let's discuss
why are metalhead butthurting over HHH's manifesto?
his theory on black metal is actually kinda interesting, he's besically saying that he's trying to replace the nihilistic edgelordery (you can't deny) with more mature contents such as affirmation and glory, he's just porposing a break with the past, he's not even saying hyperborean bm is shit
also those who say he's using pretentious words has clearly never read continental philosophy
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Because I don't like his music, simple as that. I couldn't care less about his autistic ramblings.
People who listen to black metal in general take it way to seriously, he's no different, if not worse. Who writes a fucking manifesto about music? An edgelord.
Isn't the whole point of black metal to destroy all that comes before it and reaffirm the seriousness of art? What is so wrong with what HHH is doing? I don't particularly enjoy his music (though I find it interesting), but just the idea of constructing a manifesto is more in line with BM's true ideology than any "trve cvlt" lofi black metal that is made today
every classical composer since dark ages
because he's some random American kid who's just trying to magically change a Scandinavian genre
(inb4 Brits invented black metal shut the fuck up it's a scandi genre)
Metalheads are fucking autistic, lmao
because he's just building a strawman and knocking it down
his music is good, he picked up more interesting ideas than "i wanna make black metal - but not" later down the line too, and i appreciate just the fact that he did put forth a concept like this, and put thought into why his music should be the way it is beyond something like "i like this style", but really the ideas behind the manifesto are at worst based on a narrow-minded view of the genre and at best, just regurgitating his influences. also it's been discussed to death already
what's wrong with taking music or art seriously if it's what you're passionate about?
>change
more like appropriate & recontextualize, which just amounts to putting his own spin on it, which a fuckton of bands do. but of course you can't deliver a manifesto without making it clear you're hot shit, who ever did that?
No you idiot. The whole point of black metal is to be fucking evil and fucking primitive.
name other bm bands with a similar approach to hunter's then
Fanisk
only difference they don't have a rapper
well HHH always mentions Emperor as his main BM inspiration because they took the primitive, grimy and crude sound of black metal and turned it into something ambitious, elaborate and grandiose.
that's the problem, it's just a waste of energy and a propaganda of deviant ideologies
Hitler could be considered a rapper. If you put a few syncopated beats behind his speeches you got yourself a pretty sick mixtape.
What? No. The whole "evil" and "primitive" thing were just some of the means to get to the point BM was trying to make, namely to counter the irony of Death Metal bands at the time which to them did not take itself seriously, as well as to reaffirm cultural traditions and to provoke everyone that didn't agree with them. But as a whole Black Metal is extremely self-conscious, Scandinavian Black Metal shows where more akin to performance art than to just ordinary metal concerts
What ideology though?
There's no ideological framework behind making fucking primitive and fucking evil music. A bunch of 2nd Wave dudes tried to do that and nobody remembers what they said about it because ultimately what it boils down to is.........
...................
(sip)......................
...........Satan
say no more
youtube.com
What the fuck are you on about?
It's not called performance art it's called stage theatrics and those have been part of metal since Judas Priest.
Why try to counter the irony of Death Metal, if not because it was too sophisticated and not raw enough for your own tastes?
the 2nd Wave dudes liked Venom, Sarcofago and Sodom, so when they saw how ridiculous the whole death metal thing was getting, they fucking played the same shit as Sarcofago because they liked it.
And Sarcofago played primitive and evil music not as a reaction against death metal but because they liked it.
those are quads
BM fan here. It's not so much that he's trying to change black metal, it's how pretentious and incoherent his discussion on it is. Most metal fans agree that Aesthethica is a good album or at least an interesting one. Only the most "only trve metal, Mayhem and Celtic Frost, WHOOOO \m/" types hate it because it's not kvlt enough (but they hate everything).
The manifesto could be condensed into a page or two but he rambles on and on about how he's invented a new philosophy. I imagine there's something much grander he's trying to reveal (especially with the Kel Valhaal 01010N Reign Array stuff) because he's clearly a smart guy, but it's mostly a mess when he's talking about it in a musical context.
