Were these guys the original buttrock band?

Were these guys the original buttrock band?

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forbes.com/sites/ruthblatt/2014/09/06/the-lean-and-mean-led-zeppelin-organization/#6bd09a6a5a2f
web.stargate.net/soundgarden/articles/gschool_5-94.shtml
ultimateclassicrock.com/eddie-van-halen-keyboards/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
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Led Zeppelin was first

yeah the doobie brothers sound so much like creed

IDT you guys know what buttrock is. Buttrock is any terrible lame, corporate rock geared for the radio and based on mindless rock cliches.

no, buttrock is specifically radio hard-rock, especially post grunge.

No. Buttrock is lame. The Doobies were great. Fine musicians. Captain and Me is a fantastic album.

So Led Zeppelin then

Jimmy Page...corporate...try again.

The term "buttrock" actually originated in the 90s to refer to hair metal bands, since by 1993 or so they were absolutely lame and uncool to listen to. It was all like "Yeah, Smashing Pumpkins and Pearl Jam, they sing about deep, serious stuff not like those cheesy buttrockers in Def Leppard." it was a play on how rock radio would have slogans like "WKDF 101. Nothing but rock."

So in fact it goes back before Nickelback, but somehow Sup Forums got the idea that "buttrock"=post grunge because the guys always did a cheap Eddie Vedder impersonation that sounded like they had something lodged up their rectum and were trying to force it out.

No, buttrock is radio hard rock.
Stop trying to redefine things.

How is he not corporate? he was a professional studio musician, who ripped off poor black musicians to make millions for himself.

The band owned a fucking jet.

The term existed well before post-grunge

What fucking year is it? I feel like I'm in middle school arguing about Green Day.
'Successful and an asshole' doesn't mean 'corporate.'
It's called 'yarling,' if you didn't know.

just cuz hes rich doesnt make him "corporate" being butthurt that you cant recognize his brilliance doesnt mean he is "corporate". Do you think Atlantic was telling him what to record?

>'Successful and an asshole' doesn't mean 'corporate.'
Why not? What does it mean?
Playing into paradigms for $$ is pretty corporate.

>Do you think Atlantic was telling him what to record?
Yeah
Do you think they would have been okay with him making an album like Metal Machine Music?

Led Zeppelin aren't corporate rock. No. Corporate rock were bands like the Doobie Brothers and Bread that were assembled by record execs to make watered down, inoffensive radio rock you could play on the sound system at Macy's. Also to appeal to women, in fact my dad said he did remember a lot of girls liked the Doobie Brothers back then.

They would have put out whatever Zeppelin recorded...I suppose once they had their own label you will call that corporate too...

>if it appeals to women, it's corporate
>if it appeals to men, it's not
Did the alt-right enter the thread?

Christgau used to have this "We have met the enemy and the Doobie Brothers are them." attitude in the 70s, but then he also was forced to admit he found some of their songs fun and catchy.

memespeak indicates a lack of understanding.
You are dismissed. go away.

>Also to appeal to women, in fact my dad said he did remember a lot of girls liked the Doobie Brothers back then.
Is this what the average real rawk fan thinks about?

>memespeak
?

Nice non argument though

Basic, boring normalfag women anyway. I mean, there's the non-normal types like my sister that are into Hatebreed, but...I digress.

buttrock is van halen and all the bands that aspired to sound like them in the 80s
kiss is proto-buttrock

>I mean, there's the non-normal types like my sister that are into Hatebreed, but...I digress.

Is this a joke
are you fucking 13

*unless it's a corporate artist specifically designed to catch the demographic trying to avoid the corporate cliches

See: Paramore, Lana Del Rey, etc

>bands like the Doobie Brothers and Bread that were assembled by record execs

Since when were the Doobies "assembled by record execs" ?

It means created by a business, like the fucking Monkees

Gr*mes

Much of their music was dictated by business decisions. They were all professionals in the music industry. Half of the band members were already record producers

Or as I said, Bread which was a band assembled from session musicians. More soft rock, more boring mall music for women.

so, there's nothing wrong with it after all?
except for the fact corporate bands didn't meet romantically in a garage but went to a label without a band perhaps, looking for other people to play with, and the fact they make music that's meant to be enjoyable rather than "challenging"

The corporate rock train kept on a rolling during the 70s, pretty soon you had Styx and REO Speedwagon and UFO and Heart and Foghat and Kansas and Journey...

I'd say mid-decade was the apex of corporate 70s rock, during the intermezzo between the hippie era and the punk era.

yeah it was kind of a weak period

It's pretty easy to pick out 70s corporate rock because they were always the bands who 20 years later were playing greatest hits setlists at the county fair in front of 10 people. Completely irrelevant.

