Input Lag

pavelfatin.com/typing-with-pleasure/
danluu.com/input-lag/

Why are modern computers not nearly as snappy as they used to be, Sup Forums?
What can be done to stop it?

Other urls found in this thread:

anandtech.com/show/2803
blurbusters.com/gsync/preview2/
blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101-input-lag-tests-and-settings/3/
youtu.be/_qIj_Ooq85Q?t=4m53s
dolphin-emu.org/blog/2014/03/15/pixel-processing-problems/
tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/samsung_c32hg70.htm#lag
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

Installing Gentoo helps

Could a low-latency kernel help with input lag, or are HID interrupts already handled as fast as possible on a regular kernel?

>Why are modern computers not nearly as snappy as they used to be, Sup Forums?
>What can be done to stop it?


all those things are addressed in the links you posted

muh abstractions.

use ip packets to send pixels to the screen

I wouldn't be surprised if this is partially because all our input devices are serial and without interrupts. So any host device has to poll all inputs nonstop every second to look for changed states.

This is why I love Sup Forums

he was talking about tvs, which have god awful input lag usually

And that's never going to change for me since I'm in Europe anyway.

makes sense to me. change all internal desktop connections to cat6. use cat6 to replace HDMI/displayport. connect your keyboard to desktop with cat6. problem solved

> Why are modern computers not nearly as snappy as they used to be, Sup Forums?
There's this one big thing that happened: pipelining. Pipelining usually increases throughput EXTREMELY. What suffers is usually the latency.
And pipelining happens almost everywhere in your I/O-chain: in your CPU (where it's the least of your problems), in your GPU (where it retains multiple frames), and in your screen (where different post processing techniques are pipelined, again retaining multiple frames sometimes).
People asked for throughput instead of latency (high FPS instead of low latency) and industry delivered with ease.

>not using a PS2 keyboard

And a CRT right?

Most CRTs have delays because the phosphor reacts slowly
No idea if a current memeHz LCD would be faster though

I was under the impression that an LCD was always slower. Which is why CRTs are popular with people who like fighting games and why the Duck Hunt game doesn't work on LCDs.

>why CRTs are popular with people who like fighting games
LCD TVs do have a noticeable input lag that most PC monitors don't have, also memes
>why the Duck Hunt game doesn't work on LCDs.
Has to do with LCDs not drawing new images line by line

It is partially. Table from the first link in the OP.

This can be reduced, though. If you poll at 1000hz then that's reduced to only a 1ms delay, and debouncing the keypress should take only 5ms if you're using Cherry MX switches.

You can make sure your debounce times are optimal if you use an open-source keyboard firmware such as github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard. I've been looking into rewriting the debouncing algorithm for that firmware to improve latencies, but unfortunately I fucked up recently and bricked my keyboard, and am waiting on something in the mail to fix it.

What if you could put the computer... In the screen?

The tide is changing on alot of new model TVs from Samsung and LG in terms of input lag, there still behind most 4k monitors but not by much

/thread

This tweet is pretty retarded I just realized
Sending a tiny ass packet of data to another place using millions of dollars in equipment is going to be pretty fucking quick.
If the display only had to receive a single pixel it would be pretty quick too but it's not a single pixel it's millions upon millions of pixels which use up gigabits of data I think you can excuse a few hundred dollar device for being a bit slow to processing those gigabits of data in a time sensitive matter.

I see what you're saying. Because sending a packet to Europe uses millions of dollars in equipment that is dedicated to that single packet.

You are comparing sending a packet between continents to sending a pixel literally inches.

>Complex editors (and editors that run on top of virtual machine / interpreter) in addition to higher average latency often tend to show higher variability of the delay (jitter).
emacsers on suicide watch.

owo are those elf ears?

That's not the problem at all (meeting CPU deadlines, such as when filling an audio sample buffer).
It's because window systems + browsers + drivers + etc... buffer and v-sync everything

They are devil ears.

