Hey Theists. What if the reasons you believe aren't actually good ones? Is Faith a reliable pathway to truth...

Hey Theists. What if the reasons you believe aren't actually good ones? Is Faith a reliable pathway to truth. Get ready to be destabilized, by simple questions alone.

We will start with the easy ones.

Which God have you chosen to believe in?

...

there is no distinct "god", there is a god but its not a human it is just there

All of them.

Talos

How confident are you this god exists?

>Which God have you chosen to believe in?
i pick and choose from all the religions.
no god in particular.
i consider universal energy / consciousness to be god.

Isn't it obvious that at one point in time, or before time, the rules of our universe didn't apply? At some point, matter and energy were created from nothing. Some people like to believe that some entity did that on purpose.
I see no harm in it as long as you don't force your ideas on someone else or hurt others because of your belief.

I believe in the force that moves live to go on. The chance that caused our cosmos to occur. The spark that starts the human heart.

Energy simply put, I suppose

Sure, if you want to have an infinitely lose definition of what that means. Dark matter or black holes are my gods.

what is energies source?

This is correct
Pretty convinced.

>infinitely lose definition

thats the beauty of "god"

Exactly. It's just a force that was created from nothing and continues on.

Agreed, we have no information to make strong claims one way or the other about an event so long ago. This doesn't involve faith however, which is where illegitimate moves on the certainty of unknowns gets made.

Why?

Does this energy interact with our current universe?

Whether it's harmful is irrelevant to the post, I think. Is any religious belief justified? I've debated hundreds and possibly thousands of theists. I've never heard a compelling reason for belief in their gods.

there is a god. spirituality is inherent for every human being.
throughout the years, humanity has attempted to understand god by personifying god, creating idols nad metaphors that could maybe help humanity understand god. while good intentions create religion, crooked people use religion to further their personal agendas and take advantage of the spiritually weak.

the truth is, god is forever beyond human comprehension. no amount of scientific advancements will ever discover the origins of everything. no human being will ever understand what god is.

Look up Anthony Magnabosco for enlightenment friend.

Im with this guy
>Skyrim's for the Nords!

If God is beyond comprehension, then how can you be sure he/she/it exists? How do you know that all religions were created with good intentions?

No there is really no merit in any organized religon. They all are based on books or stories passed down. They say they have faith in god but to believe them mean to have faith in man not faith in god. I don't believe people really were contacted by an outside entity to write down rules and shit.
I just wanted to explain the logic behind my own belief in some sort of sentient being existing outside of the restrictions of our existance

Athiests seem to be convinced that mankind and science have discovered everything that exists. It is very possible that there are many things that exist and we just can comprehend their existence. Imagine trying to explain infrared light to people in the 13th century. I can accept that there are many things we don't know. It's a scary concept for a lot of people to admit.

Pics or it didn't happen.

Yes, it causes progression and life

Correction: atheists believe only in that which can be proven. Water can be proven. Global warming can be proven. Your preference for one type of food over another can be proven. The existence of some supernatural entity, however, has yet to be proven. Until it is proven, then, it is not believed. Simple.

Why do you think it causes progression and life?

I'm an atheist and believe many things are unknown. You're confusing the atheist who admits he/she cannot know the truth about something, with the theist, who believes that because we do not know, they know it's god. Argument from ignorance fallacy.

Scientists embrace it and call it excitement. Those afraid turn to religion.

Exactly

Because the fact that we as humans can do many of the things that an omnipotent diety can do, such as create material at the molecular level, create life, annihilate the earth, is evidence enough to believe that some entity was able to do it before us.

>then how can you be sure he/she/it exists?
he she it, there you go personifying again.
i believe god exists simply because i am here. simply because the universe is here. i just think the universe obviously needs a source. and i will believe in god until science proves otherwise. which it never will.