Led Zeppelin started out playing State Fairs.

Ok, right. In the late 70s, pretty much all serious rock fans and certainly anyone in a band were listening to The Clash, The Ramones, The Cars, Elvis Costello, The Pretenders, and whatnot. But you sure as hell didn't hear those bands on the radio. What you did get was an inedible omelette of Doobie Brothers, Styx, REO Speedwagon, and Journey.

It was pretty bad, but AOR programmers played those guys because they had the corporate muscle of Warner Bros and Columbia behind them. That and they sold millions of records and filled football stadiums. I mean, as easy as it is to shit on REO Speedwagon and Boston, the sad truth is that the average teenager in 1978 was listening to those guys and not The Ramones or The Clash. The critics like Robert Christgau all of course crapped on corporate rock, as they rightfully should have.

>FM radio whats that?

are you some 50 year old that stumbled here somehow why are you typing all this crap up

how about you actually educate yourself about Led Zeppelin? Jimmy Page the production for every Zep album out of his own pocket so the record company couldn't tell him what to do. Zeppelin was marketing albums when everyone was marketing singles.

No I'm not 50 but I do know a bit about rock history.

Also I can see you have obvious daddy issues, most likely PTSD from your dad listening to Styx on the local classic rock station while driving you to your Little League games when you were 10.

Correct. Zep pioneered AOR along with Black Sabbath and a few others.

>Much of their music was dictated by business decisions

citation needed

forbes.com/sites/ruthblatt/2014/09/06/the-lean-and-mean-led-zeppelin-organization/#6bd09a6a5a2f

"Corporate Rock" just sounds like a more snide term for arena rock. Van Halen didn't get really polished and formulaic until they became Van Hagar (although you could make an argument that it really started with 1984). Same for Heart who didn't get there until signing with Capitol in the mid-80s. And "Frampton Comes Alive" is only on the list because it sold so well and is widely recognized as the marker for when the "corporate era" of rock first started. I think the name is kind of stupid really; all genres eventually go from wildly innovative to formulaic eventually. That said, you have to add Starship's "Knee Deep in the Hoopla" and "No Protection" to the list.

>Zeppelin was marketing albums when everyone was marketing singles.
They marketed a number of singles
Every band you mentioned had hits as well.

I'm not sure how "corporate rock" would be defined. I mean, my dad was mainly an alternativefag in the 80s but he did admit that More Than A Feeling was p. good.

That article says nothing about their music being "dictated by business decisions"

fail harder.

Bullcrap. Heart were being lumped in with corporate buttrock in the late 70s.

Van Halen: 1984
The Fixx: Reach The Beach
Eric Clapton: Slowhand
Don Henley: Nature of the Beast
AC/DC: Fly On The Wall
Aldo Nova: S/T
Saturday Night Fever Soundtrack
Blondie: Parallel Lines
David Bowie: Let's Dance

Geeze, I could go on forever.

>What is less known is how Led Zeppelin functioned as a business...
Nice damage control buddy

Led Zeppelin never released a single in the UK. They had one top ten single in the US (whole lotta love)

None of these bands or albums are corporate rock except for maybe Aldo Nova. Corporate rock was big commercial 70s bands like Foreigner, Journey, Boston, Styx, REO and Kansas with power ballads and cheesy solos.

Nice goalpost shifting

now compare that to the success of their albums.
I didn't say they didn't release singles (except in the UK)

>now compare that to the success of their albums.
Not needed
>I didn't say they didn't release singles (except in the UK)
The argument is that they didn't market singles. Clearly they did and were successful at it.

Corporate rock was like a prelude to the MTV age in that bands had albums so processed and polished that it took all the soul from the music and made it sound like product stamped out of an assembly line. Even worse, these guys would all play live songs as close to the record as possible (I know the Eagles were particularly notorious for this). Boston were kind of the tip of the iceberg; Tom Scholz polished everything so it was so slick you could eat off of it. It wasn't like "Oh, let's just get in the studio and jam" anymore.

Eventually these 70s schlock rock titans would give way in the 80s to a new generation of commercial schlock rockers like Def Leppard and Poison.

>I could go on forever.


sure...just listening albums doenst actually add anything substantive to the discussion

Why was VH 1984 "corporate" but VH 1 not? Same band, same record label, same producer...the decision to use synths was solely Edward's...just because something sells well doesnt make it corporate.

Do you think Bowie was somehow acquiescing to his corporate overlords by making Lets Dance? forced to recruit SRV to play? Or was he making the album with the people he wanted to make it with at the time?

