Welcome to the weekly Sup Forums jazz Blindfold Test thread. Every Friday and Saturday. If you're new, the point of these threads is to have fun and encourage critical listening, discussion, and general enjoyment of jazz. All critical music listeners are welcome. The more participation we have, the more fun and successful these threads will be. In the interest of keeping the thread alive and bumped, any general jazz discussion is welcomed here as well.
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THIS WEEK'S THEME: Big Band COMPILED BY: JTG
NEXT WEEK: ??? COMPILED BY: ???
If you missed last week's thread, DON'T WORRY. It's not too late. Here are the links for the mystery tracklist. Download the tracks, record your thoughts/guesses/evaluations for each one, and then come back and post them in the thread. Remember, people will be posting guesses and thoughts in this thread so don't read the thread until you have listened to the music and collected your thoughts in order to avoid spoilers. Track info for this week's tracks will be posted on Saturday, so if you see the thread is close to dying before then, give it a bump.
1. Starting off with one I actually recognize. I know it’s from Miles Ahead and I think it’s the first track. It’s pretty nice the way that it swings nice and easy but then has those blasts of loud playing. There is also a lot of color from all the different combinations of instruments and that keeps the song interesting. I wish Miles had a longer solo. 3.5 stars.
2. I’m guessing this is the Dave Holland big band. I’ve never heard it but a modern big band with vibes makes me think of that and this trumpet player sounds like it could be Alex Sipiagin. This is more traditional than most of Holland’s music I’ve heard though since it swings most of the time. The drummer is great, it sounds like it might be the same drummer that plays in his quintet. I like the middle section with the afro-cuban sounding drumming. It sounds like the same trombone player from his quintet too but his solo wasn’t my favorite. Still this one was pretty enjoyable, how sometimes it sounded traditional but then very modern at times too. 4 stars.
3. I can’t tell where this one is going. It started out very cheesy sounding but then does some cooler things but then back to cheesy sometimes. This tenor sax player has a weird sound, it sounds like he’s purposely trying not to swing or something. This one had some interesting moments but I didn’t really think the solos were very good. 2.5 stars.
4. It almost reminds me of Sun Ra at first. It sounds like an evil march. I like it when music is dissonant but also very precise like this. If they would have kept playing that same rhythm much longer it would have gotten very old. And then it’s nice how the free section turns into a new rhythm that the whole band plays. The duet section was my favorite part. Then they go back to the march rhythm. I’m curious to see what band this is. 4 stars.
Colton Thompson
5. Now back to something a lot more traditional and it sounds very tame after the last track. It reminds me of Lee Konitz for some reason. Nothing really grabs my attention about this one. It sounds like a cool bebop tune and probably a good arrangement but the solos fell short. 3 stars.
6. This reminds me of some of the Dizzy Gillespie big band stuff I’ve heard. But also more experimental or something. The band trading with the drums near the end was pretty cool. 3.5 stars.
7. Very modern sounding. I like the rock influence from the drums. I think it works on this style of big band playing. The tenor player is pretty amazing and it sounds like Chris Potter. He started to lose me with his solo but then there was a great part somewhere around 4:30 where he kept coming back to the same melody in cool ways. My only complaint with this one is that it might have been too long. 3.5 stars.
8. This one sounds cheesy in the same way that track 3 did sometimes. The bassline and funkiness of it sounds pretty dated now. This got better as it went though. 3 stars.
9. Nice buildup at the beginning. This reminds me a lot of track 7 but I think I like it a little better. I think I heard some bass clarinet in there which is always a winner in my book. I don’t think I’ve heard it in big band before. This one never really gets boring because it keeps introducing new ideas. I like it a lot. 4 stars.
10. I don’t really have much interesting to say about this one. It was kind of weird how they sped up. The drum solo was kind of over the top. I’ll guess that this is Buddy Rich because of how much the drums are featured. 3 stars.
Adrian Rivera
bump
Luis Adams
>1. I know it’s from Miles Ahead and I think it’s the first track. Nice
>2. I’m guessing this is the Dave Holland big band. Another nice guess.
