Bunch of computer illiterate "power" users that think they know anything about technology just because they learned how to compile a kernel keep attacking him for "not respecting the UNIX philosophy with systemd".
Fuck your system philosophy. Even Torvalds hates tradition of that sort.
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hi
Hi
This makes me wonder, what does Torvalds thinks about this boi?
Linus Torvalds said:
"I don't actually have any particularly strong opinions on systemd itself. I've had issues with some of the core developers that I think are much too cavalier about bugs and compatibility, and I think some of the design details are insane (I dislike the binary logs, for example), but those are details, not big issues."
i like pulse audio
I not as bothered about the break in tradition, and I would like Linux to be more modern and supported for desktop users, (Eg audio is way behind Windows and OSX)
It's just it feels forced up us and the work is of poor quality.
why this nigaa look like a tranny??
Torvalds doesn't care about anything but his kernel. He's known to give a shit when stuff actively affects it. See pic related, directed at Nvidia.
audio in 2008 when I started with gnu/linux was hit and miss, now is not thanks to pulseaudio
writing systemd unit is quick and easy, no more rc.local or cron shit for startup script, also managing dependencies is comfy and disabling services is more straightforward than hunting for init.d scripts or /etc/default configuration files
I don't like binary logs, google dns debacle, bug attitude and the fact is a giant attack surface and they keeping adding stuff
the upside is that is comfy managing services in a distro agnostic way
>now is not thanks to pulseaudio
Actually pulseaudio has been pretty buggy for me lately. I actually switched back to pure ALSA because I got tired of sound randomly not working on boot up.
>>I don't like binary logs, google dns debacle, bug attitude and the fact is a giant attack surface and they keeping adding stuff
>>the upside is that is comfy managing services in a distro agnostic way
So lemme sum this up.
>systemd is a dumpster fire with binary logs, a dns fallback that disrespects user privacy, has many unresolved bugs that will likely come back to bite everyone in the ass at some point, and has a constantly growing attack surface that has hit over 1 million LoC.
>but MUH COMFIES!!!
That's the thing. systemd is very comfy and practical if how you want to run your system matches one of the use cases it was designed for. If you go anywhere outside the bounds of what the systemd people have decided you need, then suddenly you're in dumpster fire territory and you are just shit out of luck. This is why greybearded admins rage against it, while people just running ubuntu on their laptop generally like it. Developers seem to be a hit and a miss as to where they fall on that scale.
convenience is always a detriment for security user, no way around this
also these are problem easily addressed changing the development team, the source is there
now that every major distro is using it we can assume things will get better i hope
Nice bait, youre retarded. Systemd is bad
pulseaudio has been the only reason my audio messes up. Been using gnu/linux since 08 aswell
people just running ubuntu on their laptops don't even have much reason to fuck around with services and shit anyway.
>convenience is always a detriment for security user, no way around this
sadly yes.
PulseAudio is getting replaced.
I couldn't make this shit up if I tried.
pipewire.org
If it actually works well, I'm all for it.
It can't possibly be worse than pulseaudio, so sounds good.
You have no idea how bad shit was before ALSA. Don't pretend that pulse being not perfect is the same as it being bad.
Kek
Daily reminder that systemd is free software.
>You have no idea how bad shit was before ALSA.
Oh, I do. I remember how finicky OSS was.
It was finicky and messy in a predictable way, though. If things didn't work, it was almost always clear why it didn't work and what needed fixing. In contrast, if pulseaudio decides to not work today, or manages to pull a weird preference out of its ass (it manages to reset my sound level to some default whenever I plug in my headphones), you sacrifice a goat and pray to the gods and hope that fixes it.
>Don't pretend that pulse being not perfect is the same as it being bad.
It is definitely bad in comparison to ALSA, which it replaced. I could consider it an improvement over OSS, but OSS was long gone by the time pulseaudio came into the picture. Compared to ALSA, pulseaudio is a clear regression.
First off, systemd is not an init system, it has an init system as part of the systemd suite. systemd is a project to build a standardised lowlevel userland for Linux. The project is pretty comprehensive and it delivers a lot of functionality under one umbrella. It does away with a lot of older, often undermaintained software packages, which were traditionally used to assemble a low level userland.
Which is where the contention comes from, as a system suite systemd is restrictive for Unix virtuosi who are used to tailor a system with wit, ingenuity, a lick and a prayer and a couple dozen of unrelated packages. systemd makes such knowledge useless.
The faction that thinks that systemd is Linux's Hiroshima, finds all the added functionality bloat, unnecessary and dangerous, as it is all under development in one project.
All the systemd jokes stem from the comprehensiveness as a low level system suite. People against it love to joke that one day systemd will write its own kernel.