>How do you know that all religions were created with good intentions?
maybe not ALL religions are created with good intentions. but i think most religions are created to help people spiritually and existentially. even religions like islam have verses of peace. unfortunately, like i said before. idiots will use religion as a tool to controll masses of people.

I'll accept this. I'm thinking more of the militant athiests.

I guess I believe that mankind doesn't have the ability to prove everything. It's like a dog trying to understand an assembly line or some other terrible analogy. I can't even resolve the question in my own head so there's no chance that I can convince anyone else.

According to science, energy cannot be created or destroyed. It just is.

according to science.
some energy is constantly being created and destroyed and even be in two places at once.

science has come a long way since you where in school dude.

Compelling is in the eye of the beholder. If you've never felt your views challenged it is because you do not seek truth but only justification.

As it is in the universe, where the current laws of physics apply. That principle doesn't necessarily apply before space and time.

the god i have chosen to believe in is mescalito debate me

>Get ready to be destabilized, by simple questions alone
reddit atheist detected

Since I was a Christian for the first 21 years of my life, I'm obviously open to questioning my beliefs, and always will be. I constantly search for a challenge. I can't help it if I'm never offered one on this subject.

The triune God, Jesus the Father, and the Holy spirit.

the one that actually exists

Why did you change your mind?

Just because I have a standard of evidence doesn't mean I'm not willing to be compelled. That's like saying that anyone who doesn't believe everything he hears isn't open minded.

fuck you nail suckers mescalito is the true god

so sick of atheists who are like oh lol im no longer christian so there must be no god coz all gods are as dumb as christ

do 14 buttons of peyote

I worship the earth and the sun

You cannot disprove my gods

The holocaust never happened. Debate me.

Humans presently do not have that ability. Certainly, there is benefit in humility. I admire that trait, even though I recognize it as something from my theist teachings.

I would highly recommend you (and all other theists) read through deductive logic to get a better understanding of the atheists' dissatisfaction with your assertions of a god's existence. To sum up the idea of deductive logic: only the most basic ideas and facts are self-evident (these being things like "I exist", sensory perceptions, and so forth). Everything else must be DEDUCED from these base evidences.

Thus, when you claim, "god exists", you're making a claim that requires evidence. When you refuse to provide evidence, that just leaves us bewildered. Understand that we only believe that which can be proven. If it can't be proven, we don't believe it. For instance, it can't be proven that I'm actually a jellyfish. You can run any test imaginable, and I will not be proven to be a jellyfish. No matter how hard I insist that I'm a jellyfish, you will not believe me. Now, if I were to take that a step further and simply refuse to allow you to conduct any tests to determine if I was a jellyfish, in the first place, you should be even more skeptical. We have clear ways to determine whether I'm a jellyfish, yet I'm refusing to allow you to conduct this test so that you can see, too, that I'm a jellyfish.

In this way, by insisting to us that god is real without providing us any sort of test to verify for ourselves is much like insisting you're a jellyfish without providing us the means to prove one way or another that you are, in fact, a jellyfish.

That's a pretty long story. In short it wasn't voluntary. I started to question things that didn't make sense, and asked religious family members for answers which were insufficient, then searched the Internet for answers which were also insufficient, since all apologetics use logical fallacies. After months of questioning my beliefs and praying for answers and praying for the ability to continue believing, since the thought of losing my belief terrified me, with the possibility of hell, and facing my mortality. I eventually gave up on trying to make myself believe it and accepted that I was an atheist.

I didn't say there was no god. I said I've never been given compelling evidence of a god.

Nothing can be proven except tautology. Everything in science is only currently unfalsified. Now, there are varying levels of evidence for many things. The level of evidence you require to believe something in the absence of contrary evidence is a personal choice. Over 2/3rd of the world's humans believe a god is real. ThaT is -some- evidence of God (but obviously not proof). What is your counter evidence to dispute the current majority.

you was there & don't threw any bomb to this sh¡t, what a faggit

>you're making a claim that requires evidence. When you refuse to provide evidence

how can you quantify something beyond human comprehension? most scientific "laws" are based off of unproven assertions too.