"corporate rock" is just a cop-out term for a period of music that some dont like...its a memetier insult designed to hide their own ignorance and insecurity

1984 was a lot more commercial and pop-centered, by that point Van Halen had kind of stopped being dangerous and were a pretty safe, harmless pop band for 12 year old girls.

That's unfair really. Frampton, REO, Heart, and Journey all were killer live acts in their prime and did _not_ play everything note for note like the record. And as much as I dislike Journey, Gregg Rollie and Aynsley Dunbar were fantastic musicians who'd worked with rock heavyweights like Clapton, Santana, and Bowie. Boston - maybe the debut was technically perfected as much as possible, but that weighs in more as a part of the albums legend than its aural signature - it has enough shaken feathers in its sound to keep it from being insipidly glossy.

What? I asked for evidence that LZ's music was "dictated" by business decisions- you post an article that provides ZERO evidence that LZ made any music based on business decisions and somehow I am the one doing damage control.

When you get big and famous you have to run things as a business....thats different than making music "dictated by business decisions".

If that were the case they would have never released LZ3 or even In thru the Out Door...

well if you call that successful marketing from a band that almost sold as many albums as the beatles

Calling the first two Van Halen albums corporate rock is just plain dumb. They scared the poop out of parents in the early days. Yes, they did become safe and commercial with 1984 and especially in the Hagar era, but late 70s Van Halen? LOLno.

They like to say Journey was the birth of corporate rock but Boston set the tone and tempo of the genre.

According to the book "Pop Music In The Late 70's" by Don & Jeff Breithaupt, the following singles are represenatives of "Corporate Rock."

More Than A Feeling - Boston (1976)
Feels Like The First Time - Foreigner (1977)
Barracuda - Heart (1977)
Carry On My Wayward Son - Kansas (1977)
Come Sail Away - Styx (1978)
Paradise By Dashboard Light - Meat Loaf (1978)
Hold The Line - Toto (1978)
Lovin', Touchin', Squeezin' - Journey (1979)
Heartbreaker - Pat Benatar (1979)
Hold On - Triumph (1979)

Citation needed.

I do think that the whole concept of "corporate rock" stands on very shaky logical ground. I mean, what is always posited as the ultimate "corporate rock" band? Boston. Where was Boston's first album made? Tom Scholz's basement. Not "corporate rock" by a longshot. If Scholz's muse had led him more in the direction of the Pretenders or the Clash, it'd be rightfully recognized as the triumph of DIY, and the ultimate evidence that one doesn't need any "corporation" to make great rock.

Let's be honest that the term "corporate rock" was a derogatory term invented by smug hipster critics like Christgau to crap on anything that wasn't their pwecious Clash/Devo/Ramones. This is not to deny that the popular music of the late 70's was often formulaic and shallow, or that the underground music of the day was lively and fresh and all that. But I think it's inescapable that what really made this rock "corporate" was the fact that it was successful, not because it was in any way devised in accordance with "corporate" interests.

>LZ3
You mean they wouldn't have put the obvious hit single on the album (Immigrant Song)
>In thru the Out Door
All of My love was purposely created to be a hit single.

>Hiro, our bass player at the time, hated that song. He thought it was obnoxious butt rock, a total rock'n'roll cliche. We tried to explain to him that the song was making fun of butt rock. We were fed up with bands beating about the bush, just using euphemisms and metaphors for the sex act. We thought we'll ditch all the euphemisms and say what all the disco dance bands had been trying to say for a decade. We were simply trying to kick all the lame-ass rock'n'roll and dance music of the '80s and late '70s in the butt. It's a parody of the whole genre of stupid rock."
- Kim Thyll of Soundgarden, May 1994
web.stargate.net/soundgarden/articles/gschool_5-94.shtml

>1984 was a lot more commercial and pop-centered,

Thats a false narrative- you say that only because it sold and they had a hit with keyboards instead of guitar driven....

That 12 yr old girls supposedly liked it was not the point nor the goal nor was the content of the album decided by the record company...take away the 2 keyboard songs and any of the others could have easily fit on any previous VH album indeed some of the songs dated back to their earliest days.


VH had "pop-centered" songs on all their albums- thats what was part of their appeal - catchy riffs with pleasant vocal harmonies. Their recipe for success never changed...its doesnt become "corporate" just because it sold 17 Million copies

70's corporate rock:
Styx
Journey
Foreigner
Boston

80's Corporate Rock:
Bon Jovi
Night Ranger
Poison

90's Corporate Rock:
Hootie and the Blowfish

00's corporate Rock:
3 Doors Down
Nickelback

The term was coined because bands played music that the records corporations loved as they sold records. Its music that people loved, but critics hated, because as Slinky said, it was safe and melodic.

