GoT: Holdor

I think this is very important but it's not clear to me.

Did he hold the door on his own or was Bran controlling him?

Bran was controlling him in the present through the past. Bran caused Hodors seizure in the past a a result of him warging him in the future.

Hodor is a Tyler Durden-esque projection of Bran's repressed psyche. He lost the use of his legs but not his mind, so he fantasises about being an able-bodied retard.

I get that but who was holding the door? Present Bran or Present Hodor?

the fucking hamfisted way they played this reveal out was disgusting. No one would fucking repeat "hold the door, hold the door, hold the door, hold the door" over and over again in that situation... unless it's to make sure the stupid as fuck audience knows it's meant to be hodor's name origin.

Past Bran

This show is really getting terrible.

I never understood the hatred towards the writers, now I do. Did they honestly think this was clever? To me it just seemed so forced and unnecessary. They took a cool character's gimmick and made it overly meaningful, taking away its charm. This plot development adds nothing that wouldn't be there if Bran just warged normally and Hodor died. The fact that Bran is responsible for his deficit is like 'okay, and? well we're damn lucky that deficit existed because otherwise Bran would've died long ago'.

HOLD UP
HOLD UP
HOL UP


>mfw black people get warged in every day

WTF I hate white people now

This was straight from gurm himself, bookfriend

The post-show interview with D&D confirms "Hold the door" is straight from GRRM. The context will probably be different, but it probably involves Bran fucking with his brain by warging. Bran and Meera outrunning an army of wights because Hodor blocked a door doesn't seem very GRRM-esque to me, though. Hopefully it'll make more sense in the book.

As for your question, I dunno. I guess it is Bran holding the door. But because he's warging into present-Hodor while still in the past, that fucks up past-Hodor, forming a closed loop.

So in that sense, Hodor holding the door isn't some brave, self-sacrificial thing. It's Bran controlling him, and essentially murder. That actually is pretty GRRM-esque, as the books repeatedly mention that warging into humans is a really shitty thing to do but Bran just keeps doing it. There has to be a price, namely Hodor's mind and his life.

why do u think he hasn't been writing for so long? It turns out he was good at writing a medieval political thriller -- not so good at writing a fantasy novel.

The answer I was looking for, cheers

The thing that really doesn't make sense is why Bran and Bloodraven were in past-Winterfell in the first place. Just the previous scene is Bloodraven telling Bran to GTFO because he's been marked by Night's King. Also, it doesn't seem like there's anything particularly important going on in past-Winterfell at the moment, just young Eddard doing some shit. So what were they doing? Did Bloodraven fucking know that Bran had to fuck up Hodor at that specific time? I really hope not.

I think he had to expedite the training. Sort of like throwing someone in the pool to force them to swim, if that makes sense to you

I've never read the books.

Bad writing is bad writing. I didn't even cover everything stupid about it in that post:

We've covered the fact that it doesn't need an origin story. I also said it detracted from the character's charm, here's why: The whole appeal of the catchphrase is a distinct lack of meaning. Giving it meaning takes away that appeal.

The worst part of it though? There has always been a scar on Hodor's head, right on his temple In fact, in an interview Kristian Nairn said they had to do a take ENTIRELY because they forgot to add the scar in makeup. Wow, what attention to detail, right? Goddamn, people should be rewarded for such an effort.

"HUURR NOOOO" Say the writers as THEY COMPLETELY EXTINGUISH the idea that Hodor has expressive aphasia due to brain damage.

Seriously: They had already written a reason for 'HODOR' into the show, but now they're like 'oh, that scar right where his Broca's area would be? Yeah, completely meaningless'.

>Broca's area

Greetings.

Keep in mind the Kingsmoot is straight from gurm as well, and that was great in the books, utterly mediocre in the show.

>About a third to a half of individuals with autism do not develop enough natural speech to meet their daily communication needs.

>bad writing

Talking about bad writing, wouldnt it be considered bad writing by any literary standard to create a likeable character like Benjen Stark and then have him just disappear in the way that no one even remembers him. And then one day he appears and everyone is like "Oh, that guy". It wont have any impact because its been too long. Its not even a literary technique, it just looks like the writer actually forgot about a character.

Thoughts?

Well the series was supposed to be a trilogy when GRRM started, with Winds being the last book

A likeable character from the first book making a surprise return in the third is fine. The way the series has gone, yeah, it's a little stretched out

Dude, it's been shit for seasons now. Forget about it.

So we are supposed to believe he actually held the door long enough for them to go away to safety? There were like thousands of others there

>getting this upset over your tv shows

He held the door
>Hodor

Get it?

he's fucking huge nigga

Hodor was so fucking cowardly and retarded that Meera absolutely would have continued shouting at him.

Of course, that is also the reason why I didn't care for the character and the scene fell entirely flat, but Meera's shouting was justified.

The others are skin and bone,the buff leader dudes have the strength and power.

He was a bit messed up before bran did his magic,you can see mark on his right temple where something his him.

...

future bran time travelling in the past is more accurate

they are wights you morons. the other refers to WW.

No one cares.

having a meaning in use =! having an origin

when hodor said hodor all the time it was simply the only thing he could say and nobody knew of any meaning behind the word in the instances that he used it because it was simply a verbal reaction to things so it was still catchphrase with a distinct lack of meaning as you put it

I dooooooooooooooooo

In the first vision, Hodor didn't have a scar on his face. In the final vision, he clearly has a red mark on his face from being kicked by a horse.

