possibility of decent desktop environments exists now.
X-based "desktops" have always been horrible hacks where nothing is actually in charge of input and critical shit like lockscreens + full screen applications could barely work at all, or failed in bizarre ways if both the DE and the application didn't happen to interpret some vague "how to behave nice in X" protocol just right.

A Wayland protocol implementation will be much simpler and faster than X11.
Even the X11 devs agree that X11 is such a clusterfuck and it has to be replaced.

X11 - Worked 10 years ago, works now, will work in 10 years time
Wayland - didn't work 10 years ago, only just works now,will work as good as X11 in 10 years time

In other words, 20 years of work to have something just as good as now, for all the end-user knows or cares.

>Just a few years away, and always will be
Ubuntu and Fedora defaults to Mutter's Wayland implementation as of now.
My phone which I've had since 2014 also runs a Wayland implementation.

Why not just spend 10 years fixing X rather than 20 years replacing it with something that, to the end-user, doesn't mean anything (besides several years of bugs and problems they never used to have to deal with, like what happened when GNOME 3 and KDE 4 came out)?

>b-b-but the code isn't easy and pretty!

I don't give a shit. Do you care about how complex your car might be to work on before you take it to a mechanic? No. You drop it of and expect them to do their job.

>Why not just spend 10 years fixing X rather than 20 years replacing it with something that, to the end-user, doesn't mean anything (besides several years of bugs and problems they never used to have to deal with, like what happened when GNOME 3 and KDE 4 came out)?
Because the X11 devs say they've cleaned it as much as they can, nobody knows how it works anymore so they'd rather replace it.

It's not just about pretty code, it's also about reducing rendering time and improving security.
Wayland won't in itself make anything faster or improve security, but it allows developers to implement a compositor which can do both.

>Wayland won't in itself make anything faster or improve security

"So why did I pay you for 20 years to develop it" is what someone who's in charge of finance should ask them.

>Because the X11 devs say they've cleaned it as much as they can
Fine. Then the gravy-train is over. Time to get a job that creates value or produces something of value.

I'm fucking sick of these nu-devs breaking shit that used to work because it makes their lives easier. I wonder if any of them stopped drinking coffee because picking the beans is hard.

>I'm fucking sick of these nu-devs breaking shit that used to work because it makes their lives easier.

are you stupid?

They tried, several times.

The choice is between 30 years fixing X at the cost of the mental health of any developer involved and 10 years to build Wayland.

The more you fix something the more of a fucked up opaque abomination ity becomes.

Like Burger legal system has never been replaced entirely it became so overcomplicated over time nobody even knows how it works anymore.

Jolla sighted

I'm using it right now, it works flawlessly, no tearing, no performance issues and some games I've tried work too.

my window manager still on X11
so fuck wytland

>forces you to use a compositor
That's the biggest flaw. Not to mention, OBS doesn't work on Wayland right now, so it's pretty much useless to me.

That's because the WM in a Wayland sense just is the compositor.

modern X isn't network transparent
the extensions everyone uses nowadays don't work over a network

Just about anything is better than x11. Thank fucking god.

>Why not just spend 10 years fixing X
they tried that already, ever heard of X.org?
X cannot be saved, as it is it's at the point that people use basically nothing /but/ workarounds, fixing anything else means changing the core, changing the core means no more X11 compatibility, without that, you can't call it X anymore, you could say it's "X12", but a fixed X11 won't resemble X, so there's no point in doing so

As someone who often uses lightweight wms like i3, bspwm, frankenwm, and dwm on X11, how's the performance on something like Sway? Is it comparable, or is it a big pile of bloat?

wayland is going to lead to better leaner display servers

but ultimately the fragile peace that xorg created by doing everything it possibly could is going to be shattered and the freedesktop is going to be segmented into irredeemable shit

Wayland is shit
Wayland is full of bugs
Wayland is botnet
phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Systemd-230-FBDEV-Woe

Sway should be more lightweight than X11 + i3.

Wayland is a protocol, anyone can implement a Wayland compositor.
GNOME's Mutter doesn't use Weston for instance and most shit doesn't use FBDEV anyway, we have already switched to DRM/KMS for most things.

I'll try it when/if Nvidia support it.

are you linking an article about systemd and FBDEV to convince us that Wayland sucks?

wanna know how I know you're a useless Sup Forums memer that likes to repeat shit he overheard?

nvidia will always perform the bare minimum to support CUDA workloads on Linux

they will never give a shit about "regular users". they don't even give a shit about windows babbies.

stop using cancerware.

Gonna probably install it then. thanks, random person!
How would it compare to something like DWM + X11?

