I major in film at college and I also studied a bit about the business of film. I'm no expert, but from its history I have a hypothesis of why this film failed both in the financial and critical departments.
Simply put, DC and Warner Brothers gambled too much with a director who doesn't know how to make a good story. If you look at his history, Snyder is definitely more competent in making imagery look great than telling an actual story. So as a result, DC probably made the wrong choice for director when they pumped in 400 million into this thing total including both the budget and advertising. They brought in a director who doesn't know how to make compelling stories and thus not get people hooked in. This resulted in a film that looks great, but is very sloppy in its narrative with all of its dream sequences, butchering of comic adaptations, misunderstood characters, bad casting choices like with Lex Luthor, useless character like Lois Lane, too long a runtime, and flat out STOPPING the whole plot just to watch future character trailers.
They needed one billion for this thing just to break even but they got a person who was destined to mess up the complex characters and unique stories that would have had this film good to see, thus avoiding negative reviews discouraging others from seeing it.
Marvel and Fox may not be perfect, but with their biggest successes they at least knew they already had things great to run off from like Iron Man and The Avengers for Marvel when making Civil War, and the longing for a Deadpool film and Days of Future Past when making Deadpool. DC gambled 400m on a film that is a sequel to another film that wasn't even well-received when it came out in 2013 and got in a person who should be a visual director at the very most to lead this whole thing. Marvel and Fox knew better the hindsight of what if these movies failed, and strangely enough, this means while Deadpool grossed less it is still the more profitable film for Batman v Superman, and Civil War is probably going to be more successful than the film already. Came back here after hearing Zack Snyder is apparently going to be put in charge of directing Justice League despite everything else. I wonder at this point if DC can understand what they are doing wrong...
Eli Foster
>comic book characters >complex
yeah, good luck with your studies mate
Gavin Ramirez
Some comic book series are better than others, but Zack Snyder was presented with an opportunity to adapt one of the best Batman graphic novels and overall stories ever made and he fucked up big.
I don't even think he read the thing from just watching the film. All that's in there is from TDKR as I recall is the mechsuit and the fact Batman and Superman fight each other. It's like he carved out the actually interesting reason why the two fought and replaced it with his own shitty fanfiction.
Nolan Flores
Superheroes are for children and manchildren. That's the end of it
Isaac Bell
>I major in film at college Stopped reading
Angel Long
I think the SJW cringe when Deadpool came out would like to disagree with you. Top kek.
Jace Sullivan
so are you actually going to back any of what you're saying up? no? ok great
Christian Brown
Why bother? it was already turned into an animated film
Adam Robinson
True, the animated adaptation of TDKR kicked ass, but it's still a shame to see the potential incorporating some of the best elements from it into a unique BvS film would do considering how Affleck makes for a decent Batman (IMO) and how Snyder can easily bring the comic panels to life with awe. It's like the intro when the parents get murdered, but then it all goes down from there...
Colton Barnes
Didn't read your post. I already know why it failed. It was one of the most confusing plots in the history of movies. And Jesse Eisenberg sucked as Lex Lutor.
Both of these links show Batman v Superman costed a fuckton of cash to make and advertise, and the RT score shows Man of Steel was mostly split down the line in terms of quality. Also, it is opinion, but I think you can find many people including the Walkers and Brad Jones that Snyder is definitely better at making stuff look good than actually making a plot. That combined with an overblown budget asking for 800m to break even (fucked up with the estimates in the OP) and wanting 1b just to be profitable is not wise.
Hunter Gutierrez
I ended up mentioning those two things in the OP, so on the same page there. I think these two things came from the director though to be specific. Lol.
Eli Watson
Let me just ask you this:
Knowing that MoS was already canon, knowing that BvS was being used as a world-building movie, how do you adapt DKR without inverting the theme? That is exactly what he did by pitting a young, fledgling Superman against a jaded, disillusioned, obsessive Bruce, making Clark's death inspire Bruce back to heroism instead of the reverse.
And while you may question the placement of the JL "trailers" within the flow of the film, they're the most blatant clue the audience receives concerning what Lex was actually planning.
As far as Snyder is concerned, I think he can deliver some stunning visuals and carry a subtext on the strength of same, but he's historically taken a rather large canvas to do it. With any luck, teaming wth Affleck will give us the best of both worlds - Snyder's visuals and Affleck's demonstrated knack for taut, concise story-telling.
Aaron Williams
Not related to any of the conversation going on here, but I told my gf that I'd never see this turd and she pointed out that if was free on a flight I'd probably watch it, and she's right.