But that's Goebbels
This speech is super famous
because he overintellectualises black metal- the language he's using to communicate his ideas makes the idea of inverting trad black metal aesthetics and themes seem like a bigger deal than it is.
it just seems super self-aggrandizing and incoherent- while he's got cool ideas and aesthethica is really good, he's trying to make out that he's created a totally original and revolutionary philosophy of music instead of coming up with a neat musical style and aesthetic. if he just let it speak for itself, liturgy would get a lot less hate imo.
>if he just let it speak for itself, liturgy would get a lot less hate imo.
this, his problem is that the whole need to explain shit comes off as condescending. Like nobody will be smart enough to get what he's trying to do so he needs to write this fucking book. Which defeats the whole purpose really if you need to explain everything you're doing then you're not doing it right, especially when it comes to music which is supposed to be self evident
>butthurting
>not lmaoing
yeah especially with Aesthethica which was supposed to be this nearly magical elevating experience that automatically turns you into a good person from hearing it (supposedly like how black metal makes you evil or how pop makes you dumb)
since then HHH has realized that it didn't quite work.
He's trying to artificially create a subculture all on his own.
But the issue is that we have no fucking idea what his subculture actually consists in.
His aesthetics and ideas have actually been fleshed out more by satyrical memery from Sup Forums than by his own explanations and art.
kek any more memes like this
that was a scriabin inside joke sorta
The rabbithole goes down very deep
see that screenshot?
That's from his rehearsal video (with that typical stuttered youtubepoop editing) where he narrates a dream he had while also showing himself naked in a hotel room.
as you can see it says "shame"
Now, HHH's ideal world of pure intellectual prospects, drama and joy is called the sovereign hierarchico-emancipatory individuation municipality
which spells out "SHEIM"
which sounds like "shame"
which is small and pink in this shot
and juxtaposed with shots of his dick
coincidence?
HHH is the acceptable NY left arthouse substitute for what anus/DLA has been putting forth for the last two decades. Considering this, he's managed to be even more obfuscated and incoherent as them.
...
also he zoomed in several times on his armpit because it made an illuminati triangle at one point
what the fuck is this are you memeing?
...
I'm being purely factual.
If you haven't watched his video go to his vimeo account (kel valhaal) right now
he even appears with Chris-Chan glasses at one point
holy fuck what is this what is he talking about I'm speechless
he was rehearsing his speech at hideous gnosis
No fucking way this isn't ironic looks like some Pupinia Stewart/Sam Hyde shit
some Tim & Eric shit to be more precise
praise ba'haa priss'dimmie
Philosophy doctoral student here (specialising in the stuff HHH is into) and I can confirm that his all his philosophy is basically saying nothing much at all. All three of his "published" articles (all in edited volumes by one of his friends called Edia Connole, I'm friends with her on Facebook and she just spams his stuff constantly) just talk about his own work. And he knows how to lie about his influences: he says he is into spectralism and Bulgarian folk music where what he actually means is that he likes bagpipes because he is into Swans and they use them, then just reads backwards and finds them in fluxus (Tashi Wada et al) and then also Bulgarian folk. Suddenly his music is something more because of intertextuality and because he says so rather than any musical innovation. Pic related.
There's also something deeply disturbing about the grandson of an oil billionaire appropriating rap music and singing in a Jamaican accent. Plus the whole use of the mental illness aesthetic, love of German romanticism, veneration of Wagner, Nietzsche, other white dudes etc. There really isn't that much different between HHH and Varg Vikernes at the end of the day.
holy ssshit i can't belive "black metal theory" is a thing
I liked the album, but then again I enjoy listening to someone going completely bonkers while a microphone is recording it all.
Yeah, its quite a trend now. Seems to only be the Speculative Realists who are into it. Nicola Masciandaro, Eugene Thacker and co.
this is fucking stupid. why would taking art seriously be a bad thing? i bet you only listen to ironic meme rap.
>Most metal fans agree that Aesthethica is a good album or at least an interesting one
i wish this were the case. every time i try to talk about it with metalheads here, they say it's shit (and often times even dismiss it as blackgaze, which i seriously don't understand at all. it has nothing to do with blackgaze)
because it's metal for people that don't like metal
much like sunbather
it'd be like trying to have a serious discussion about Odd Future or Hopsin with people who are really into hip hop
but that's a retarded, baseless assumption. why do metalheads always have such polarized views of the world? it's always this childish 'us against them' attitude. not everything in the world is black and white. you're allowed to like more than one thing. i like traditional metal, and i like liturgy. (deafheaven is shit though)
Who's anus/dls?