There is a lot of FUD and hate going around. Some arguments do have merit, a lot of eggs in one basket is certainly true, but as with all things in life, it depends which tradeoff you prefer. Do you want a suite of well designed software, working closely together, so that system management is streamlined or do you want the complete freedom to tailor your own low level system with a lot of time tested, interchangeable components.
I have no desire to be a low level system designer, so I prefer systemd. I don't hate traditional init systems though. If a Linux system has one and I need to work with it, I'm still happy it boots and starts the necessary services.
>systemd is a project to build a standardised lowlevel userland for Linux
That's why I hate it.
Yes, a monolithic lowlevel userland that uses Jewgle DNS as a fallback, has binary logs, leaves tons of bugs unsolved, has an unbelievably large attack surface, and can leave the system vulnerable to being bricked on the firmware level.
I don't know what it was like before but pulse audio is complete and utter trash. Try using a pair if Bluetooth headphones.
>Which is where the contention comes from, as a system suite systemd is restrictive for Unix virtuosi who are used to tailor a system with wit, ingenuity, a lick and a prayer and a couple dozen of unrelated packages. systemd makes such knowledge useless.
No, the contention comes from the fact that systemd is designed to support a handful of specific use cases, and if you want your low-level userland to do anything that is not part of the scope set by the systemd devs, you are on your on. And because it has tried very hard to not just be A low-level userland but rather THE ONE STANDARD low-level userland, many things that used to be quite common and practical are no longer reasonably possible at all.
A system that tries to be THE ONE STANDARD low-level userland had better be comprehensive enough to cover ALL the things people might require from a low-level userland, and not just the parts they feel like supporting. The fact that tries to do both without doing the other is what has gotten it the seething rage from the people who occasionally want to do things with their unix systems other than the Official Five Acceptable Workflows.
>The faction that thinks that systemd is Linux's Hiroshima, finds all the added functionality bloat, unnecessary and dangerous, as it is all under development in one project.
All the added functionality is fine. But if that functionality comes with restrictions as to the workflows it can support -- if there are things people might reasonably want to do that you cannot do in the system as a cost of the added functionality -- then yes, I do want the ability to disable those pieces of functionality piecemeal. Which is why more classic unix systems have those pieces of functionality as separate independent parts that you may or may not want to use. systemd, on the other hand, has an all-or-nothing bundle, and if one of its pieces of functionality is in your way, well sucks to be you.
I've never encountered dumpster fire territory. Can you give me some examples? I'm genuinely interested.
Trying to preserve the order of your DNS servers. systemd currently just says "fuck you" if you don't do it their way.
github.com
>Unix philosophy
use plain text for all the things.
>Systemd philosophy
use DBus for all the things.
One might say that one is better than the other. If they collectively looked outside their little bubbles they'd soon realize that both DBus and plain text are complete fucking garbage, that better systems exist, and that we could create even better systems that don't exist yet but we're too busy wasting time with crappy tools and 1970s software.
Hmm... what is your magical better system? Enlighten us.
Lennart isn't to blame for a lot of this.
The udev people should have continued maintaining standalone udev that didn't rely on systemd.
Major distros should have supported alternatives instead of just giving up and forcing you to use systemd if you wanted to be able to install things through their package manager.
There's nothing wrong with pulse audio. It follows the unix design philosophy; it has one job: mix audio.
Someone ported pulseaudio to freebsd, so it's reasonably portable.
>writing systemd unit is quick and easy, no more rc.local or cron shit for startup script, also managing dependencies is comfy and disabling services is more straightforward than hunting for init.d scripts or /etc/default configuration files
OpenRC does all of this as well, except it only does this. It doesn't also provide udev, cryptsetup, mount, dbus, journald, etc.
It feels a lot more straightfoward to do things in OpenRC than it does in SystemD.
Well shit, that's definitely a problem.
Glad I use network manager.
My take on systemd is that unit files are nice and it shouldn't be anything other than an init system.
Fuck systemd-boot, systemd-network, systemd-login.
>/etc/default configuration files
Funny you mentioned that, because that's the exact same issue I had on a systemd distro.
Pipewire is basically trying to solve two problems.
>take JACK+PulseAudio's best parts and make a single low latency framework for Linux audio
>make a video decode system that can communicate across a Flatpak sandbox so Flatpaks don't have to bundle FFMPEG and play Russian Roulette with software patent lawyers
What sort of workflows do you find impossible with systemd?
>It feels a lot more straightfoward to do things in OpenRC than it does in SystemD.
you aint seen nothin yet.
Try runit (void linux).
>DNS has been working just fucking fine on port 53 for god fucking knows how long
>I know guys, let's design a system that uses something other than port 53 for DNS
>Why? Why not?