Xavier Phillips
Well allright then
Chase Clark
I think in that case the problem was already there because Snyder made Superman in MoS too much like Batman already, so the greatest potential was already lost. Man of Steel was heartless too many including me. It was all dark, gritty, and had Superman destroying cities not caring too much about how people died until the end, when his signature thing in the DC Universe is that he is a hopeful and peaceful sign of kindness, and that is why he is so polar to Batman's character, and that's why the contrasting along with the comparison makes the conflict more understandable. But all of that was lost before Batman v Superman started filming because Superman and Batman were already too much alike.
But even then I don't think Snyder adapted TDKR returns really. All I can remember is the mechsuit, the fact Batman and Superman fight, and that's it. Everything else seems to be sequel bait for Justice League, the Death of Superman, a Marvel envy product, and I could go on forever. Why the fuck did Snyder feel as if this film should have been a million things at the same time when making a good Batman v Superman film was more than enough. Probably could have spared us the extra half hour.
Easton Diaz
>And while you may question the placement of the JL "trailers" within the flow of the film, they're the most blatant clue the audience receives concerning what Lex was actually planning.
Designing names and logos for other superheroes?
Lincoln Diaz
You know he didn't write it, yeah? Goyer wrote it and Terrio punched it up.
Jackson Perez
>Why Batman v Superman failed (kinda) Stopped reading @ failed
Bentley Perez
none of what you just posted necessitates expertise in film to point out
now back yourself up as to why the movie is shit
Oliver King
If you're gonna be on a flight going from one end of he Pacific to the other then you'll probably be good enough to watch the "Ultimate Edition". Think the original cut is too long? The ultimate cut is apparently between 3 to 4 fucking hours long.
Nicholas Foster
Wow congrantulations user
Your degree has clearly enabled you to make some incisive and sophisticated assertions here
Now I know what was surely impossible to know before, that it's a bad idea to spend a whole bunch of dollars to have a sequel made to a widely disliked movie and have it directed by the same guy
truly now I see
Dylan Thomas
I never said it was shit though, I think it has good moments, but I think in the long run it's bad still. Not the worst, just bad. Though if you look up, the critics panned it, and while some audiences look at it more positively, there are also plenty who thinks it was either disappointing or flat out crap.
Anthony Lopez
>The ultimate cut is apparently between 3 to 4 fucking hours long. fuck's sake
Nathaniel Ross
>I studied at film college in order to tell you Zack Snyder was the reason why BvS wasn't good
Thanks for telling us what we've known for fucking years.
Kevin Brooks
I know Goyer is also responsible for a lot of this shit, but I still think when seeing the movie it reeks of Snyder's faults. Aka he makes everything look good but he either doesn't care to fix the confusing as fuck story, or he thinks it's okay to go with and accepts it to begin with. I didn't work on the film, so I don't know exactly how it went down, but after seeing and studying it, I think it shows a huge hand of Snyder's worse faults, even if his visuals are great.
But yeah, Goyer CERTAINLY did not help!
Tyler Reyes
Yup. Connect these dots:
1) Smear campaign to sway public opinion against Supes. 2) Government approval and basic carte blanche to deliver them a "deterrent," 3) Turning up the heat under Bruce to the point where he steals the kryptonite to confront Clark. 4) Attempting to Blackmail Superman into a murder he could have very easily committed. 5) Gathering information on additional metahumans and doing nothing with it besides designing personalized logos for them.
Take all those pieces and see what you can come up with. For added fun, throw in the Kryptonian AI, Doomsday, and ask yourself if you think Clark had delivered Bruce's head as requested, Lex would have released it then or later.
Henry Garcia
>confusing as fuck story you should get your head checked
Ryan Taylor
MoS was far from heartless to me, but to each his own.
Owen Powell
I agree, you don't need to go to where I went to find the full answer, but when it comes to studying film in college you will here A LOT about how to be wise with your advertising budget and campaign after the film is being made and after it is done. Some may not know of how important an over bloated advertising campaign can cause later problems.
True still, :P
Ayden Robinson
>implying you can predict the future.
Christian Morris
3 hours, 2 minutes to be exact. Releases July 19th.
Samuel Barnes
Sucker Punch, Watchmen, Man of Steel.
Carson Bell
the thing that's absolute bullshit here is that you're not expounding or explaining a point of view, you're not offering anything resembling perspective. i'd accept nothing else from Sup Forums but i guess this has always been the norm in mass media
Jace Perry
I just don't understand in anyway why BvS had to be told the way it's told and that lead to me seeing a confusing as fuck plot. Lex Luthor's plans make no sense, and why do we have to have all these dream sequences, one of which is a dream within a dream? By the end it gets more simple to understand, but the whole middle to me is just a big batch of "What the fuck is going on here, and why does all of this shit need to be in the film?"
