"Usually the best ideas flow from the hand or mind without any particular effort, these are the ideas that will endure in your compositions." - Johannes Brahms
previous thread: try again edition
An experiment in a pen-and-paper composing general, made for all the theory autists
Post clyps and accompanying notation so we can accurately critique your composing from a theory perspective
The first twenty or so seconds seems to have little to do with the rest of it.
For the most part it sort of fell into the trap of needing to have some sort of ostinato, looping harmonic progression, or other such repeating figures at all times. It seemed that after the twenty second mark, every new idea was repeated either once or three times with not much development. This wouldn't be much of a problem if it felt like you wanted to write a pop type piece, but the first twenty seconds set the stage for something classical-ish, so it didn't gel.
That's all the negative things I have to say, but on the whole I actually quite liked it, especially for your first attempt, jeez. You're a lot more adventurous with your melodies and dissonances than most here, and I really want to encourage that.
Luis Powell
COMP CHALLENGE #6: RIDING SOLO (latent harmony) Aug 20th to 27th roughly
Compose a short piece for a single monophonic instrument. Instruments with limited polyphonic capabilities such as the strings can be used if those techniques (double stops, etc) are avoided. The piece should make use of latent harmony, the harmony implied by a single line ala Bach's Cello Suite prelude. This should be the primary driving force of the piece, it should not sound entirely like an unaccompanied melody.
Nathaniel Lee
what is op image, memialism?
Jackson Kelly
nah, psalm tones for singing psalms in Gregorian Modes.
Thomas Fisher
Thanks for the compliments! That means something to me, to be honest.
I felt the exact same thing you pointed out when writing it, but I just have no idea how to expand melodies beyond individual pairs of bars and repeating them back and forth - I'm terrible at it. Are there any resources you can recommend on expanding beyond that sort of pop sensibility and expanding into melodies that develop more organically?
Connor Russell
aoh like in Enigma, neat
Jordan Jenkins
Do you guys think Carly Rae Jepsen is a good composer?
Jeremiah Robinson
my take on this, weren't there more people working on this?
That's pretty much what the Schoenberg in the pasta aims to teach. It's a great read
Luke Jones
I was too busy avoiding my cello like the plague on my last few days of vacation for some reason
Adam Sullivan
I'll start reading it right now then! Thanks a bunch!
Levi Turner
Also, the book assumes you have prior knowledge of harmony and harmonic function. If you don't you might read up on that (but that's much easier to find resources on than this sort of thing, so)
Nolan Russell
gn8!
have a funny movable Do solfege song from china.
Brody Reed
Had a lot of fun trying to interpret this.
So what precisely does 0 mean? I assumed it meant the leading tone below 1, but that was obviously incorrect at the end (I mean, it could end on the leading tone, I dunno, but I assume it doesn't).
The way it extends the dominant right before the first and second endings is pretty cool. Some of the harmonies with the sharp four in general are pretty cool.
Oh, I see. Ha, I've developed a fairly similar system to doodle music when I can't be bothered to get sheet music. I use Xs instead.
So I guess the whole/half-rest-looking things are extensions of the previous note?
Ian Butler
yeah, simple numbers are quarter notes, every extender adds another quarter to the duration. Underlines are like beams on quavers. Dots below and above are ottava.
I think more chinese folks can read this numbered stuff compared to western sheet music. I'll incorporate this into the stream on ear training, at least a little.
Isaac Ward
I need someone to explain what the difference is between a scale and a mode.
Say I'm soloing against a C chord, can be anything.. Cmaj7,Cmaj9.. and I'm playing a G major arpeggio, avoiding the F note, am i consider to be playing in the fifth mode of the C major scale?
Chase Brooks
there's at least 4 different definitions of modes, two archaic ones (proto-modes and Gregorian modes, see sticky and gregorian stream), then the diatonic modes derived from gregorian modes, and the jazz modes, derived from diatonic modes (see jazz stream). The modes are made of scales, but not every scale is a mode (think pentatonics, augmented and diminuished scales etc.)
In jazz, as far as I understood, you can solo over modal scales that correspond to the current chord.
