As a soldier myself I can give you my breakdown of this. I've often wondered what would happen in a situation where the government orders the military to confiscate all guns. I've looked into the military law that governs the relationship between government and the military. I believe this would cause a civil war, not between the civilian population and the government, not a revolution. This would cause a war in the military itself. Part of the military would proceed to uphold the order, part of the military would oppose the order. Both parts first operational priority would be to terminate the other, bc it stands in the way of them upholding what they think is right.
Now I think this bc soldiers swear an oath. Not to the government, or the president. Not to any person or organization. They swear to uphold the constitution from enemies foreign and DOMESTIC, and to obey the LAWFUL orders of those appointed above them. No on in the military is told they have follow all orders, only lawful ones. It's drilled into our heads pretty good. Thank the nazis for that. And in situations of domestic violence, insurrection, or say like a president declares himself dictator ect. the final decision, the true resting place of authority lies with the military. The military can ignore the government, institute its own government, and suspend operations of the government in the event of insurrection and or unconstitutional abuse of power (self declared dictators things like that). However bc of the "only have to follow lawful orders" this can happen at any level of leadership.
As the order comes down from the executive through the chain of command, at every level that commander could decide that it's unlawful and go against it. This cascading through the pyramid of the chain of command from executive to the actual bottom level soldiers would result in a very fractured military that would implode upon itself I feel.
Poignant opinion sir. To what end is this contemplation?
Nathaniel Taylor
Regardless I found this somewhat enlightening
Ayden King
Ah but Russians were told to follow any order, not any Lawful order.
Owen Miller
yes soldiers always disobey unconstitutional orders en masse, that's why when ordered to wage a war without a declaration of war, the military went to civil war. oh wait was there even a single court martial for refusing?
Dylan Perez
No end. Was gonna post it as a reply in another thread, thread 404d before I got around to putting it in words. Which I still did badly. I'm researching for a paper on this, and being a soldier myself I know how most of us at the bottom feel about he possibility of orders against the American population. just hard to fit it into a Sup Forums post.
Dominic Martinez
>Iraq and Afghanistan >same thing as door to door in america
Thomas Young
aren't the lowest levels of soldiers also trained to think interpreting the legality or constitutionality of an order is their superiors problem? pretty sure half the country already thinks (wrongly) that the 2nd amendment refers only to the national guard (militia) or just plain shouldn't apply. if the courts, congress, and president interpret this way, how many soldiers do you HONESTLY think would say fuck it, they're just gun haters, let's risk getting court martialed or killed for disobeying. my money is on zero.
Samuel Harris
and besides, if their were such a mass confiscation, it would be carried out by domestic and federal law enforcement. no reason to go all overturning posse commitatus for something easily accomplished by 1033 outfitted SWAT soldiers.
Luis Adams
>me and everyone I know are the lowest level of soldiers
It's not like how it used to be. Least not in the army anymore. Maybe the marines are still brainwashed, but pretty much every junior enlisted, and mostly all the Nco's wouldn't confiscate guns.
Gotta remember, most people in the military are pro gun, own guns, and have family members that own guns. You think their gonna turn their own in? That their gonna go take the guns from their buddies families?
Jaxson Fisher
...1033 refers to the pentagon program of selling bulk military weapons/armored vehicles/etc to local police departments for typically just the cost of shipping, a large part of why cops outfitted as heavy as delta force serve misdemeanor search warrants in bumfuckville
tough fucking talk but how many going to stand when their superior says do it or face court martial
Jackson Kelly
and how many are going to keep standing after the first guy is hauled off to leavenworth in chains
Eli Ross
Pvt. Pyle not liking Sgt. Hartman's order to surrender his weapon.
Brayden Young
>1.2 million police officers in America >maybe 200k are trained and able to confiscate >roughly 50 million gun owners
Logistically without the military I don't see how it's possible to confiscate that many guns
Cooper Bennett
One of my closets customers works for Homeland Security. Hes always telling me bout the shit storm that is bout to come down on us. He's already getting his shit together. Talks about moving to South America or some shit. I always tell him to keep me close. Last time i saw him he had 150k in a ballistic style back pack that looked like you could toss this shit in lava and it will float.
Zachary Walker
serve warrants on anyone registered who hasn't voltunartily surrendered, with a felony charge hanging over not voluntarily surrendering. years in prison for anyone caught later. of course the law will be violated in mass and meaningful eradication would be impossible. you think they care? see: war on drugs. just throw felonies at anyone you catch with $prohibited_item and call it a day
Carter King
It's not about the bottom level soldiers. It's the commanders. One general might decide its unlawful, now there's a whole division of soldiers not doing it. Some of those units in that division will have commanders that will see it as their duty to remove him. Some will see it as their duty to protect them.
Now go down through all the levels. All the divisions, brigades, battalions, companies in the military (I don't know what the other branches call their organizational units). It would all just implode
Xavier Martin
This is how it would play out in reality.