Really all that needed to be said by the end to summarize all the substance was this:
"Batman and Superman don't like each other. Until Martha, now they do. Supes dies. The end."
but instead we somehow end with 2 and a half goddamn hours.
Jace Ward
Say what you will about Sucker Punch, but I happen to think Watchmen and Man of Steel are two of the finest cape films ever made.
Sebastian Morris
i've enjoyed all of those movies. zack snyder is one of my favorite directors and i'm being completely serious right now.
you're just too jaded to enjoy yourself anymore
Joshua Cox
None of those movies is bad.
Austin Ramirez
>one of which is a dream within a dream Kryptonian dream tech combined with something like the comics' "cosmic treadmill" concept to keep the Flash's OP time travel abilities on a real short leash, a smart move in my humble opinion.
Furthermore, I'm betting that whatever tech they used is going to take some other rare energy source. Something like, say, a certain green xenomineral.
Did you get it? The rock?
Aaron Hernandez
>implying you are a director >better than Zack Snyder go to film school like OP user,then form an opinion.
Evan Jones
Ok I will.
Luke Jackson
I doubt Snyder would ever be able to do this.
Luis Clark
>They needed one billion for this thing just to break even They needed 400M to cover production and marketing costs. They've done that. It's that someone somewhere estimated 1.5B gross for some reason, so some feel it's coming in low despite doing better than most cape shit
Nicholas Allen
Doubt away. Time will tell.
Lucas Taylor
>a confusing as fuck plot It's really very straightforward as far as movies go.
Jayden Sullivan
>movies *kino
Joseph Russell
> failed (kinda) >They needed one billion for this thing just to break even
that sounds like the biggest bomb in history, not "kind of failed", retard
Gabriel Rivera
How long is the director's cut of Das Boot?
Christopher Nelson
>BvS had to be told the way it's told
Fact that you understood BvS.yet you want to bitch coz popular opinion.
Xavier Foster
I accidentally put in the wrong number, they needed 800m to break even, but even then in order to be a decent success many estimated 1b dollars for DC to say "We did it!". Then they didn't even reach the 900m mark. Coupled with the fact it had a mega second weekend drop in sales, and the fact the advertising campaign was bloated.
Deadpool was more profitable because they were more conservative in their campaign, and Civil War has flat out made more than 1 billion now.
wait, there are people that think that BvS was too LONG and too COMPLICATED?
what the actual fuck
Adrian Clark
> implying Maybe film, but there's plenty of plebshit out there with as or more complicated plots. It's about as difficult to follow as a typical rom com imo. It's just cape shit lovers finding it too difficult after being dumbed down with marvel tier script writing
Anthony Foster
4h 53m It's been ages since I've seen it, but I remember it being pretty good.
Isaiah Sullivan
Again, I put in the wrong number by accident, it was 800m but even then, the thing still under performed when all was said and done.
Though even if BvS grossed under 200m the projected even mark, there are still some box-office flops that would have been worse. There are multiple films that didn't even make half their budget back!
Jeremiah Torres
It wasn't complicated in the least bit, but it assumed the audience was familiar with old DC concepts. I can see how the Speedy Gonzales and apocalyptic wasteland scenes could be confusing. It was far too long for the reasons OP state. Fuck those Lois Lane scenes.
Angel Flores
Iunno i found MoS and BvS to be more compelling than the average MEU film.
Personally I thought it was bad, but I didn't think it was total shit. I liked Affleck, the imagery I thought was great, the action was good for the most part, but the butchering of the adaptations and the oddly planned narrative left me highly disappointed.
Nicholas Nelson
rather convoluted than complicated
Brayden Young
XD
Dylan Jackson
I blame the eleventh-hour editing butchery. I'm really looking forward to what the director's cut brings to the table.
Lincoln Perez
Come up with anything yet?
Noah Peterson
>they needed 800m to break even Where are you getting these numbers from?
Brandon Adams
I hope the ultimate edition makes it so that the film is trying to be less things at the same time...
Anthony Hernandez
i hope that the ultimate cut will feature more of the flash's time travel shenanigans
Joshua Morgan
People who think they're clever comic artists and have no talent are the worst
Jaxon Campbell
Have you seen any of the analyses that have been making the rounds in these parts?
Though some reported 900m or even 1b, but most I saw from the start to finish said 800m.
Chase Watson
How was it at all convoluted? It was a fairly straight forward story. Bats is pissed because of 9/11-causing Superman. Superman is worried government hates him, tries to cooperate, and it fails. Bats gets triggered and they fight. Lex pisses them both off and fight Lex's monster.
Jaxson Collins
>They needed one billion for this thing just to break even
Lucas Barnes
That's basically the summary of seeing different reports. Some said 800m, a few said 900m, I saw one say 1b.
Jose Price
so what's lex's motivation?