>why do metalheads always have such polarized views of the world?
For a long time you're told your taste in music sucks, stick to your own kind, etc., then some tourists come along and tell you that you need to like X band and it you don't you're just a pretentious asshole.
it's more like discussing anticon stuff
>it's metal for people that don't like metal
thanks to context yeah but on the other hand i dont see where the crossover appeal lies, unlike with sunbather. it borrows from djent but it's not periphery fans that see it as the second coming of emperor, is it? so it's in a weird position where there's no real target audience for it
anus.com
or
deathmetal.org
they're precisely the guys people talk about when they complain about stuff like "metalheads take their silly genre so seriously/always claim it's the new classical/hate everything that isn't kvlt"
nobody's saying you have to like liturgy. i just think it's dumb that metalheads always shit on them simply because they don't sound like the traditional stuff.
Ah I thought you were talking about like a right wing electronic black metal band. You wouldn't happen to know of any bands that mix between the two though would you?
Because metal is built on tribal values and promotes them to a small degree.
And that's why it's fun not just to listen to metal, but also to be a metalhead, in spite of the bullshit rivalries and antagonisms between sub-scenes.
Maybe Sumac?
I personally don't like Liturgy, but people do and that's fine. That whole Deafheaven thing three years ago was awful, I don't even mind them but I got really tired of hearing how ignorant metal heads were for not embracing them.
Not him, but I play professionally as a session cellist and play quite well on guitar, drums, and bass... I practice about 2-3 hours a day split between my instruments focusing primarily on cello and drums.
And if anything I think very little of music other than it's a fun little bit of aural stimulation.
The idea of taking yourself seriously enough to write literature about dissenting in a genre as 1-dimensional as metal while hitting the fretty twanger and recording some blips into a DAW honestly makes me laugh.
I guess I don't think it's a bad thing, just a bit absurd.
I showed his manifesto to a friend of mine with a MA in philosophy. My friend stated that the entire manifesto "makes no sense" and consists of "metaphors that leverage philosophical language" as Hunter tries to "derive fixed principles from a music subgenre". So, in layman's terms, the manifesto is shallow and devoid of meaning.
It sounds good and I did forget these guys existed so thanks for that but idk if that's really what I was looking for. I guess heavier to the electronic side of the scale
I can only speak for myself, but there's apparently this assumption that Liturgy and Deafheaven count as actual metal.
Like, there's a shitload of youtube comments (and Sup Forums posts) from indie/bloop kids saying "wow that's weird, I normally don't like black metal, but I like Liturgy" as if there was anything surprising or weird about that.
As if Liturgy could be judged by the same standards as black metal
As if it could give you any insight into black metal
As if you could brag about listening to black metal just because you like Liturgy
As if Liturgy was somehow doing black metal better than other bands just because indie kids like it
(same goes for Deafheaven)
That's a lot of "as ifs" but that's basically what goes on in my mind when I read that shit.
There's that false equivalence between hipster black metal and actual black metal that needs to be corrected because it hurts the integrity of the tribal mindset I mentioned earlier.
It fucks with the Cult.
Not guy you were talking to, I agree with your sentiment but you are trivializing a bit. To some people the fretty twanger is all they have. Maybe not in hhh case but in general just because your values make it small doesn't mean that it is to everyone
Dude, my friend with a MA in philosophy said that same thing. Although, he'll disagree with you about comparing him to Varg (my friend doesn't not buy into cultural appropriation and the such).
I also have a MA in philosophy and I can confirm that his manifesto is 90% bullshit; but I still insist that it makes sense if you accept the bullshit premises he imposes upon you.
As for his heavy use of metaphors they apparently harken back to some XIXth century German theories of aesthetics that rely applying the concept of proprioception to a bit everything; which of course is somewhat inspired Nietzsche, Goethe and Wagner's views on art and life.
