Classical composers get better as they get older

>classical composers get better as they get older
>rock, pop, jazz, rap, ambient, electronic musicians get worse as they get older

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Classical is gay .

Would have been better off naming this thread, "Aesthetics Relativism: Or How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love Intellectual Dishonesty."

Mozart is underrated.

>every other genre has gone under heavy style shifts in instruments, styles, and composition
>every other genre has been a reflection of societal influences
pls link a modern classical piece that reflects modern taste and isn't part of some soundtrack

As I said, metal is the closest thing to classical we have today.

>muh fads

mcfucking kill yourself

Literally you

You meme'd me good. God forbid I don't pay attention to every transient new thing in popular music. I'm sure it will all be very important one hundred years from now. And before you say shit like "MUH BEETLES MUH ROLLIN STONES" that shit is the power of marketing, not music.

And you bought it.

Hot meme

theguardian.com/music/2008/sep/08/classical.metal.fans.study

metalinjection.net/latest-news/metal-science/science-proves-metal-fans-and-classical-fans-are-identical-personality-wise

vancouversun.com/entertainment/Rock Amadeus Classical heavy metal music share energy passion/8170367/story.html

prezi.com/yozqowwinby8/similarities-between-metal-and-classical-music/

The songs themselves won't be important but their influence and how they affected the next iteration of new genres and styles will.
You'll still be deep-throating the magic flute and will continue stay irrelevant to everyone else.

That's fine with me. The average is mediocre by definition. Continue to desperately chase the latest trends, I'm sure the practice fits your oh-so very unique and sparkling personality.

A lot of extreme metal bands (Morbid Angel, Necrophagist, Obscura, Decrepit Birth, etc.) write such chromatic music that it almost becomes atonal.

>fluff studies based on personality testes

suicide pills, mass murder pills, stop turning the frogs gay

Isn't jazz much more like classical than meal?

I reject the claims about how skillful classical musicians are compared to rock. Oh, please. Does anyone honestly think the triangle player in an orchestra has more skill than Dave Lombardo? Or does the timpanist even? Do most first violinists in most orchestras have more skill than someone who has devoted an entire lifetime to perfecting electric guitar like Eddie Van Halen? Somehow I doubt it.

Wait... did you just imply that you think people are arguing that individual members of each orchestra are more talented than rock musicians? Please tell me that is what you actually think...

Classical music is a lot more like a craft. Not saying it is a craft and not art, but knowing how to think and write music in a very high level is a very important thing for a composer. When music is inherently classical in its approach - setting bars and values, "improvement" is much more straightforward and derivative.

Pop music puts a bigger emphasis on subjective/abstract significance - The way the music feels powerful, fresh, culturally relevant. This things are hard to measure or define, therefore hard to practice and polish.

Correct. A+

However, the emphasis on individuality and subjective modes of expression creates A LOT of bullshit. And due to the fact that there is literally nowhere else to go when it concerns putting notes together, musicians are compelled to focus more on concepts than physical virtuosity and "knowledge of music".

This is why I think that generations from now, the artists who put more emphasis on technological erudition and psychoacoustics will be the 2nd standard of measurement for things that relate to sound.

I do disagree with this to an extent, though at the same time I agree with it.

I honestly believe that classical musicians are the most technically and musically advanced in general. The skill and devotion necessary to play a classical acoustic instrument such as a cello or a violin (just to stick with the ones that I know the best) at the caliber that most of these professional musicians play at is a feat almost unmatchable by any other genre.

However this doesn't undermine any other musician's abilities or their instrument/genre. I think that Classical as a genre has become very elitist in the way that they see musicians and therefore judge on miniscule imperfections as opposed to the actual artistry or musicianship presented. Of course I do to a degree lump myself in with these "elitists" and believe that this level of ability should always be pursued by every musician, but in essence, I see no reason why this undermines an entire genre when if nothing else it just shows that it has room for improvement.

Fascinating theory.
I freely admit that i know next to nothing about current developments in 'Metal', but it's never struck me as harmonically sophisticated enough to be thought of on the same level as modern jazz or classical.
Having said that, my perception of where Metal and Classical meet, is limited to so called neo-classical guitarists like Malmsteem, who are technically very proficient but leave me completely cold.

Percussion maybe, but I doubt the best classical violinists would have a hard time with a typical Eddie Van Halen solo if given the notation for it. Yet I don't think EVH could play Paganini pieces at all. I don't think EVH could also play the best and most technical classical guitar pieces either.

I'm not dissing EVH. I think he's a great player within his own idiom. I just find it difficult to assess and compare levels of 'skill' across different genres and instruments.

I totally agree about Malmsteen. Neoclassial metal is little more than glorified thrash/hair metal with a talented guitarist, but zero compositional skills. I'm not talking about people mimicking old composers' music on a heavily distorted guitar. I'm talking about people realizing the unique potential of the instrumentation and style that they utilize.