Say you're in C major, and have a G9 chord (G as the bass note), then you'd play notes from the G mixolydian scale, as a scale based on G using the accidentals of C maj is a mixol. scale. Easiest way to find out is to extend the chord to 13 and stick to diatonic notes, in the case of a G13 chord in C maj it would be >G B D F A C E rearranging them in order: >G A B C D E F -> G mixo
Same goes for chords with alterations, like if you got a Dmb9 chord in C maj, you go > D F A C Eb G B rearragne > D Eb F G A B C -> D phryg 6 (dunno if the natural sign works here)
Evan Bennett
The definition of mode I'm using is the one derived from the major scale, whereby the first mode is Ionian, the sixth is the aeolian, etc..
The one you are describing is the same definition im using right? Also for my first example, would it be correct to say I'm playing in the fifth mode of the C Maj scale?
Ayden Reyes
well, you're referring to diatonic modes, but assuming you're not gonna exclusively use major keys for your improv or pieces, you should rather be using the jazz modes.
And the correct way to spell your example is "playing G mixlydian mode". Numbering modes is a thing with Gregorian modes (where you only have 4 modes), but not diatonic modes.
Jace Watson
What is the difference between the diatonic modes and the jazz modes?
Tyler Adams
diatonic modes use just the notes of the major scale.
Jazz modes include alterations and minor scales.
Look up chord-scale-system, and watch the 1st jazz stream in the OP channel, and have a look at the berklee jazz book.
Alexander Foster
Alright I'm briefly looking through this at the moment.
Also, another thing about avoid notes, how do you determine them from a theory perspective? So far I have always determined them by the fact that they sound "wrong", and potentially clash with the chord function. For example, fourth on the Ionian and 6th on the Aeolian.
I'm slightly aware of the chord scale system, but essentially it's pretty much about building scales to fit chords right? Are there no limits to what I can built? What example on a min7 chord, I could go with either the aeolian mode or the melodic minor scale.
Avoid notes are notes within those chord scales, that are especially dissonant (minor 9th for example) OR make the chord too ambiguous. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoid_note has a list.
Thomas Jackson
>jazz scale is a whole different thing eek, mixed up jazz scale and blues scale. I'm not good at this modern music stuff...
Nicholas Hill
>Are there no limits to what I can built? What example on a min7 chord
Kinda depends, but yeah, you can use whatever scale contains the four notes of an a min7 chord. You can always fall back on extending the diatonic 9/11/13.
a min7 chord in the key of F major: A C E G Bb D F > A Bb C D E F G > A phrygian
a min 7 in the key of C major: A C E G B D F > A aeolian
and once you got the actual chord scale down, you could consider altering the extensions or do subsitutions and whatnot.
Jordan Richardson
There are some differing opinions on avoid notes (some might say the 6th in dorain is an avoid note other might not), but generally they're a half step from a chord tone and create a minor 9th interval when put above the chord.
The forth in major is easy to understand because the 4th has a lot of pull and wants to resolve to 3 generally so it's best avoided. Also don't be afraid to trust your ears. If it sounds like an avoid note it probably is. We don't call them avoid notes because they sound rested and in place. There's an aural reason for it.
>it's pretty much about building scales to fit chords right?
Chord scale theory is kinda weird and can be looked at a few ways. One is taking the staked 3rds of 7 note chord and laying it out in terms of whole steps and half steps. This is taking a C13 chord and getting a C major scale from it.
The other is to use a scale on top of a chord to either bring out it's harmonic function or to be able to solo over it with no avoid notes. Using Phrygian over a iii chord or Lydian over a IV chord would be an example of this. Some players though like to use certain scales over certain chords because they have no avoid notes. Dorian on a minor chord has none and neither does Lydian b7 on a dominant chord. Those scales might not reflect the chord function, but they are useful for improvising.
The other option is to give a certain sound over a chord. A Lydian scale over a major chord can give a brighter sound and an altered scale over a V7 chord can give it a really out sound.
Chase Lewis
Also it's worth noting that if you dive far enough into chord scale stuff you'll eventually starting looking at if scales come from chords or vice versa. It's pretty interesting and depending on what aspect of music you focus on it can change.
Chord scale theory can make it seem like chords are what scales come from, but diatonic harmony might make you think that harmony comes from scales. There's also plenty of stuff that blurs the line with this stuff.