So you can sort of kind of see where he's coming from with his haptic void and hypetrophy but since he never explains it in sufficient technical detail with a clear theoretical background, it mostly sounds like asspulls.
>a genre as 1-dimensional as metal
well first of all, you're obviously a bit biased here because you're too pretentious to give the genre a chance.
secondly, why do you assume that everyone is limited to the same degree to which you appreciate music.
>I think very little of music other than it's a fun little bit of aural stimulation
if this is actually the way that you feel about it, i'd say that at least half of the posters here see music as something bigger, and more important than you do. some people are just more passionate about it. why try to stifle other peoples' passion just because you don't feel the same way?
The dude seems to worship German Romanticism so I can believe about the source of the metaphors.
>i just think it's dumb that metalheads always shit on them simply because they don't sound like the traditional stuff.
it literally has nothing to do with aesthetica not being "traditional" though
most metal fans here love Ved Buens Ende and Gorguts, and they were both genre breaking for their time
It's just that Liturgy pretends to be "the new black metal" when metal fans have heard so much more interesting things coming from bands that don't pretend to be genre-breaking.
Simple as that.
I actually enjoy Aethetica, but i have to admit it is not genre-breaking as it pretends to be
>wow that's weird, I normally don't like black metal, but I like Liturgy
>There's that false equivalence between hipster black metal and actual black metal that needs to be corrected because it hurts the integrity of the tribal mindset I mentioned earlier.
fair enough. i can see why that would be annoying. but i would say that's more a fault with the fanbase than with the actual music.
yes of course, but the main reason why we argue so much about Liturgy and make all these efforts to dissociate ourselves from it is so that people don't go thinking it's bona fide black metal.
>the main reason why we argue so much about Liturgy
oh, well that just hasn't been my experience. i have no problem admitting they're far from traditional black metal, but people still call them shit, and say they make shit music, all the time.
He really does, but the sad thing is that he doesn't seem to understand them.
If he's read Wagner's "The Art Work of the Future", and Nietzsche's "the Wagner case", which is extremely likely, then surely he can't innocently claim that his own music, which is incredibly contrived, erratic and whimsical, counts as a "total work of art" by either Wagner or Nietzsche's standards.
Cause here's the thing: a total work of art in Wagner's vocabulary isn't just a work of art that includes non-musical elements (such as philosophy, cultural, political, narrative elements) it's also a work of art that's entirely homogenous and self-sufficient. And judging from how much HHH has yet to explain in order to just make his music appreciable, he seemingly doesn't understand that.
And since he seems to adhere to the German vitalist conception of art, he should also realize that building your songs from several heterogenous sources, and then tweaking them for months on end, goes directly against it.
They make goofy music with utmost seriousness.
When talking about Kid Cudi, the resulting judgement of value is "it's shit".
I don't really see what allows HHH to be judged differently.
There could be something of the sort, but I have yet to have it explained to me.
as if anything Liturgy made is different enough from anything else in black metal that it would be need to be looked at on completely different terms
>They make goofy music
try listening to aesthethica. i understand why the ark work could be called goofy, but there's nothing goofy about aesthethica. just technicality, weird time signatures, and delicious riffs
>There's also something deeply disturbing about the grandson of an oil billionaire appropriating rap music and singing in a Jamaican accent. Plus the whole use of the mental illness aesthetic, love of German romanticism, veneration of Wagner, Nietzsche, other white dudes etc. There really isn't that much different between HHH and Varg Vikernes at the end of the day.
Lol, slit your wrists fag
well yeah
they do everything differently from almost every BM band (with a few exceptions)
I went into Aesthethica knowing NOTHING about HHH's autism and I immediately thought "this doesn't feel like black metal".
it's got tremolos, screams and blast beats, but they use them to create a feeling that's vastly different from what you can find in 99.99% of black metal
hahahaha I figured the guy was a pseudo-intellectual. How do you suppose HHH would actually approach to create a Gesamtkunstwerk if he understood what Wagner was actually meant. I know that to Wagner's eyes, the closest thing to a total work of art is the tragedies of Aeschylus so would it all be in Greek?