Let's say that god exist . we he would be er look human. There are millions of living objects in this world, and humans are the worts and the biggest problem. So why should go love you

what in the fuck are you saying dude?

Again: everything must be deduced from base evidences. Just because over 2/3 of the world's humans believe something doesn't mean there's actual evidence for it. One must discern between logic and wishful thinking. If 2/3 of the world's humans believe something solely because they WISH it were true, that is not evidence in the slightest.

But I'll humor you: explain what evidence you have for god's existence. Make believers out of me and the others.

You say there is a god, but you also say that a god would be beyond human comprehension. How do you then comprehend the existence of a god?

Also, how is spirituality inherent to every human being? How would the concept of spirituality apply to those with mental disabilities such as severe autism?

Lol, yeah he's not helping so much. Though, I get his point that a white human god, specifically in Christianity, is ridiculous considering the hundreds of billions of galaxies in the universe.

Skyrim belongs to the khajiit!

Actually if you look at the lore the beast races were the og niggas of tamriel

No, they're based off evidence. Where are you getting this nonsense? And if by "unproven" you mean "not 100% guaranteed", then yes, you're correct: nothing is ever 100% guaranteed until it is being directly observed as it's occurring. However, most people would tend to think that 99.99% is a pretty good second-choice.

KEK
PRAISE KEK
DELIVER UNTO ME DUBS

Please site source,because i can't seem to find anything to confirm this. Obviously. If you were to change the laws of physics, then anything would be possible.

I feel like your entire sentiment is self-defeating. What evidence could anyone possibly offer someone with such a mindset?

>How do you then comprehend the existence of a god?
i dont. i understand its greater than i am and i dont try to understand it. but i also dont depend on god, or pray to god to fix things in my life or give me certain things.

> How would the concept of spirituality apply to those with mental disabilities such as severe autism?
many mental illnesses are not fully understood yet. theres no way of knowing how these people experience reality. so i wont be speaking for them. but i do believe they have some form of spirituality. even if their existence is solely to reinforce or test their struggling caretakers spirituality.

for example comets.
those things are a complete mystery and the scientific consensus is that they come from the oort cloud, without any proof or evidence this is considered true.

why are spiritual experiences not good enough for "evidence" of a god?

I feel like you missed his point. He's asking you how to measure something that can't be measured. The answer is that you can't measure it. That's the entire nature of the problem.

Although the bit about laws being based off of unproven assertions is another story entirely...

Only quality of life which results from belief.the truth us that which makes us lead fulfilling lives and theism wins that by a longshot.

none, I am enlighten by my inteligences
perhaps god is beyond the realm of explaining or even fathom because we only see through our limited view of the universe. perhaps only our understanding of physics the laws of the universe only exist where we're at. things other places, (other universes) may work differently. works we can't think of, perhaps colors we can't envision because we never seen them. like telling a born blind person what color looks like. you can't. define what a god is, and it would not be correct, we cannot explain it with our limited perspective. it wouldn't be the full truth. much complex. like ants trying to learn calculus.

It's not necessarily self-defeating; rather, it's simply him (subtly) stating that he will believe anything, so long as he wishes to and there is even the tiniest shred of evidence that can be interpreted as supporting that belief.

Maybe I was being too literal with how I read your statement, then. Sorry.

>many mental illnesses are not fully understood...
Fair enough. What about someone like me then, who thinks the notion of spirituality is hogwash? Actually, perhaps I should hear your definition of what that means before I dismiss it.

how come no one has bombed that shithole?

Truth leads to fulfillment? I'm not certain I understand you.

If theism was intrinsically fulfilling, you wouldn't have atheists, I would think.

... there's hardly a "consensus" on where comets come from. Some guys have suggested ideas as to their origins, and those ideas simply haven't been disproven yet. Almost completely untested hypotheses that are nowhere close to being "scientifically understood".