>4. It almost reminds me of Sun Ra at first. I'm always surprised that nobody on Sup Forums seems to know about this band... given how popular things like Fire Orchestra and Sun Ra are.
>5. It reminds me of Lee Konitz for some reason. Actually there's a pretty good reason for that even though he's not on this track.
>7. The tenor player is pretty amazing and it sounds like Chris Potter. Another nice catch
>9. This one never really gets boring because it keeps introducing new ideas. Yes, the arrangement is pretty great on this one.
Liam Hall
On my way home from the Pub.
Did a quick round of cursory listening, but will still listen through while commenting. Maybe starting comments in about 45mins.
Big bands are certainly one of my weakest areas, but there where some I think I recognize.
Xavier Gonzalez
Gonna just post what I've gotten around to listening to and then intermittently put stuff up over the thread. I've mostly liked what I've heard so far though.
>Track one This is The Duke from Miles Ahead! I’m one of those freaks who thinks that Miles’ best work was made with Gil and around that time. Every corner of the arrangement is just bursting with melody, I don’t know any other composer composes for tuba as well as Gil. I just love it plodding away and giving answering phrases there in the back. Then of course there’s Miles, who played more lyrically in that period than any other time in his career. Miles Ahead, Sketches and Porgy and Bess show that but you can see it in the smaller group work from that time like Milestones and Kind of Blue. Those small groups are some of the most exceptional music ever made but I think Miles never got a better musical backdrop than the Evans arrangements. They leave the perfect amount of breathing space for him to augment the melodies and fill in the gaps between stuff with his own ideas. I love this track, I can sort of imagine them painting a picture of this sort of haughty, regal type strutting around the place. The band and Davis swoop around the dynamics for the first half and then when it gets to Davis’s big solo space, he’s given loads of room to manoeuvre around and he plays so sweet for it. He's mostly got free reign here but he weaves through the more sparse horn lines as they come. I’m always just astounded at the creative stamina he had in those days. When Evans wrote for him, he always had so much improvising to do and usually over some pretty odd arrangements but he was usually able to pull off being just as melodically inventive and emotive as he is here.
Henry Fisher
>track two Maybe Buddy Rich? The band sounds practiced enough and the drums are i̶n̶t̶r̶u̶s̶i̶v̶e̶ s̶h̶o̶w̶e̶y̶ active enough. I think I recognise some of his band by tone like the sax and trumpet too but I don’t recall hearing vibes on any Rich recordings I have. >About 2:20 onwards I’d be surprised if it wasn’t Rich at this point. The coming work he was doing under the solo was cray but Jesus Christ: that fill was insane. I always wonder how people like Buddy Rich didn’t bully all the personality out of his musicians. When they’re soloing, these guys have a lot of individual style whereas you look at someone like Frank Zappa who was similarly demanding that his musicians fit his vision but they often lost a lot of that passion and connection to the music that Rich’s big bands seem maintain. >track three My first instinct for a baritone lead big band would obviously be Gerry Mulligan. If this is him, it’s later in his career than I’ve listened to but with my absence of knowledge about what he was up to in later years, this seems a fair projection for where he’d go. If this is Gerry, his tone is a lot less breathy and gentle than I’d be used to hearing from him but I still like this. It’s a really fun track. There’s a lot of bounce to it and there were some pretty big compositional turns throughout it. The band is damn tight, at a few points, there's a bunch of different melodies moving around this but it doesn't sound to me like the performance is getting muddled due to the complexity at all.
Robert Russell
>track four >That ostinato tho V. unhinged. It got very annoying very fast though. I don’t mind a bit of repetition but it’s like they’ve taken a very short quote from a Stravinsky piece and out of context/repeated so much it just sounds stupid. The trumpet player was the only thing I really liked about this opening bit. I wasn't really sure what was going on with the drum solo …it was such a weird direction change. The tuba/trombone duet was fire though. It was pretty amusing to hear those big deep instruments moving along so quickly and fluidly. Initially I thought the sax coming in, playing off the tuba was awesome, but then they started back up the ostinato and dropped the brass. It’s like an ugly bird call and, of course, we had to have some overblown shrieking to go with that. I think I’m being harsher on this track than it deserves…that one musical idea just got under my skin though and they were using it SO MUCH.