Was in a math mood and wanted to work on something purer and less extramusical than serialism. So I derived the just intonation scale.
How wrong am I? I derived F# and G# by applying the major third (times 5/4) to D and E. Is that how they were historically derived? Also, how should I approach deriving the chromatic scale?
Carson Flores
major 6th = root + maj3 - p5 + p8 = r * 5/4 * 2/3 * 2 major 7th = root + maj3 + p5
Chromatic scale depends on which note you alter, like A# = r + m3 + 3* p5 - 2* p8 (large augmented unison) or: A# = r + 2* m3 - p5 (small augmented unison) Bb = r - m3 - p5 + p8
Seems like a cool challenge idea. Everyone gets to append 3 to 8 bars to an existing piece! But that's gonna be hard to coordinate. (2:01 Rachmaninoff: let's modulate! Glazunov: no we stay)
Another one could be to write a simple piece using some less common notation (mensural or Chinese numbers) and we have to play and record each other's pieces.
Oliver Green
I like the first idea. Make a shared google doc or something that people can edit, and designate a set amount of bars to each person, everyone goes off and composes their bars and then puts them in a drive where they are collated into the finished piece.
Carson Thompson
Nah, in a soloing/jazz setting, your mode is based around the chords. So if the chord is C something, your mode will be C something. If you're using the G major triad, you're just playing the 5th, 7th and 2nd scale degree of the mode you're in, which is either C ionian or C lydian most likely (you're avoiding the 4th scale degree, hence the ambiguity).
If you were in the key of C and you were soloing over a Dmin7 then the mode you would (most likely) be playing in is D dorian. If there was a G7 chord, you would be playing with the 5th mode of the C major scale, G mixolydian. It gets interesting with non diatonic chords, if you're in C major and an Ebmaj7 shows up, you're probably going to use Eb lydian, and the modal source (the mode rooted on the tonic that produces Eb lydian) would be C dorian
Zachary Green
you couldn't put a melodic minor scale of a min7 chord because the min7 chord has the b7 and melodic minor has the natural 7. You could do Dorian, Phryigian, Aeolian, other weird stuff potentially, but usually one will make the most sense in a diatonic context (which is usually what you're going for) and the others are optional alterations for effect.
Henry Butler
Eh I mentioned the wrong scale, I'm talking about the scale, similar to the melodic minor except with a flat 7
Samuel Rodriguez
Dorian
Oliver Bell
thank god, it's alive in the morning bump
Hunter Edwards
I said
Mason Martinez
Bb
Jayden Nguyen
>a locally famous composer is writing a cello sonata for me to play with him /comp/, have any advice for me? I've worked with composers before, I'm in the composition class and we'reexpected to perform each others' music. But none of them have worked with professional musicians, so
Joseph Powell
>Carly Rae Jepsen >composer
Daniel Gray
be professional, but also be likable. Try to create a good relationship.
Luis Torres
i started playing piano around a year ago, and recently started becoming interested in composing. im gonna have a lot of freetime this year, because im getting paid to go a school where i just have to play in a band from like 9 -15 each day. i already have one piano/composition lesson per week, but I need to figure out how i can teach myself, because honestly im a lazy fuck and i get discouraged so easily do you just force yourself to practice theory multiple hours a day or what? it would be really nice if some composers could share their routine
Aaron Moore
The difference is kinda nuanced. I like to just think of the modes as different scales, like major and minor scales. Except they don't have tonal harmony characteristics of major and minor.
Well a G major arpeggio is G B D and F# if you go up to the 7. You're not playing the 5th mode which would be Mixolydian/the dominant scale. For two reasons, one an arpeggio is not a mode, a mode is a scale and usually a 7 note one.
Two a G chord in the key of C major is a G7 chord which has a b7, so it would have an F not an F#. F# and F are very different.
Also the term avoid note is a bit misleading they're not actually to be avoided. Mark Levin is his books calls them handle with care notes when explaining the term avoid note. Which is what the notes really are.
Elijah Harris
Be professional and don't be a dick obviously. Ask questions about the piece if something looks weird. If something is unplayable say so.