Do people who say "metal is the closest thing to classical today" realize classical music is still being made?

I wouldn't be so sure about all that. A lot of people consider the song "Black Sabbath" by Black Sabbath to be the first definitive metal piece (not all but enough to make it conventional wisdom). The band says they were just playing around with the Mars "riff" from Holst's The Planets but tried different notes. One combination used the tritone interval aka the Devil's Trill and they all thought "Well, that's really weird. Let's use that." They may not have known exactly what they were doing or had the words for it, but there couldn't be a clearer connection with classical.

Anyone noticed that there's always a token metal dude trying to convince everybody of some kind of link between metal/classical on every classical YT video?

I get what you're saying, but "technologically erudite" music tends to age horribly. When its approach is "classical" - whatever sonic/structural achievements it reached will either be topped or will lose relevancy 5-10 years from when it's released. The universal nature of classical music (always the same notes, same instruments) is what made it possible for masterpieces to emerge and solidify as standards.

"psychoacoustics", if I understand you correctly - the ability to measure and analyze the way music is experienced rather than constructed - is a fascinating Idea. First time I hear this term. If it would ever become a popular thing, a new world of standards in music will be a possibility.

That's mostly a white superiority thing.

I'd also argue that metal actually is less flexible and has more hurdles in its path than many other styles; it is much harder to convincingly combine other genres with metal than forms of music with less strict requirements to fit their definitions. Jazz, for example, has much more flexibility in terms of overall sound and even instruments used, once you've begun to stretch metal into new realms it can only go so far before it is no longer classed as metal.

Can metal be made without distortion or is an effect pedal a necessary element?

Kanye invented music.. to call him a composer is beneath him. No classical composer can ignite my imagination with fire the way Ye has done.

>"technologically erudite" music tends to age horribly
Well I'm not saying that's the ONLY factor in the equation, as that doesn't account for taste.

>The universal nature of classical music (always the same notes, same instruments) is what made it possible for masterpieces to emerge and solidify as standards.
Very true. And it seems like we're currently in a state of limbo, where it's either superficial and narcissistic pop musicians, or the clusterfuck of electronic music.

>the way music is experienced rather than constructed
Exactly

It seems like a lot of art is going towards the "experience" side of things, I mean, just look at video games. VR is going to cause a major paradigm shift for all aural and image based art forms when the technology further advances. It will be interesting.

>VR is going to cause a major paradigm shift for all aural and image based art forms when the technology further advances
Eventually music will become "Music" with a capital M, and people will feel as much of an impetus to make cave drawings as they would to create an album of songs.

You're probably right. Something about that feels sad to me, probably a reaction how alien the concept is but, still.

>twf when you can hear birds outside eclipse any arguments made within this thread

>metal is the closest thing to classical we have today.
No it isn't. contemporary classical is the closest thing we have to classical today.

I'm always surpised by how many people think art music just stopped happening after Beethoven. The 20th century saw some of the most interesting and unusual music ever written, and yet almost no metal heads know Schoenberg or Gerard Grisey or Brian Ferneyhough.

Ferneyhough was doing brutal hyper-complexity with electronic and live instruments in the 70s, 40 years before all your "complex" periphery shite.

Atonality only works if you have a system to work within. playing random notes out of scale doesn't make something good. Look at Webern if you want great atonal writing. Atonalirt and serialism was mastered 50 years before metal even existed. Its old news by now.

If Mozart's so good, how come he's dead?

>Listening to music by people with no musical knowledge

why do you do this to yourself? There's so much great music out there written by highly trained musical geniuses. 500 years worth. You will never run out of masterpieces with classical. Why waste your time on music written by untrained plebs and packaged / marketed specifically for you to buy?


Composers of art music have always been at the cutting edge of innovation. They already know all the current techniques, and so are in a perfect position to push the envelope.

A metalhead playing "atonal" music 100 years after it was pioneered is just sad.

Because God wanted him in heaven

Can we just all admit Edison killed music by inventing recording technology which led to popular music being industrialized thus making a majority of music into a meaningless product for the proles to enjoy

Recording and production killed music

Yeah, so we agree on pretty much everything. The ability to analyze the experience music creates will create a combination between the two approaches we have right now - a modern approach that is both experience-oriented and bullshit-proof.

>Edison killed music
I dunno about that, but I'm definitely going to say that next time someone starts taking about contemporary music
>"fuckin Edison, man... if it wasn't for that faggot, I wouldn't have to hear about your opinions on what constitutes "true" Black Metal"

Quit being ridiculous, the fact that Mozart is dead has nothing to do with the quality of my music.

Absolutely

I'd say this has been in it's developmental stages for a while now (electro-acoustic stuff, and even many of the so-called Darmstadt composers were concerned with this). I think sound-artists such as Kevin Drumm and Florian (not Tim) Hecker are at the forefront of contemporary psychoacoustic experimentation; although it's far too esoteric for mass-appeal at the moment.