>track five This could be Dizzy. I love this style of big band writing. There are supporting melodies going on in the back that are a little simpler but the main line is basically a bop solo but unlike an improvised solo, you can get instruments doubling up on this. I wasn't as crazy about the piano solo. None of the melodic ideas really struck me and it kinda just came across like his was filling his space until he could get back to comping, which he seemed a little more interested in. At least, I thought he was playing better in the sax solo than his own. The two sax solos were pretty good but it was... whatever that was that was going on afterwards that really what caught my ear. It was like they were trying to play a dixieland chorus. Except that they're playing bebop, so it kinda just sounded like a bit of an amorphous blob. It was a good idea in theory though! I was hoping for a trumpet solo. It'd have been a better litmus for telling whether this actually is Dizzy than hearing him play with the arrangement.
Benjamin Taylor
1: So yeah, I first identified the composition as Brubeck's The Duke - then a little bit later realized that this is from Miles Ahead, a Gil Evans arrangement.
Very stylish, as Evans arrangements tend to be. Miles takes a brief solo where he seems to be playing out for the hell of it a bit - not sure if I really like it. The end result is a short but sweet take on this with the solo leaving up some questions that depending on the listener might be good or bad. I've heard The Duke in enough versions that it's always kind of nice to hear it, this one is certainly good, but I think on some 'greatness' scale I like a less on many others would.
2: Sounds like this is something a lot more modern - this century I'd guess?
A lot of big bands have fallen into a trap where they often sound old fashioned regardless of source material, but I think these guys avoid that fairly well.
The vibraphone is a somewhat unusual touch. Is this the Dave Holland Big Band? Feels like a thing that jtg would put on a list like this that could be like this. That one had a vibraphone player, but haven't listened to those albums much.
The longer this goes on, the less I understand what the point is. The solos get stuck much more in the "well, this is some music in the big band jazz tradition"-rut for me. Maybe this is less recent than I thought?
Based on the ending, I'd be more inclined to think this is pretty recent stuff.
Kayden Perez
1. Miles Ahead (Miles Davis +19) "The Duke". One of my favorite albums, and what can I say, Gil Evans has incredible arranging (definitely my favorite large group arranger). I almost wish some bands intentionally only did mono track recordings or at least single mic; it brings an amazing organic. all day.
2. Loud and fast and those stacked and extended chords make it’s modern feel great. The vibes were one of the first things I noticed. This group is hardly together...it’s almost like a shittier Buddy Rich Big Band. Very atmospheric piece. I appreciate that it goes between modal and standard style chord changes. .
3. Is it bad that whenever I hear a bari, I think of BoJack Horseman? The level of precision in this is neat. The 10 of latin -> 10 swing is a sick concept. The latin reminds me of Stan Kenton’s Big Band for whatever reason. I like the choice of instruments throughout. Nothing worse than big bands that never double or play contemporary pieces. Talk about boring. The tenor player is great but the excessive vibrato is a pet peeve of mine, but that’s completely subjective. It’s interesting that a lot of this is tutti, not even using octaves, which just means the tuning of these musicians is amazing as well as the fact that it’s an interesting compositional choice. Love that little classical chamber bit at the end. The composer of that is definitely on the vanguard of trying things, and I love it...some amazing ideas in there. .
4. Holy fuck, this is some powerful shit. Did Prokofiev and Stravinsky do a jazz collab? This is some cool. There’s something inherently beautiful about destroying standard harmony that comes out almost even more beautiful; it expresses so much emotion too. I DON’T KNOW WHY BUT I LOVE THIS. It’s like orchestrated free jazz. Reminds me a lot of Ornette Coleman's orchestra stuff. I’m struggling to think of the chord this is based off of. .
Eli Stewart
5. Old. Is that Lee Konitz on sax in the sax section? I’m hearing a lack of chord structure… The first sax solo implied the changes more than the piano did… piano player seems fine everywhere else though. Warne Marsh on tenor? I like the interesting chord changes in the soli. 5th is a different direction, but a new one. Even something so different has to use a 7#11 to end….