Isaac Martin
I'm not a serious composer, but here's the advice I have. If your "job" is music, make sure you're not getting burnt out adding composing onto it. Composing is art, and in every art 90% of what you make be shit, at least to you. It can be really fun but it can also be a drag sometimes. Don't make music into a chore if it's something you're going to have to do everyday anyway.
Theory wise, read a lot of stuff. There's teoria and all those websites in the sticky, all sorts of stuff. Ask your teacher specific questions about theory and try to apply them throughout the week. I come from a jazz background, and in my lessons I remember getting a lot of mileage out of talking about which specific scale degrees to use in chords; when is a flat 5th appropriate, what tones add strength to cadences and which add ambiguity, etc.
Then when it comes to composing just make stuff you like. The role of theory is to help you when you're made something, but you don't think it sounds right and you want to fix it. Theory will help you patch those holes and give you ideas for what possibilities you have when you don't know where to go with a piece.
Zachary Hill
Yeah, getting a daily routine is best. I practice piano for at least an hour a day, i usually try to get 2 hours, 1 hour of "actual" practice trying to improve my technique and learn new tunes, and an hour of bullshit/practicing tunes I already know because piano is fun. I try to compose for at least 1 hour a day, no matter what. If I'm really working something, I'll of course often have days where I'm composing for 5 hours a day. This is really important, and if you look at this thread a lot of people have this issue where they think they suck too much to write. So what they end up doing is only improvising and never composing, or they just write an 8 bar thing, and give up. If you write for an hour a day , you'll stop caring about how much you suck, and you'll be able to just improve instead of putting off your improvement. I also ideally try to get an hour of "study" done each day where I analyze music I like. I feel comfortable with music theory to the point I don't need to study academic theory every day, so this is how I improve in areas where academic texts don't help. I definitely don't do this everyday no matter how much i try, but i'll usually do it on the weekends. If you are new to theory, which it seems like you are, i would make this a much more important role in schedule, but seriously writing every day is probably the most important.
I'm semi professional so I also dedicate time to finding contacts and sharing my music and networking and trying to get jobs, but I guess that's not really the artistic side of my work.
Grayson Sullivan
Question when trying to figure out what chord voicing to use for an arrangement would it be better to use piano or the the midi instruments?
I'm trying to figure out some interesting voicings, but I feel like the midi isn't accurate to what I'm putting down.
Jack Jenkins
actually i almost always enjoy playing/writing music when i get home from school. all we really do in school is chill and practice some simple pop/rock songs, so it feels rly nice to come home and study classical. thx for the tip about using theory to patch up holes, never rly thought about it that way
y i usually practice around a hour a day at home and i also play pop piano at school for a few hours each day. i like your point about writing stuff down, i really need to record more of what i play, i just have kind of limited funds with a shit computer. Also i feel everything i play sounds like shit because of my cheap keyboard, compared to when i play on a real piano.
William Anderson
neither will be accurate depending on what you're orchestrating it. Wind and string instruments will aim for more "just" intonation than your piano or midi will show. Either way my dude why not try both and see how you like it, the piano is a great tool if you are always thinking about how it translates to instruments. You're always going to have to be thinking "but how would this work on a real instrument" no matter what you do
Nathaniel Edwards
What's a good way to improve my sight reading and get it to a very good level? I know practice makes perfect which I plan to do but I mean, does anyone know a good book/site etc. that's reputable and will greatly help me?
Isaac Taylor
Looks like a weird Chinese version of neumes.
Ian Perez
So how do you compose?
William Thomas
Neumes look weirder to me. Numbers for scale degrees are kinda intuitive.
Adrian Torres
Does anyone know how I could divide this among an orchestra?
Jaxon Perez
how big is the orchestra? you would need to make copies for each of the members, or maybe you could use an opaque projector, if the venue has space for something like that.
Samuel Anderson
Strings, 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets in Bb, 2 bassoons, 4 horns, 3 trumpets in c, 2 trombones, bass trombone, tuba, timpani and percussion
these are just the individual parts i dont know how many instrumentalists right now
Cooper Nelson
that's tough, since it's one gesture I'd imagine you'd want to keep it fairly homogenous? I would personally put it all in the strings, divisi as needed
Charles Ward
what's the dynamics at that part? forte? piano?