They do, it's just that devs have to add support for their special snowflake API and afaik gnome is the only DE/WM that bothered to support it.

>It's only worth doing if there's immediate payoff!

it might be an oversimplification but sway is basically i3 for Wayland

how does i3 compare to DWM?

It's not harmful and sucks less
dwm.suckless.org/

Does nvidia drivers support wayland yet?

From what I've read from GNOME then Yes.
But they aren't ready for everyday use yet

I'm telling you to ask yourself the question so you can come to a conclusion on your own

I don't care for software written by egocentric Macbook hipsters personally

>X11
>GUI programs written 20 or more years ago on another UNIX kernel can run on X today

>Wayland
>Lol stop using outdated software

Wayland, gnome and redhat are shit
Fuck them

Not until nvidia comes up with a new standard that is accepted by everyone because eglstreams is only supported by mutter but it doesn't work with xwayland so you won't get any hw accel in x11 software.

I don't get it
explan

im not much into it but for me this wayland thing is a big meme that has no reason to exist, they don't bring anything new or better and at the same take existing features out, also you cant run multiple WM at the same time with X11 KDE and i3wm could coexist without problems but witth the clients that have been rewritten to wayland you have to chose between one of them sway or KDE. This is the eternal regression promoted by gnome faggots always striping down features just because they are brainlets that cant read code from ancient white beards.

>Do you care about how complex your car might be to work on before you take it to a mechanic? No. You drop it of and expect them to do their job.
That is some of the dumbest fucking shit I've ever heard. You're comparing X to an UPGRADE (Wayland). You can't just drop off your car at a mechanic and expect them to "fix" your broke ass pinto into a Lamborghini, it's just not fucking possible. Not to mention that it is ALSO a mechanic's job to tell you when your car's a fubar'd piece of shit that you should be replacing wholesale. You not wanting to give a shit about the details doesn't just magically make a unicorn pop out of your mechanic's ass. If you want to continue using an old busted ass car and force your mechanics to continue holding it together with bubblegum and duct tape, that's your prerogative. But don't think that entitles you to any real improvements over what you have now.

this

All those fucking hipsters that dish X and it's shity outdated design forget the imoressive backwards compatibility of X. That's not an easy feat and should be applauded.

I wouldn't want redhat gnome hipster dev, that can't make gtk 3.20 source compatible with gtk 3.18, not to mention binary compatibility. Especially now that the scums of redhat want to shit out gtk4 which is going to be an eternal alpha. Furthermore they want to have the display server tightly coupled with gnome and have all the applications that want to capture the screen etc talk through their crap always moving "apis" that after 2 years at most will be rewritten from scratch.

In other words X is a complex display server with outdated design but it works, it's stable and backwards compatible unlike the shit those hipster redhat "devs" shit out

There are no cons on Wayland.
You can still run X11 on top of Wayland.

>I want my GPU to waste time compositing windows
It only matters when you drag windows one above another, and it means bigger latency and some resources are just wasted compositing.
I'd rather have a little bit of drawing errors than crappy compositor that shoves vsync down my throat and makes games run slower.

My problem with wayland is that you can't forward it over ssh and that I don't trust red hat to actually maintain a stable and documented api because they want everyone to use gnome.

What's all this I hear about wayland will result in fragmentation and you can't have screenshots and customing bindings for games?

wayland = failed meme
also lincuck only, which is bad.

>wasting resources playing games

xorg should have been rewritten with full backwards compatibility and support for loading compositor shared files into the server process

It's true
The control freaks of gnome want to shove their pink claws all over the stack (they already control init with systemd) and to make everyone have to use gnome to do anything. Until they deprecate the api because features are bad and muh security

Xorg is trash that has years of ducktape and is still an insecure piece of shit. It needed to be rewritten

Sure. But not from gnome redhat fags. Keep the away from the display server. They have done enough damage already with gnome and gtk when gtk is so shit that java based android is faster and less bloated than gtk and people prefer to deal with bloated webkit instead of fucking gtk to build desktop applications

This

>and afaik gnome is the only DE/WM that bothered to support it
latest Ubuntu with latest Gnome still does not support wayland with nvidia

May be they dropped that patch, then

There already are a dozen of compositors so far and sway is the i3 of wayland, you don't have to use GNOME or KDE.

Wayland is trash because it will be broken every 2 years by GNOME so tons of software will need to be rewritten to work correctly again.

This.
There will certainly be ways for minimal Tiling WMs to exist. Wayland is just a protocol.

What about screen recording, screen sharing, remoting? Wayland is just a fucking protocol and we will end up having separate incompatible apis for everything while x was bringing some sanity before and compatibility.