>there's nothing goofy about aesthethica
>HEYYY
also those riffs aren't delicious, they're (occasionally) exhilarating, sometimes annoying, and weird time signatures have almost never been enjoyable to listen to.
Apparently it's really fun to play but I'm not a proggy so I don't go into an album thinking "what would it feel like to play what I'm hearing".
I think it would be drastically different from anything he's made since Aesthethica.
It would probably be a very long uninterrupted musical piece with smoother transitions between riffs.
>HEYYY
okay but the heys only make up a tiny fraction of the music presented on that album
>also those riffs aren't delicious, they're (occasionally) exhilarating, sometimes annoying, and weird time signatures have almost never been enjoyable to listen to.
well this is just a matter of opinion so i can't argue with you much here, but saying that you dislike it because of these aspects of the music is much nicer than hearing you don't like it because of some cultural stigma attached to it.
So, the Ark Work if it was good?
or would he become Kayo Dot and through compose the entire album-long track.
no because the ark work was ostentatiously made by combining heterogenous musical traditions.
He would have to find a way to make the use of all those weird elements seem entirely natural, self-evident and effortless. Basically to neutralize the weirdness so that nobody can even think that he's trying to show off.
Bruh
What the fuck is going on
okay so OLOLON is basically god but she's a girl
and Reign Array is like Moses but he's a skellington
and like, the Genesis Caul is a sacred mystery or a reveleation or someshit
Care to expand upon why you disagree?
None of these things actually mean anything. Like, okay he has created this mythopoeia. Great, you're just like William Blake. Now what?
cause fucking everyone wants to be thug
there's nothing wrong with that and HHH isn't exceptionally "disturbing" because he also wants to be thug
I don't see how that would be humanly possible knowing that he has many heterogenous influences. The closest thing I could think of a Gesamtkunstwerk would be if Kayo Dot wrote an hour long song in the style of Choirs of the Eye or Humbardo. I've always found their music to be rather natural and effortless. But even they have influences from extreme metal that seep in.
Also, to add to his point, Nietzsche wasn't an anti-semite and later condemned Wagner and his peers as "blonde beasts".
And, if you follow Hunter on Instagram, his girlfriend is a radical third-wave feminist.
This. Toby Driver seems so much more legit than HHH because of the lack of a need to tell people about how legit he is.
>condemned
I dunno man the genealogy of morals makes the blonde beasts seem pretty chill and makes the jews huge dicks and hypocrites.
Like, the blonde beasts are brutes but they aren't mean-spirited
Exactly. That's why I'm such a fan of Kayo Dot and maudlin of the Well, even though Kayo Dot is more qualified to encompass total works of art.
Nobody said anything about antisemitism. Ad hominem, I'm sure he isn't remotely racist or anything like that. That doesn't necessarily obviate the inherent colonialism inherent in his philosophy. He seems to want to liberate BM from its influences and yet repeats exactly those influences in his supposed liberation.
Whoops, double-wrote 'inherent', but you see what I mean
HEIL MEME HITLER
he never said he wanted to liberate BM from colonialism.
And fucking everyone has a colonial mindset, if we didn't we would never argue because we wouldn't feel the need to make people agree with us.
I hate when people like you use the world colonialism. The word has become an excuse to blame white people for the world's problems and ignore that various cultures have conquered each other, because colonialism is not inherently white. And Hunter does try to eschew from European tradition by incorporating Southern Hip Hop into the Ark Work and Kel Valhaal. I think it sounds cringey as fuck, but still.
No, you misunderstand me. A white man folding a traditionally black artform into a traditionally white artform is an instance of coloniality. HHH claims he is all about disrupting the purity of the hyperborean etc. but I'm arguing he is going about it in exactly the wrong way and in fact merely repeating the hyperboarean mindset - which as I hinted at before is typified by the likes of Varg
True, but there are special colonial relations at play when it comes to white (master) and black (slave)
you would be correct if he somehow made his raps feel like black metal (or at least like liturgical chanting) but he just sounds like any other wigger.
that also makes him much less interesting. i dont know what it is but i honestly don't care how right or how wrong hhh is about some of his ideas i just love them, hell i even prefer the clearly amateurish sound of his projects, it all seems so wrong yet so right, like it has to exist despite everyone else