6. A lot of these are very interesting songs. Nice fat and loud chords in the B and that syncopated travel rhythm in the A is so fascinating. uh-1 uh-3 juxtaposed to 1-e 3-e? This band is crazy loud. What else to say. Has a cool sound to it. .
7. Sexy chords, 2 tenors… one is Crisp Otter, but idk the other. I’ll just say it reminds me of the album This Place and the chords remind me of Traveling Mercies. Amazing group though. Great groove. Great time. Great tuning. Great precision. Great dynamics. THIS is how a big band should sound. It’s a shot in the dark, but maybe a really contemporary Bob Mintzer tune? The trumpet player has Christian Scott’s sound, but I know it ain’t him. .
8. Funky I guess. idfk. The whole call response thing is just overdone and the lines written for the saxes just sound like someone just wrote out some random ascending/descending notes.
Luke Nguyen
>track 6 Another big band track, probably made by bop musicians…would it be unoriginal if I also guessed this was Dizzy Gillespie? That trumpet player, the big crescendos and the quirky melodies sound way more like him. I love the sax lines. That ostinato under the rising alto line was just spectacular. I’m a sucker for build-ups like that and I’m almost certain this is Diz now. If it’s not, this guy is a good imitator. The thing I love the most about his big bands is that you get those big crescendos but then right when it feels like they’ve peaked, you can still hear his sharp tone flying over it and bringing everything up another notch. I should be back around later or tomorrow to post the rest. This is a great theme though with some great selections.
Brandon Anderson
3: So the Windows Media Player's vigilance in recognizing shit ruined this one for me (I don't pitch shift my lists for nothing), but as it happens I had been listening to things Lew Tabackin has been involved in for my own nefarious potentially upcoming blindfold-purposes, so I had actually listened to some stuff by this band recently (not to ruin this one any more than that for others...).
I like the playfulness of different wind instruments in this. I'm a fan of big band compositions and arrangements that feature a wide array of horns and reeds. As far as the art of jazz is concerned, we're giving away a lot of the artistic expression of the individual musicians, so the composer & arrangers should be picking up on the slack.
Cute ending - not sure if I like it, though.
This was OK, but I don't really feel like delving to this bands discography more.
4: Cool free jazzy mood.
This is almost Zappa-like in some parts.
I think the dutch ICP Orchestra - founded by Misha Mengelberg, Han Bennink and Willem Breuker - does some stuff like this. Some other European larger ensembles like Paal Nilssen-Love's Large Unit and Mikko Innanen's 10+ that this could well be come to mind. There is definitely a scene in Europe for this kind of music these days.
I like seeing groups like this live - usually works much better than recordings. I'd go see these guys.
Is that a fairly prominent tuba - I'll hail mary that it's Per-Åke Holmlander. He's the kind of guy who is always involved in stuff like this.
Dylan Gutierrez
5: A more classic feel, but there's some fire here. This band has caught the bebop-bug a little bit.
Has that dangerous film noir -style feel - very uptempo for the style. I like it. Dark rainy night, big city, intrigue. Follow that cab! A west-coast thing?
I don't care for that dual-horn part. Sounds like white west-coast guys trying too hard.
Pretty cool track - I can see myself being in a mood where I'd listen to more of this. Very "car chase".
6: Man, is the volume and sound quality on this one really bad or is it just me?
This is like a really uninteresting version of the previous track.
For some reason this feels like it could be some interlude from West Side Story. Look out, it's the Jets!
Still a bad version of track 5 for me. I guess it's a musical or soundtrack thing.
Juan Hughes
>Track one Glad people are recognizing this one
>track 2 >I’d be surprised if it wasn’t Rich at this point. Much more recent than anything Rich ever recorded
>track four I agree that this one gets repetitive, especially in the beginning, I think the bulk of the track is pretty great though.
Austin Parker
7: Well, this is very contemporary sounding. Also sounds very familiar for some reason. Not sure why, I don't listen to a lot of contemporary big band apart from geographically close bands that I don't think this reminds me of.
Hey, I think it is from that Chris Potter big band album - I was listening to it some months ago before seeing Potter's groups live as it is the most recent Chris Potter album on Spotify.