My whole position is based on the hypothetical reality that the military is ordered to confiscate civilian weaponry
Cooper Price
I would use the second amendment to destroy all the governments and I would be so grateful to the soldiers who give their lives for the freedom they now enjoy in the Iraq and Afghanistan. And lybia.
Colton Taylor
Our local sheriff and police refuse to enforce the state's few bullshit guns laws already.
so why not play out the just as likely fantasy that president trump orders the military to round up all democrats and losers
so how much money theft and drug shipping did you see your fellow soldiers engage in in the middle east
Luke Martin
Where would they place the people who refused to turn over their guns?
>Hurr Durr felony charge >Hurr Durr prison time
>implying that we have room in our vastly overpopulated prisons for millions of gun owners
Camden Hughes
this scenario would be such a waste of time and money.
Zachary Diaz
Only theft I saw was contracting companies.
Charged the government >33$ to boil a sack a laundry >60$ per meal >20$ for the styrofoam tray it came on >18$ per bottle of water (bottled on base from recycled wastewater)
Wyatt Bennett
>implying millions would risk a felony to keep their guns >implying otherwise law abiding citizens wouldn't be first time offenders elligible for diversion if they surrendered and took paper >implying private prison isn't profitaable >implying a huge influx of prisoners would just make CCA et al's mouth water
Lucas James
ITT
William Thomas
but really you are just a pawn to be ordered around and used as cannon fodder if need be. Forget what you swear an oath to, you WILL DO as your fucking told throughout history dictators rose through the ranks of the military bc no one in the ranks could stop them and bc nothing corrupts absolutely like absolute power and there is nothing a mere soldier or even a number of them has done to stop it and there was no military infighting. Soldiers don't count OP
Kevin Brooks
time to look up Oathkeepers.org and see what they are all about
many answers to be found there
Daniel Young
damn you Mahoney!!!
Dylan Garcia
During the flood in High River Alberta a couple of years ago the town was evacuated and the military showed up to help. The RCMP started kicking down doors and breaking into gun safes under the presence of making sure everyone was evacuated and safe. The military was ordered by the RCMP to help and they declined. They actually left the city altogether and maintained the evacuation perimeter rather than help the RCMP. I don't think civil war is an unlikely outcome if things get pushed too far.
Hudson Campbell
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Anthony Allen
War on drugs? The war on drugs has been lost so badly that we now have several states decriminalizing weed or outright making it legal. There is a push starting to decriminalize the recreational use of harder drugs as well. What you are telling me is that the people will not comply en mass and that eventually the government will give up trying to enforce.
Joseph Campbell
It worked for the Nazis.
But soldiers will not disarm their own friends and families. You have to convince them that they are disarming enemies that just happen to be citizens and that they are a threat to your own country. Blacks, Mexicans, Jews, Muslims, etc.
That is why Obama/Hillary are trying to convince people that the NRA is bad and Trump tries to convince people that Mexicans are bad. Trump has honed it to the Muslims now which is a far easier target. Obama has a giant problem convincing people that the NRA is bad since so many people in the NRA are mainstream police and military that see his threat as a direct threat to themselves. It is much easier to give on order to the military to go kill Muslims than it is to order them to go kill all the white and black Americans with guns. Obama should have studied Hitler much more like Trump did.
The bottom line is that the second amendment is to protect all of us from all of the above.
Brandon Harris
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Joshua Hill
let me guess... pic related
Brayden Long
wow...u just proclaimed your stupidity to the whole thread. that takes balls...good on you.
Kevin Hughes
>WHAT ARE YOU GONNA DO!?!? TAKE ON THE GOVERNMENT WITH YOUR AR-15!?!? T. people who apparently think the syrians rebels all had t-72 tanks and mortars sitting in their garages before the war.
Evan Perry
One meme for you.
Kayden Martin
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Matthew Baker
>Comparing the Syrian government to the American government
Josiah Barnes
With active terrorist in town not too many people minded that.
But then Obama went and fucked it all up... Police going after Black people did not go over very well at all.
Note too that during the 1994 assault weapons ban that the government was doing everything they could to heavily arm police departments while doing everything they could to disarm citizens.
Jackson Howard
>It couldn't ever happen here! You can't spend money you don't have forever. The American government has made an enemy of pretty much everyone, and as soon as they trip, everyone is going to kick them while they're weak.
Nolan Jones
It's closer to 320 million guns owned by around 80 million gun owners.
And that's just gun sales that went through an FFL.
Landon Williams
There are roughly 650 million guns in the world.
Roughly 320 million of those are in the United States.
Roughly 20 million of those guns are US military, police and government owned.
The private citizens in the US own the remaining 300 million guns....
And many other estimates show that America might have as many as 750 million guns in the citizen's hands... :)