The biggest delay in terms of keyboard input is most likely the OS.
Shit's still handled by those shitty mail event systems.

there is a difference between 1 well made virtual machine and processing 2 shitty ones one of which is a browser engine

T R I P L E T H I C C C

newer light gun games like on the playstation rely on the scanning beam of a crt, but the duck hunt just draws a whole frame with a white box where the duck is, so it could theoretically work on an LCD if if their latency was low enough

i'm fucking done

Girl on the left is a centaur

we should just go back to the atari 2600
that machine didn't even /have/ a framebuffer, so pixels went from the cpu to the screen in fuck all time

...

Ah, oops

Sounds like you're buying shit hardware if your input lag is greater than 50ms. Should be roughly 15-30ms.

They should, a 60Hz monitor refreshes every 16,(6)ms, a 144Hz a bit less than 7ms. So theoretically input lag should be lower.

OS bloat, mostly.

there's a reason I nlite my windows 10 installs.

can you remove all the "apps" in win10 with nlite?

>gameboy color
>80ms
Is this just because the screen is so shit? I can't imagine anything else causing it to be so incredibly slow.
Also,
>comparing a computer that was $1300 on its release to $1000 modern computers
He should have a rig with like 240hz or 480hz monitor and 1000hz USB polling to make it fair, that Apple 2e wasn't cheap.
Also, I bet a lot of the input lag is from the forced triple buffering on windows desktop nowadays too.

not him, but yea, you can remove most things with ntlite

nice
i have a licensed windows 10 pro, will it activate on nlite version?

no idea, i just did that for curiosity, i don't use windows
i used to use xp, and used nlite with that, but that was the vlk version, so no activation
i'd imagine it will activate fine if you don't remove components required for activation

>What can be done to stop it?
anandtech.com/show/2803
blurbusters.com/gsync/preview2/
blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101-input-lag-tests-and-settings/3/

Distance have nothing to do with it, protocol is what matters.
A screen with 2 million pixels does not have 6 million wires connected to it.
Instead, the screen "sweeps" over each pixel to set the values.
It does this over and over again to give you a steady picture.
In the most basic setup, you store all the pixel values in a framebuffer and then load a value and put in on the screen.
There will be a latency because you are not setting the pixel value directly, you are setting a value in the frame buffer which will be read automatically.
Now on a modern system we have several applications translating the data before this is set and that can be improved. But as long as the display is setting a pixel when it is time to set that pixel, there will be a fixed latency.
You could make a screen that held the frame buffer itself and then used USB to transfer pixel values and maybe cut some of that down, but I don't think people want to pay for that. Just look at the e-ink monitors people have made. They all went bankrupt within a few months because they couldn't sell it.

These are really interesting articles user, thanks for the links. Surprising amount of good content on Sup Forums today. I don't think there is a lot of discussion to be had here though.

>mfw no cheap korean tpc/ip screen

>I don't think there is a lot of discussion to be had here though.
Well other than the OP link having shit testing methodology. He's basically acting like it's the modern OS and hardware that are slow when it's really that a vast majority of modern text editing programs are shit.

tfw i would love to not use vsync on my pc but it usually results in interlacing windows slowing down each other.

I want to subscribe to your mailing list.
I'll beta test for you.

>A screen with 2 million pixels does not have 6 million wires connected to it.

Uploading the frame buffer to the display is practically instantaneous and a negligible contributor to frame latency.

/thread

brainlet of the year

>lets offload everything to the gpu
>but my gpu isnt that powerful
>lol you fucked

>Why are modern computers not nearly as snappy as they used to be, Sup Forums?
Because analog is faster than digital?

>Why are modern computers not nearly as snappy as they used to be, Sup Forums?
interrupt to polled input
crt to lcd
elements drawn directly on framebuffer to drawn to backbuffer then flipped
no animations to animating everything
immediate scrolling to smooth scrolling
etc, etc
much of it is tradeoffs between "fast" and "nice"

What could possible go wrong?
Fuck it, let's use UDP too.

Been using a Samsung UE40D6500 (40" TV) as my main desktop monitor since 6 years or so, never had any issues with input lag. It's absolutely the same as all of my other monitors. It's people's own fault when they're buying bloated "smart TVs" and then don't disable all the postprocessing and "enhancement" filters.