This is much more interesting to me than track 2 as far as modern sounding big band music rooted in tradition goes, but in all honesty I didn't really care for the Potter big band album that much - if this is from that at all.
8: This one I have a positive identification of. This is from Thad Jones & Mel Lewis's album Consummation.
I recall recommending this album anonymously to someone looking for big band music this year and having jtg back me up.
This is a great album and I like funkier Jones/Lewis stuff in general. Central Park North is a personal favorite along with this one.
It might be impossible to have a serious big band conversation in Finland where Thad Jones and Mel Lewis aren't mentioned - very important characters that big band involved people really look up to over here. They recorded an album, too, with UMO, the first professional big band over here.
If I gave stars, I would give this one many just because.
Chase Thompson
>2. This group is hardly together...it’s almost like a shittier Buddy Rich Big Band You mean the band sounds sloppy?
>3. The latin reminds me of Stan Kenton’s Big Band for whatever reason Yeah I would say this band definitely takes some influence from Kenton.
>4. I DON’T KNOW WHY BUT I LOVE THIS I figured people might like this track. This band is underrated.
>5. Not Konitz but it is Marsh on tenor. I'm surprised you recognize his playing but not the tune or the changes.
>7. Nice catch on Chris Potter.
Logan Long
9: Tricky
Has to be pretty recent. I like the first sax (alto?) that comes in.
After that this thing has not gone for two minutes and it just feels like these people are just trying too much.
I'd listen to the second sax guy (tenor!) small ensemble stuff, but by now I'm just annoyed by this track in general. When you play too many notes and try to do many things and have a big band backing you up, it's just too much.
The tenor sax guy made me think of some of David Binney's music even though he is an alto guy. Maybe it's just the contemporary feel of it.
Is it Conrad Herwig on trombone? I don't know his playing that well but he is a character who would be playing trombone in a try-hard contemporary thing like this.
I just don't get it. It's been a while since I've openly really disliked contemporary American post-bop but this is really the kind that rubs me all wrong. These people obviously know how to play - why they choose to do something like this is beyond me.
If I gave stars, I might give this one a half-moon for wasted potential.
10: Another older track - I was expecting a lot more of this kind of Duke Ellington/Count Basie/Benny Goodman style music from this list.
Now, the real focus here has to be on the drums. The drumming is so outrageous that it would be bad form to not guess that it's Buddy Rich - but I got to thinking that jtg is the kind of guy to leave Rich out of his big band list because let's face it, he's been overrated and also a jerk and a blowhard, so with all the repetitive but fast bass drum stuff in the end I'm going to also guess Louie Bellson as the drummer as I believe he was the one to bring this kind of double-bass nonsense to jazz causing Buddy to try to humiliate him later with technically more impressive stuff.
That said, massive drum solos like this continue to draw big applause from crowds even today - they certainly work in live settings really well, but very rarely do they sound appealing on recordings.
Christopher Brown
>I've heard The Duke in enough versions that it's always kind of nice to hear it, this one is certainly good, but I think on some 'greatness' scale I like a less on many others would. What's your favorite version?
>2. Feels like a thing that jtg would put on a list like this that could be like this. I think I need to get less predictable. Steve Nelson's solos with Holland can be hit or miss for me but I think the trumpet solo here is great. Same with the trombone solo- seems odd to call the trombone solo "in the big band tradition."
>3. but as it happens I had been listening to things Lew Tabackin has been involved in Think you would have recognized his playing anyway? He's not really that well known anymore but I've always thought he has a very distinctive sound.
>4. There is definitely a scene in Europe for this kind of music these days. The band is pretty international, though based in America. This was recorded in Europe though.
>7. but in all honesty I didn't really care for the Potter big band album that much Why's that?
>8. It might be impossible to have a serious big band conversation in Finland where Thad Jones and Mel Lewis aren't mentioned - very important characters that big band involved people really look up to over here. They recorded an album, too, with UMO, the first professional big band over here. I didn't know that. I'm glad somebody knew this one. Thad Jones was a master writer/arranger.
Thomas Russell
>9 When you play too many notes and try to do many things and have a big band backing you up, it's just too much. I have to strongly disagree on this one- The tenor solo's phrasing could be a lot better but I think the arrangement is fantastic.