Fuck Wayland and the hot mess it creates

Wayland has built in backwards compatability with Xorg applications

It could work, but then everyone would have to agree to use some API or common libraries. But with gnometards around, it can't happen

>want everyone to use gnome.

And SystemD. I bet SystemD is even a requirement for Wayland.

That's one angry brainlet...

It isn't.

Not yet, but sway already has problems with non-systemd. There's a workaround and it's probably sway's fault, but still.

Smart people stop using things that work and want things that don't and will be fucked with every few years. SystemD is updated so quickly and is such a mess that by the time any auditing is done it's already out of date (lol don't worry about backdoors though, it's open source), not to mention the bullshit that is GTK 3/3.5/4/4.5/5/etc. and rolling betas.

Every single problem with X11 being "bloated" and "a mess" was created by the same kind of people no making Wayland.

Not technically but it is practically. Both KDE and Gnome use systemd-logind to start wayland sessions which forces you to use systemd. Luckily the based Gentoo devs have a logind fork called elogind.

Wayland multihead support is fucked. The code it is based on is already considered legacy and no one wants to touch it.
I setup Sway on a completely new build and I was pretty disgusted with how much it is still lacking and pulled my previous Xorg setup. Not ready for big time until 2025 at least.

What really pisses me off about this push for wayland is that it comes right when game devs are finally starting to target Linux. But now that big distros are switching to wayland they might not bother porting due to lack of documentation or stable apis.

>Both KDE and Gnome use systemd-logind to start wayland sessions
Right, but that's just what THEY do.
If some random group of programmers wanted to make a Wayland compositor, do they have to use systemd-logind/elogind?

>elogind
And how much of systemd does it need as dependencies?

> do they have to use systemd-logind

No, but they probably will.

I can't run bspwm+sxhkd on Wayland.

So I don't know anything about it, really.

It's network transparent enough for most things, everything I need to do anyway. You can ssh -X into some box and run just about everything.

It's no coincidence, redhat has always been a fifth column inside free software shitting out incompatible over-engineered crap that is designed to keep free software desktop down and under corporate control

Linux has been a roaring success in every place that was not under redhat control

Redhat are corporate government spooks

Red Hat are the CIA Niggers of Linux.

None. That's kinda the point of elogind and eudev, Gentoo forked udev and logind so that people could stick with OpenRC instead of using systemdick.

guys i'm way out of the loop on this meme
is redhat botnet?

Red Hat is THE botnet of Linux. Their number one customer is the U.S. government.

Wayland Compositors can as well.

Gentoo's developers efforts are great but I don't have very high hopes long-term, to be honest. They seem to be pushing more and more into systemd and adding dependencies and changing APIs all the time.

>is redhat botnet?
Absolutely.

>Nobody on earth fully understands the core code
but I do

I still use X but will switch as soon as I feel Wayland is stable enough.

ok so they're a company that sells their service to the govt.
I think one time someone in the NSA bought some Papa Johns
Is Papa Johns now botnet?

>Absolutely
elaborate

Even paying taxes is over most people's heads. Including mine. Someone explain this shit to me. If the IRS knows how much I owe why won't they just tell me.

Have no problem cause I use just a console with frame buffer

good job user

>your car is broken
>but I drove it here just fine
>no it's totally fucked
>then how did I drive it here
>that you drove it here just fine shows how broken it is

>you take your car to the service
>leave it and come back tomorrow to pick it up
>the back seat is missing
>we don't support back seats anymore, legacy feature
>the rpm meter is missing
>we don't support legacy gadgets anymore, rpm is a technical detail that confuses the user
>the car can only go to 40km/h
>safety feature, nobody wants to go faster
>reverse is missing
>bring it again in six months for upgrade, the new version will support reverse and will be brand new code, no legacy gears
Thanks redhat

still waiting for a reply to this shit

>be mechanic
>a client appears with a broken ass piece of shit
>just charge him half the cost of the car for fixes
>He doesn't give a shit
love being a mechanic

ps if you didn't get it your analogy was fucking trash and reconsider your argumentation next time

>we need to refactor this codebase
>let's bump it an entire version and declare the previous one unsupported legacy
Places like Twitch change their APIs every year. I swear it's just because they want to create their own job security.

What is happening is exactly what happened with systemd
>look everyone the current way is wrong
>this new way we are providing is the one forward

>network transparency
Even if X supports it partially (in practice). Wayland decided it to no being a part of it's design. Worst mistake ever.
Forgot about thin clients and efficient remoting
>inb4 VNC
I said efficient. VNC is the whole opposite, a slow piece of shit.