>Picture
Use your computer from Europe. Problem solved.

Software layer with buffer.
Build some buffer memory until x happen don't send new message for next layer.

Xerox Alto fan spotted.
It would be neat to see modern analog computers though.

And api bloat. Vulkan is the only next generation api

All CRTs have a faster response time. They're measured in microseconds rather than milliseconds.

yeah and they are blurry as fuck gtfo user they suck balls this century and its never going back

this was the case all the way up to the Nintendo DS

man i just wish my mouse cursor didn't have a noticable lag in linux distros when compared to windows...

a real bummer for me is that many people don't even notice it, but it drives me up the wall, everything feels sluggish

>Why are modern computers not nearly as snappy as they used to be, Sup Forums?
Both bad software technology stacks (think of anythin dynamic and web) and a too tight focus on throughput which can hurt latency in some cases.
>What can be done to stop it?
Nothing.

that's not true

nds does use scanline rendering though
You can optionally capture to a framebuffer but it costs a lot of VRAM that you usually don't have.

The DS is weird. I think it has anti-aliasing support and it also used fixed point math instead of floats even for rendering.

And old game consoles blow everything else out of the water in terms of response time yet again. youtu.be/_qIj_Ooq85Q?t=4m53s

That's right, there's no floating point hardware in the DS. It seems reasonably precise in practice though because you don't get the vertex jittering that plagues e.g. PS1 games.
Maybe the T&L coprocessor is better, IDK.

>It seems reasonably precise in practice though because you don't get the vertex jittering that plagues e.g. PS1 games.
Nintendo was pretty resistent towards floats.
dolphin-emu.org/blog/2014/03/15/pixel-processing-problems/
Never really noticed it in any games except Sonic Unleased though. The further you got in the stages the more jittery the polygons would get.

I think the whole point is to make cloud document editing seem feasible. Kind of like forced obsolescence.

Interesting.
I know the Gamecube (and Wii, maybe even Wii U) CPU had really shitty support for float SIMD but I don't know if it could do any better with integers.

>mfw PS2 mouse and keyboard
Fuck your chink garbage lmao

Also
>50ms+ for atom to display a character
I smirked. How can you fuck up so badly?

I used OnLive. It was great while it lasted.

Nothing.
It's still fine. It's still much faster than real typewriters.

PS/2 mice are even worse than USB mice. USB mice are by default pooled at 125Hz and can go up to 1kHz, while PS/2 mice send interrupts at 100Hz and only can go up to 200Hz.


because not only they are also pooled just like USB, the pooling rate of a PS/2 mouse is 100Hz, while USB is by default 125Hz over

>tfw I bought the little console thing a few months before they shut down
feels bad man

install the network card in the monitor
dynamic pixel resolvers

Post horse pussy

*drops mic*

I was only pretending to be retarded

>pooling rate of PS/2 mouse is 100hz

PoE monitors when?

based

brainlet here

why don't we use the same interfaces for everything? Why can't we use Ethernet for everything?

But they are comfy

>t.

smooth scrolling and UI animations are most definitely not "nice"

CRTs are perfect to play old games, though.

I'm jelly.

My dad bruises easily because of the bloodthinners he's on and tried putting one of these on top of a fridge in his garage by himself last year, it fell into his shoulder and most of the upper half of his torso was a bruise. He did get it up there though

>they are blurry as fuck
poor uninformed user

That's like an order of magnitude higher than good gaming monitors though.

tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/samsung_c32hg70.htm#lag

>Monitors optimized for input lag is beating an TV
Color me fucking surprised, that really wasn't the point, point was newer TVs are getting very close to normal monitors for input lag numbers and are very acceptable for general use. If all you care about is gaming sure, TVs and most other monitors suck, your not telling us something new we don't already know

I got it for free this year.
It's a Sony wega flat screen with component support. It works perfectly. Found it on the side of the road.

>Distance have nothing to do with it, protocol is what matters.
Grace Hopper is turning over in her grave