I'd put the top and the bottom system into different instruments to emphasize the latent polyphony, assuming that's the context.
Chase Miller
the art of orchestration has many options. There is no right or wrong answer, its personal preference.
Orchestration can be just as creative as composition itself
I'd say it's forte. 0:23 is where it comes in. I really have no idea with what to do with this phrase. I can hear in my head how to orchestrate everything else
Grayson Turner
nice, Poulenc. Anyways, in this case it's definitely not latent polyphony, that kinda notation only means to indicated the piano fingerings. The measure feels like some kinda sforzando, so if you were to use only strings for the right hand and brass for the 5ths in the bass for the prev. 3 bars, on this sudden 16th movement I'd add all the woodwinds and even the piccolo, and then go back to strings/brass for the next 3 bars.
Jose Lewis
suggest a simple piece that we're gonna write down by ear for the ear training stream
good idea, the piece having sheet music already might be a bit moot.
I'd also take stuff that /comp/ just improvised, assuming it's not too complex.
Mason Barnes
...
Jason Reed
I have a piece that is fairly simple but with toughish chords (all triads though) and a fairly non diatonic melody if that interests you. Could post sheet music when you're done to check clyp.it/o5o3frle
Brody Howard
hm, the chords and notes are fine, just the rhythm is not too clear in the beginning due to the rubato. If you could give me a clue about the time sig is and the first note duration, I could possibly make it work.
Nolan Taylor
the time sig is 4/4 and the first note is just a crotchet anacrusis
Easton Gray
okay, still, up to :20 I can't quite get the rhythm. Is it tuplets?
Angel Wilson
it's basically mostly quarter notes but in heavy jazz style rubato. sorry, I should've realized the rhythm would be a bit shit for a transcription excercise
Eli Ramirez
It's alright, getting the rhythm even through thick rubato is also part of ear training, although not something you'd start on.
Jaxon Turner
Bump with a piece in chinese notation. No overdots means I have to use 8 for ottava 1.
20th century classical? Twentieth-Century Harmony Vincent Persichetti (dunno how to spell)
Caleb Martinez
bmp, fap and sleep
James White
fuck off back to your music school 12 year old
Jaxson Torres
>2016 >using music notation
David Price
Seriously speaking though are there anyone who is in music school now? Like, proper conservatory or college.
I'm considering taking a minor in Music.
Luis Moore
Yeah, myself and I believe several others.
Joseph Gutierrez
Wow.. And here i am finding it hard to do a 30 min daily piano practice and a 10 min practice on reading notes and doing some producing.
feeeeeeeeeeeeeck why couldn't i been born with impeccable work ethic and will power
Christopher Gutierrez
not him but personally it's really more about learning to enjoy it than having an impeccable work ethic (although that would certainly help), and getting used to it. I don't hunker down to get this practice done, I open my case and have a grand old time. Granted my practice isn't nearly as structured as his, the hour of bullshit, hour of actual technique practice, and hour of composition are indistinguishable in my practice sessions, as are the hour of analysis and my regular internet bullshit. No doubt they're all a lot less productive than necessary as a result.
I don't even count piano as practice anymore, I play it enough already when the computer isn't fulfilling my daily fun quota, It's so much easier to start playing than my cello that it's actually become a distraction from cello practice.
Kevin Evans
I'm at a college, but I can probably answer most of your questions.
Matthew Sullivan
It's actually one of my dream to study music, but I fucked up and rejected music school and went to CS instead.
Can you describe how being in music school feels like? Back then I got accepted as a piano performer, but I'm interested in composition now.
Can I leech off some of your college text?
Ethan Bailey
What's some good way to ear train. On piano
Cooper Rivera
Honestly the vast majority of what I learn from is my own reading, and most of that is in the pasta already. (particularly the Kostka which I've been forcing onto everyone on /comp/ for several threads).
would say more but I need to bump the thread
Jordan Peterson
>Can you describe how being in music school feels like?
It's fun and interesting. You get to be surrounded by music and talk about music all the time. It's also very social between friends and ensembles. However, it's a lot of work. Music school demands so much time. Practicing and ensembles eat up so much time and that's before your homework.
>Can I leech off some of your college text?
What are you interested in? Most of what I learned is from self study too since my school's theory program is a sham.