A lot of great art music was made for electronic instruments or with electronic analysis.

Music never "dies" it just evolves.

For example Stockhausen and Babbits early electronic works, Ferneyhough's combination of live performers and recording / effects, the spectralists using waveform analysis to inform their compositions, Tristan Murail's intergration of electronic sounds into his pieces, Martinu's fantasia for theremin, oboe etc, Lera Auerbach's use of theremin. Messiaen's use of Ondes Martenot in his Turangalila sinfonie.

Wouldn't you say a lot of these avenues are going to be dead ends considering the most important new tech for music could be just around the corner? That's what's always bothered me about modern experiments, they quickly become outdated.

The challenge is to create something timeless using modern techniques or sensibilities. Thats where the great composers shine. They can create something using "disposable" tech that will be outdated in a few years, and yet what they create outlives that tech by orders of magnitude.

Reminder that Autechre are art music since they only get better as they get older.

Some popular music is good

You just have to get to the good stuff like James Ferraro

Stockhausen had mastered what Autechre attempted 60 years before them. And his pieces were all scored out before being "realized" on electronic instruments.

Autechre from what I know aren't trained composers, they dont write scores, and their music doesn't get played by live performers from said scores in a concert hall setting.

ergo they aren't art music.

It's funny, earlier I was trying to think of the epitome of retarded shit that has almost no discernable artistic value -- yet had been lauded by dipshit critics -- and this is it. Thanks, user.

>my

stop trying to meme up autechre

like it or not James Ferraro is currently composing the soundtrack to the hyper globalist primitive capitalistic cybernetic faux-posh society of the post- 9/11 world.

He will be a major stepping stone for music

Lol. Ever notice how it's always the artists who feel the need to bullshit the most about their work that often produce the weakest results?

>"oh, you don't enjoy my album of farts? Well perhaps you should read my 40 page artist statement"

Laugh about it all you want. When you hear his music you hear boring dull repetitive lo-fi elevator music

But I hear 1000 condensed 2 hour tracks of muzak from malls all across the world weeping for us to return to them and ushering a new age of clean affordable electronic products.

James Ferraro's music is a mirror of the post-modern internet-age world and we are simply its reflection

Autechre aren't art music but they're still one of the very few popular music acts that can be put on par with art music, for the exact reason you've mentioned.

Ok, ok, I surrender... James Ferraro truly is the voice of a generation.

I now understand why The Wire magazine feels the need to give him a write-up in every fucking issue.

birds are plebs, their is music is simplistic and repetitive

Absolutely.

I'm pretty sure it's someone who hates them. Maybe turny.

but ferraro is famous because of his amazing music and his music is really straightforward not some kind of pretentious music like opn and blunt where they talk about it with hours but the end result is shit.of course ferraro too have a bit of blabbering about his music but its mostly so the people will actually listen to it.

Extremely underrated posts.

If only Stockhausen or Boulez could have sang like Van Vliet or Jim Morrison.

>this thread

NUKE THIS BOARD

It's almost as though people don't realize that not everything in music can be written down.

Classical is complex and structured, it is challenging for composers, performers and even audiences. You can find new details every time you listen to a piece, even just by studying a score. The listening experience develops with time. It's centralized top-down.

Pop genres are about easy access. and what you hear the first time is what you will always hear. Room for improvisation for individual performers. Songs make perfect sense even if your concentration is shaky. It is decentralized and bottom-up.

Jazz is actually kind of in between, but I'm gonna assume OP is one of those people who say they listen to 'all kinds' of music, meaning he knows very little music at all.

>Art rock, progressive rock, jazz, pop

George Martin was consistent
Phill Spector too
Quincy Jones
Robert Fripp too

all of them based their production under classical influences tho

You could consider Max Martin as an consistent hits production.

>math rock, gruge, industrial rock

steve albini, trent reznor

>Rap/pop hop

Its true, looking to some of the claimmed big producers like Kanye West hes declining, he can't do it himself no more, he used an "production group" formed by lile 30 other producers including Charle Heat, Metroboomin and Mike Dean but what came out is not elite. His last most-self produced was... "College Dropout" and 808&Heartbreak.
John Brion helped him on "Late Registration" and Rick rubin/arca/thomas/hudson etc on "Yeezus".

I think the exception to the "law" are a few lile Dr. Dre, 40 Noah Shebid, Rick Rubin, Boi-1da, No I.D. (kanyes mentor).

u sound f*cking gay

As a fan of all those you mentioned (especially Albini and Fripp), I respectfully disagree that they got better as they got older. I think old guys can consistently put out "pretty good" stuff as they get old (e.g. Fripp, David Thomas), but not one of those musicians you listed ever surpassed or even met the work they made during their heyday. That being said, IMO, some of the best popular music albums were released by guys over the age of 30 and even 40, though in each of those circumstances, I imagine it was because they just started seriously exploring music.

I also don't think that most Romantic or 20th century composers got better as they get older either.