As for spiritual experiences: what kind of experience are we talking here?

Nothing gets labeled by the scientific community as a "law" lightly. Though the sensationalist news has no problems with that...

And I didn't miss his point. The idea of something being "immeasurable" isn't so much a problem intrinsic to the nature of a thing as much as it is our lack of attention to it. For a long time, things like distance and weight have been incredibly important to human way of life. So we took steps to standardize the way we interact with those attributes. You can measure anything--emotions, thoughts, ideas--given the appropriate time and consideration into developing such a system. It's actually something I think we need to start taking more seriously, rather than regarding as a "soft science". Emotional responses vary greatly in intensity, and since we're at a point in our society where degree of feelings is becoming more and more relevant, I'd say a standardized unit for measuring them is long overdue.

my definition of spirituality?
i believe being spirituality has nothing to do with organized religion, although organized religion can lead some to be spiritual. religion is a great tool that is horribly misused. anyway, my definition i guess would be as follows

being in touch with yourself, your consciousness and where you come from. knowing your place in the grand scheme of things. respecting the planet we live on since we are nothing but extensions of the planets energy itself. knowing that we are nothing but creatures that inhabit this world no different than, birds, dogs, and even insects. knowing that everyone deserves patience and a chance at love.

>What about someone like me then, who thinks the notion of spirituality is hogwash?

i believe everyone on earth will have a spiritual experience at one point in there life. if not, then death will bring about that experience, but by that time it will be too late for confession / being saved.

the point is. many scientific understandings are based off of unproven facts and your demand for evidence is hypocritical.

>what kind of experience are we talking here?

the kind where people experience god. what do you mean?

You cannot measure anything simply by the (admittedly petty) virtue that you don't know what you don't know. But taking that triteness aside, in the context of metaphysics, you literally cannot measure something.

who say that there is only one god or that god have a personification its a nice bait bro

I think I agree with about half of this. I think it's important to be introspective and consider our part in the grand scheme of things, but I don't presume my species' origin or believe that the planet 'deserves' respect, or anything like that.

The closest thing I can imagine to having such a spiritual experience (as you explained) is when I take pause (often accidentally) and realize how small and amazing I am. I think the japanese call it yugen.

I just don't see where a metaphysical creator needs to or does come into play in any of that, I guess.

>I believe in universal energy
This is what my "psychic" 9th grade English teacher said once.

>I hope that rose quartz love talisman actually helps you get laid, because your future looks bleak.

>many science unproven facts
Such as?

>experience god
So: how do you, personally, experience god?

Of course you don't know what you don't know. That's why you learn. Do you think the first humans had any concept of what a mile was? A thousand kilos? No. Their understandings of distance and weight barely passed as rudimentary "heavy" and "near by". Similarly, our understandings of emotions and intensities are primitive "very sad" and "kinda happy".

We know emotions. We have rough understandings of the differences between emotional states that are similar in type, but differ in degree. All we need next is to create language--like we have with other aspects of reality--to be able to handle incremental measures thereof.

It's really quite simple. Now, where do metaphysics come into this? I'm afraid that came quite out of nowhere, from where I'm standing.

buddism and there is no god
there is no idol
just you lots want to feel special
be it a bieliber or not

>but I don't presume my species' origin or believe that the planet 'deserves' respect
you are a growth of this planet.
a side effect of all the randomness. you are physical manifestation of the planets and universes consciousness. if the planet dies, so you do. you probably think you wont live long enough to see the planet die, which may be true. but take a look at how fucking rare life is. it is precious. if you ever have children you will understand and appreciate life far more than you do now. care for the planet as future life will inhabit it. make the world a better place than you found it.