>10 in the end I'm going to also guess Louie Bellson as the drummer Nice catch. I figured most people would just assume it's Buddy Rich.
Owen Gray
1: I'm particular to the Brubeck Plays Brubeck solo piano version of The Duke. The version that really caused me to dig up more versions was by local sax player Jukka Perko's version from his recent Streamline Jazztet album.
Perko is a sax player who got famous in the mid 80's for being a self-taught Charlie Parker nerd with an almost encyclopedic knowledge of Parker's solos who ended up playing in Dizzy Gillespie's 70th anniversary big band when he was 19, but the Streamline Jazztet album is his first recording playing standards. He currently has a contract with ACT and will likely make an appearance in a future /blindfold/ from me...
3: Not sure about recognizing Tabackin - chances are no, even though I was listening to his music lately, I don't think I have an intuitive feel for recognizing him yet.
7: I don't know, can't give a reason - I tried to like it to get hyped for the gig listening to his stuff from Spotify on my commute, but it just didn't stick. I guess it stuck somewhat if I recognized this track, though.
it's a reasonably well known album among local record collectors, but probably not something in high demand outside the country and certainly seems to have been a relationship that taught many local musicians a lot about high level big band music and arrangements
Daniel Butler
10: heh, Rich did seem like too obvious for that :)
I like some Buddy Rich stuff, though - The Beat Goes On with his young daughter on vocals is great: youtube.com/watch?v=Zblr8g3P7tw
Dominic Brown
4: is Ken Vandermark somehow involved?¨
His sensibilities are very similar to the modern day European avant-scene (and he does work with a lot of Europeans).
Ethan Brown
>Perko is a sax player who got famous in the mid 80's for being a self-taught Charlie Parker nerd with an almost encyclopedic knowledge of Parker's solos I've heard the name but not any of his music. I will keep an ear out in upcoming weeks for someone who sounds like a Bird Nerd.
>Not sure about recognizing Tabackin - chances are no, even though I was listening to his music lately, I don't think I have an intuitive feel for recognizing him yet. I saw Tabackin play live with a local big band back in 2009 when I had only been into jazz a couple years (and had no idea who he was) so that made kind of an impression on me. His mannerisms while playing are also very distinctive and I can almost picture him on stage when I hear his playing.
Nope
Jace Edwards
>4: Nope
Looking forward to the reveal then - cool stuff, fires many positive synapses.
Carter Bennett
Bump. What have you been listening to this week ?
Brody Ramirez
well, I was listening to this
Luis Perry
and the conclusion was that you should really stick to listening to this instead and late 70's is a scary time
Also who's got a playlist ready for next week? user in the thread last week said he had one but hasn't sent it to me or anything...
Benjamin Evans
It's always kind of hard to answer this because most of the cool stuff I discover I usually want to put it on a future blindfold playlist.
I listened to this for the first time this week. The combination of Byard and Farrell is pretty great. The more I listen to Byard the more it sinks in how versatile he was. I think you could put him in just about any group and he'd not only fit in, but really raise the level of the whole group.
Oliver Phillips
Bump
Kayden Turner
bump
Owen Anderson
bumpy
Nathaniel Brown
hourly bump
Hudson Brooks
Track 4, Track 6, and Track 9 were all pretty good. The rest kind of sucked. I don't really like big bands though so I was kind of expecting to dislike all of them.
Easton Cooper
Will write a full review in the morning but Jesus Christ, track seven is something else.
Aaron Butler
in a good way?
Luke Bell
bump
Adrian Rogers
bump
Grayson Long
I never comment on these since I don't know that much about jazz (trying to get educated though cause I really enjoy it and my gf thinks I'm a total pleb) but I wait for these threads eagerly all week. So thanks to all of you that keep these threads going. And please someone come up with a new comp!
>Dave Holland This is the name I was looking forward to get this week. I'm a drummer and this blew my mind away. Downloading everything I could find on slsk and anticipating a good friday night at home.
Carter White
Start with this one
Leo Miller
Fucked up the greentexting, I meant Louie Bellson. I'll grab that one because I don't know him and ECM is always nice. Thanks!