Just a sample of this retard's faggotry.
>DBus
>plain text
Aren't unix sockets typically used for IPC? There are usually system calls to avoid having to parse through plaintext files like /proc/meminfo. Those files mostly exist to be a nice interface for a human using the CLI.
systemd isn't even required for dbus. There's an openbsd port for dbus. dbus seems to follow the unix design philosophy of being a thing that does IPC.
I tried void. The installer didn't have an option to do luks+lvm and the only documentation to do it were just a bunch of poorly documented scripts people had written to do it. Seems like a meme. I'll stick with Gentoo.
>My take on systemd is that unit files are nice and it shouldn't be anything other than an init system.
Someone tried to do that (uselessd), but they eventually gave up probably because they found it impossible.
>Seems like a meme. I'll stick with Gentoo
wew
you can call it a meme all you want, but it's pretty comfy if you know what you're doing. It has good documentation too.
DBus is built on unix sockets. DBus-activated processes are literally Satan and I want to shoot whoever came up with that idea. At one point I had to chmod a-x a binary to stop DBus from starting it over and over.
"When it comes to systemd, you may expect me to have lots of colourful opinions, and I just don't," Torvalds told iTWire in an interview. "I don't personally mind systemd, and in fact my main desktop and laptop both run it.
In a reference to a spat he had with Kay Sievers, one of the main developers of systemd, Torvalds added: "Now, I don't get along with some of the developers and think they are a bit too cavalier about bugs and compatibility, but I'm also very much not in the camp of people who hate the very thought of systemd."
Was that a bug in dbus that caused it? Is there something in dbus that restarts a program every time it's killed?
ITT: The Lennart Fan Club
still waiting on this.
Poettering is the hero we need, not the one we deserve.
>Even Torvalds hates tradition of that sort.
But he thinks the systemd crew are retarded
It's more of a GNOME/KDE thing. They would immediately start an application that was requested over DBus even if you had deliberately not started it.
The better systems are the low level IPCs with capability based security used in various microkernel projects (eg, seL4/Fiasco.OC, HelenOS). Linux lacks a sufficiently good IPC system capable of high performance message passing, multicast, not tied to any particular serialization format, and easy to program for (ideally, includes a turing complete language for specifying IDLs).
Plain text is just a complete dog shit way of communicating between processes. Lets pipe the output through grep half a dozen times with all these hacked up regex to get the information we're after.
Systemd is a step in the right direction, but its dependency on dbus for everything is like building a castle on sand. Junk in, junk out.
How is that an issue with dbus and not an issue with gnome/kde? Why don't you just use xfce?
>Audio is behind Windows and MacOS
As someone that has used Linux almost exclusively since 1995, I have to agree with this. And it's not just the amount of bullshit you may or may not have to go through with setting which device is the default if you've got a graphics card with HDMI output, or any of the other annoying shit that you sometimes have to deal with in Linux sound systems. It's the whole experience. I was given a macbook air by a friend and when I plugged in a pair of headphones to watch a movie while in the waiting room for a doctor's appointment, the sound was so impressive that I was totally floored. Now, I'm sure some of that is the hardware as macbooks do have a really good internal DAC, but also despite having thunderbolt output to HDMI, it switched over flawlessly when the HDMI output was active and went back to speakers or headphones when it wasn't. I wish Linux did this. I have a laptop with HDMI out and the kernel will sometimes load the HDMI audio module first, so my configs are totally useless because card0 is no longer the actual sound card, when some boots it is. And blacklisting the HDMI audio module isn't an option because sometimes i actually need HDMI audio output.
I often have to help my parents get the sound to work on their windows PC. usually I have to manually go into the sound menu and switch the default from HDMI to speakers or something like that. It's no worse than what I have to deal with on pulseaudio.
>udev people should have continued maintaining standalone udev that didn't rely on systemd.
The gentoo people are doing this
>Linux to be more modern and supported for desktop users
and pulse audio does nothing to help
the gentoo people are doing this because the original maintainers abandoned it
if you can't write a simple shell script for sysvinit, why are you even using linux?
hi nsa
>Poettering is the faggot we need, not the one we deserve.
ftfy
Have you tried teaching your retarded parents?
you have potteryaudio to thank for that
Ubuntu cops a lot of shit but really it's REDHAT behind:
>systemd
>pulseaudio
>wayland
>gnome3
>register to get patches
Pretty cancerous if you ask me, and likely a lot of it is an underhanded attempt to take the wind out of Ubuntu's sails. But Ubuntu is just a better system all around, a better server by far. Redhat is garbage.
Nice pasta fuckwit
>I'm surprised mac outputs sound so well without any configuration on their own proprietary hardware around which the whole OS was built