Michael Jones
To be the guy who the government turns to to stop the "alien menace,"
And I don't mean Doomsday.
Jaxon Cox
Bad guy hates good guy because he's different.
Jaxson Morgan
here's how it failed
>the first ever live action batman superman combo movie >struggles to make a billion dollars worldwide
It would be like god himself came to earth, gave undeniable proof that he was god, and everyone forgot about it 4 months later.
Jaxon Adams
he hates god cause his father assraped him as a child
Carson Parker
>major in film at college >repeat the generic critiques everyone's said already Why even make this thread?
Carson Thomas
Not that user but that's weak story telling because it wasn't clear. And why force Bruce to steal it? Why not just give it to him?
Dylan Moore
Just like Maynard Keenan said:
"I know the pieces fit."
Landon Hall
>With a production cost of at least $250 million and added global marketing costs easily topping $150 million, the movie would have to gross $800 million to recoup its investment, if it were reliant just on box office (though the film will also benefit from substantial TV, merchandising and other receipts). Studio insiders consider the $800 million figure inflated. I think what they've garbled there is that investors would like to see a certain roi to invest in future movies. They won't be expecting to double their money necessarily, that'd be ridiculous. They have tho already broken even.
Grayson Jenkins
The context of that is that it was too expensive to make. There have been films like Fantasia that made a ton of cash and were some of the top 3 highest grossing films of the year, but it didn't matter caused it still costed too much. BvS didn't flop but it did underperform.
Jacob Baker
>it wasn't clear Why the fuck else would he do it
Zachary Jones
Part of this is my opinion and I have seen some people who aren't that familiar with advertising campaigns and overblowing them. Like people who would say "200m to make, and made 870m? How did this underperform?!" Then they need to understand how much advertising plays apart.
Also came back because I fully support removing Snyder from being a full blown director for DCEU, but I just heard he is still staying on board for Justice League. So fuck me...
Ian Hernandez
You've just revealed your opinion as shit. Not everything has to be obvious.
Can we go back to the late 90s early 00's era when the plebs watched shit like Fight Club and Donnie Darko and didn't expect everything to be obvious like in their shitty comics.
Carson Campbell
Because having Bruce steal it lets Lex appear to be above blame. The one real hitch in his plan was Senator Finch denying him his import license. It was the one place where he'd have provably been outside the bounds of legality had everything else gone as planned.
Martha was never going to come out of this alive. Neither was Lois. They were the only two living witnesses who could contradict his version of events. Even the Senate bombing took out the security guard, the Senator that gave him what he wanted, and the Senator that was starting to smell a rat.
Luke Ortiz
I didn't study in film at collerge, and I didn't study a bit about the business of film. I could have told you this myself.
Liam Young
But 150 and 250 is 400
not 800
Connor Rivera
I know right.
Jason Gutierrez
I think everyone seems to be overlooking the incredible fact that it's the first live action movie of all time to feature batman, superman, and wonder woman, with the promise of a justice league movie, and it's struggling to make 1 billion worldwide. This movie should have made 2.3 easy with all of that icon power behind it.
David Allen
If you have major in film and this is all you can come up with. Then you are fucking pathetic student and it was waste of money.
Easton Cox
Which is bullshit because I've never read a Batman or Superman comic and understood it just fine. The dream was obviously a vision of a possible future when Superman turns nuts and fucks everything up. It was probably in some comic, but who cares as long as it got the point across.
Jayden Green
the best part about the complaints about the dreams is that they don't happen randomly they're telegraphed ahead of time
Jeremiah Moore
You tell me.
Gg m8
Then why keep them alive? Why not straight out murder Martha? Not like Superman knew she was still alive. Look, I liked the movie, but lex was fucking horrible.
John Rivera
To be fair, that would make it the second or third grossing movie ever, so I don't expect THAT MUCH from it, but yeah, when it comes to the first movie featuring possibly the three most famous superheroes of all time together on the big screen ALL together, you expect this thing to be just as significant as The Avengers, if not more, but instead it underperformed. What bad reviews and mega second weekend drops will do. They should have been more wise with how much they put into it with Snyder and Goyer still on board.
Charles Evans
again.
Posting this just for the benefit of those who haven't already seen it, then I'm off to bed. I don't agree with every last jot and tittle of what's here, but it's close enough for government work,
Notice how many of the visuals play into the following themes: obsession, heroism, and perception vs. reality.
Nathaniel Miller
It's comic book people coming to film >you may not be familiar with complicated comic book story telling techniques but there are these things called flashbacks and dream sequences... Yes a lot of them are retarded.
Evan Sanchez
You have absolutely idea what you are talking about. Film Major? If I were you i'd get my money back and start looking for a different school because it's clear that you don't know shit.