The funny thing is guys in these bands are more talented musicians and vocalists than most of their "edgy" counterparts. Neil Schon of Journey (probably the kings of corporate rock), is more talented than any guitarist out there today and more so than just about everyone back then. He and others just chose to play down their strengths and focus on their songwriting. Its more difficult to write a great pop song that stands the test of time like Boston's "More Than A Feeling" or 3DD's "Kryptonite" than it is to write some pretentious Pretenders or White Stripes song.

>Thats a false narrative- you say that only because it sold and they had a hit with keyboards instead of guitar driven....
Not him but why do you think the synths--something that was popular at the time--were added in the first place?

Also FWIW, David Lee Roth left the band because he thought they were getting too pop for his taste.

The Doobie Brothers are a pretty good band, honestly. They got a lot of radio play, but Black Water sounded like nothing else on the radio at the time. It's a very unique song, as far as 70s mega hits go.

Obviously, OP just heard China Grove on the radio a few times and didn't even bother listening to their discography. Jeff "The Skunk" Baxter is an absolute fucking monster, as anyone who ever listened to early Steely Dan knows very well.

They're a pretty cool band honestly. This is like saying Blue Oyster Cult is radio rock because they had a couple of hits.

KURT COBAIN STOLE THE RIFF FROM "MORE THAN A FEELING" AND USED IT IN SMELLS LIKE TEEN SPIRIT, YOU FOOLS.

>co-opting corporate rock? What's that?

...

Steely Dan were the most rampant perfectionists and yet Aja is the greatest album of all time

deciding to release the only song that was appropriate for a single is not the same as making music "dictated" by business decisions.

All of my Love was written by Plant and JPJones as a tribute to Plants dead son...I fail to see how that is a business decision

You cant seem to get out of the way of your own failed logic.

>deciding to release the only song that was appropriate for a single is not the same as making music "dictated" by business decisions.
But creating it specifically to be a hit, is.
>All of my Love was written by Plant and JPJones as a tribute to Plants dead son...I fail to see how that is a business decision
Falling for business propaganda PR I see.

Steely Dan went all Beatles mode and gave up touring to perfect their albums.

It was Edwards decision- he had been playing keyboard all his life, wrote a lot of his music on keyboards and had wanted to incorporate them into the music for some time but DLR was against it. Although- the 3 previous VH albums all had keyboard on them as well just not has prominent.

They were not used on 1984 to appease the record company or to sell more records. They were used because - musically- EVH wanted them. In fact, the record company was against it

ultimateclassicrock.com/eddie-van-halen-keyboards/

Bands like Doobie Brothers and Boston are the bands everyone loves to shit on but when someone plays "China Grove" on the jukebox in a bar, you all start unconsciously bopping your heads.

You didn't answer my question, did you?

>82 posts
>14 IPs

>No discussion allowed

The Doobies had a pretty good bassist, other than that...

>Falling for business propaganda PR I see.

just making up a narrative to avoid admitting your wrong is pleb-tier. Please provide the quote where Plant says he wrote All of my love based on a business decision.

I did. If you cant read for comprehension thats on you.

Edward included keyboards because he liked them.

>just making up a narrative
Did you notice the working title of the song was The Hook?

What do you think that means?

>What do you think that means?

His dead son was a fan of Peter Pan.

Please provide the quote where Plant's son says he was a fan of Peter Pan.
>because he wanted to!
Isn't a valid answer. Try again.
>Edward included keyboards because he liked them.
And it surely was a coincidence that it was insanely popular at the time, made the music more marketable to a broader audience, and also loved by a generation of teenagers!

How convenient!

But they didnt end up playing state fairs.

Yeah they didn't become corporate, they always were.

Robert Plant is instead playing all the LZ hits in the South American Lollapalooza.

>Please provide the quote where Plant's son says he was a fan of Peter Pan.

So, in other words, you have no evidence that All of My Love was written as a business decision and not a heartfelt tribute to his dead son. Got it.


>Isn't a valid answer.

absolutely it is...he had complete control of his music and made the music he wanted. That others happen to like it is just a coincidence.

you are still failing.

Haha you are the same guy defending All of My Love and the synths on VH?

Are you some weird uncle? Are you balding and a bit overweight? How's your air guitar coming?

>le poor black musicians waahh
fucking lmao

As is standard for plebs- when losing the argument resort to logical fallacies:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

It's not a logical fallacy because I wasn't making an argument. I was just asking if you are an overweight, balding, air-guitaring weird uncle.

I called it didn't i?