>I just don't see where a metaphysical creator needs to or does come into play in any of that,
the creator is inside you. god is present everywhere. you create your very own existence by the things you believe, choose not to believe. you hear all the time that "god" created everything. and that "god" gave you life. if you just stop and think again at how fucking crazy it is to exist. about incomprehensible it is to exist. and then also think that you have the power to actually manipulate and chance this fuckin existience you live it and your own free will however you like. its just incredible. humanity is so insignifcant, but with spirituality it makes one feel as powerful as a god.

at least it does for me. we have the power to change lives. and have the power to physically manipulate the "reality" we exist in. are these not god like powers? perhaps the human mind is too conditioned by society. perhaps technology has taken us away from spirituality and detached us for our natural being. our minds occupied by silly shit. most of humanity has forgotten what it means to be "human"

>Such as?
i already mentioned the origin of comets.
but heres another one. origin of the universe
>So: how do you, personally, experience god?
lots of acid and shrooms.
only takes one time.

bump

Just because humans can gain knowledge of the unknown does not mean they will, or that such knowledge exists.

Perhaps I was mistaken in assuming that by 'something outside of human comprehension,' he was mentioning something metaphysical, but that was my interpretation.

>comets; universe

Again: the origin of comets isn't a "scientific understanding". It's literally a suggestion some people made, based on what we currently know about the universe. I don't know how much more clearly I can spell it out for you that it is NOT held on the same level as, say, the theory of gravity (which we have appropriate equipment to more rigorously test). The same thing goes for suggestions regarding the origin of the universe. We lack the equipment to provide a more definitive answer, but given what we know so far, that is the idea we're toying around with. It's like the difference between "murder suspect" and "guy caught on tape stabbing a woman to death": two TOTALLY separate things.

>shrooms, acid

How did you know you were experiencing god?

Bruh

I don't think anyone is making the claim that we will know everything. That has nothing to do with atheism.

sure one theory is more widely held than others.
such as the theory of gravity. but there are some theories out there that claim gravity doesnt even exist. i feel like you are missing the point, or maybe im not being clear enough. the very nature of science depends on previous "theories" or be proven or unproven. there is no "final theory" because its all based on new, or previous assertions. nothing will ever be 100% fact as there will always be new scientific advancements.

I would never in my life thought that I would be enlightened on Sup Forums......damn

hey man im not trying to get you to believe in my beliefs. i was just responding to the thread to try and get people to understand why someone might believe in a god.

everyones got their own version of spirituality. its an extremely personal thing.

Sure you would. Not everyone comprehends what they read. Atheists are annoyed at others expressing a fulfillment they fail to understand.

Noice trolling m8.

Faith means truly "believing with your heart" in the early Greek versions of Jewish literature.

I have faith in physics.
I have faith in the fact that my parents love me.
I have faith in that 'working' all the time is a big part of happiness.
I have faith in the fact that having a good clear conscience can make one have some deep happiness throughout life.

You can neither prove or disprove the existence of 'God' because we observe/ truly "know" our universe through observation, aka physics. People back in the day had cool logic though, and "knew" God through what they saw as miracles, because whatever created our universe doesn't have to obey its laws

Can't tell if this is serious or just dry sarcasm
Can't tell if you fell for the bait or are serious

Either way, everyone's got some spirituality one way or another.

also, i never thought a rational conversation could be had without shitty insults getting thrown around.especially about the topics we are discussing.

its kinda strange to be honest

You cannot argue or debate faith. Faith relies on belief beyond fact, and is therefore inapplicable to all logic. Asking a religious person to validate what they believe is like asking a heroin addict to legitimize their addiction.

>fell for the bait or are serious
>serious or just dry sarcasm

doesnt really matter does it?
i have two choices.

i can go about the rest of my day angry cuz i got baited
or i can choose to be ignorant and go about the rest of my day feeling good that i helped someone understand spirituality just a bit more.

for the sake of my own well being, ill choose ignorance. cuz having hate is just as retarded. maybe even more.

No, it doesn't matter, was just pondering..

tho why one would get angry because they were baited is beyond me