It makes sense when you realize that everything that's happening has already happened so he needed to be there so he can warg into Wylis in the past in that exact moment and become Hodor

He wasnt being controlled in the end.

Way to pull one of the most convoluted paradoxes out of thin air. Terminator has made 5 movies and they still haven't unfucked what they did in the first one. Fuck this hamfisted predestination time travel bullshit.

This

Thanks man

Obviously the fact that Bran is responsible for what happened would cause him to understand the weight of his powers better.

Or maybe it is a statement about the nature of reality in the Game of Thrones world. Certainly it lacks straightforward linearity.

One also wonders how much of reality is shaped by folks like Bran and the raven - Has the raven been doing this? It's clear that he knew it was possible.

The idea that you think it's meaningless just speaks to your limited imagination.

>dude just turn your brain off. Bro.

But here you are still and you will still be here in 2 years. I've no doubt you just enjoy 'the banter'.

GREAT SCOTT! Bran we have to go back. BACK TO THE FUTURE!

Are they going to mention Varys's lack of cock every episode? Is it going to be a important plot point?

The Red Priestess actually has it somewhere and she will use it to perform some magic act. Possibly to kill Jamie.

Screencap this.

They literally just said it was thrown into the fire.

Hodor got the color back in his eyes as he was holding the door. He wasn't being warged at that moment, it was all him. He's spent his whole life knowing he'd die holding the door and when the time came he manned up

There is no paradox (at this time). Everything that has happened will still happen, we are simply watching it happen.

HAHA EVERYTHING IS SHIT
I HATE THIS SHOW EVERYONE ITS SHIT
OMG I HATE IT SO MUCH HOW SHIT IS IT

HAHA

Bloodraven can't leave: he's become a part of the tree. The fact that Bran fucked up and let the Walkers in meant that BR had to move up the timetable: the fact that they were "viewing" Winterfell is irrelevant, they simply both needed to be "in" the Weirwood network so that he could be uploading himself into Bran. That;s not speculation, that's what D&D actually said is happening in the "Behind the Episode" segment.

>"It's time for you to become me"

He didn't mean that figuratively.

WAIT WHAT? I'm so confused...

You think they know everything?
She said they can make mistakes.

Also, it would be just a black version then, grilled.

Varys also said this when he told his story to Tyrion seasons ago

this happened in front of him

Kind of, yeah. Bran was stuck in the past so he couldn't actually warg into Hodor in the present, but he WAS able to "program" Hodor to hold the door. Doing so fucked him up, because Bran doesn't really know what he's doing, but when the time came to hold the door the programming from his past kicked in and he held the goddamn door.

Do you think he always speaks the truth?

What is confusing you?

Detracts from his charm? I would be ok with that argument if the charm hadn't been replaced by a large dose of sorrow, which it was. There's still a lot emotion tied to Hodor and his name, it just make not be silly anymore.

I think there is literally no reason to doubt the story told by varys and then repeated by the priestess (and confirmed again by varys's reaction)

Yes, actually.
Varys is the most trustworthy character in the entire series. It's actually kind of a running joke (his name is even based on the latin root for "truth") He is deceptive as fuck, but not because he lies.

He holds the door for three days in the books.

It was just some dumb tv thing.

interesting point... i am thinking now when he could have lied... but i don#t remember a lie from him..
maybe when he told aerys its save to open the gates of kingslanding to tywins army in roberts rebellion?

He lied when he said his dick was cut off.
Its a ruse im telling you.

It will be one of the big reveals of this or next season.

The scene with that boys dick was pre-foreshadowing

He told Aerys that it was NOT safe

>The scene with that boys dick was pre-foreshadowing

it all make sense now, you won the game of thrones

yeah you right, i just read it again...
thx for clearing my mind

but what is the prize?

i think no one ever addressed this issue.
what good is it when someone actually wins the game of thrones?

probably they will feel empty and void, and just fall into depression and kill themselves eventually.

...

wasn't it meera who told him to 'hold the door' though?

hodor's eyes stopped being Warg White in the future, his eyes never went wargy in the past, and in the present meera refers to hodor as hodor, not bran. So was bran warging hodor to hold the door, or was hodor holding the door?

bran warged the door

>you
did you read OP's post?

k

It's fucking hilarious how people parrot "IT WAS GRMS IDEA!!!!" as if that makes it any less terrible.

If GRRM puts that in the books and he doesnt make the execution much better than it was in the show, then it was shit.

bran warged into the wights and made them go slightly slower than usual to make sure hodor's death was slow and painful

The only reason for the scar is because the actor has a face tattoo

I think somewhere in the book they mentioned that he kept hitting his head on things when because he was tall

he's fucking 10
wat

In the inside the episode they mention that bloodraven is basically uploading everything he can in that moment

>baaaaaaaaaw my meme character died

hodor has one

jesus christ why the fuck did he do this

why does anyone do anything?

Why do they keep saying Varys has no cock?

I can only suspect this is building up to him revealing that he actually has his cock. As he shoves it down Tyrion's throat

I don't understand a fucking thing that is going on. This show is a mess.

heh

That was pycelle who advised to open the gate

This wasn't from the books?

Must suck if the only worthwhile thing you do in your entire life is hold a door shut before dying.

Most characters POV have passed the books at this point

Because spending your life on an anonymous imageboard is so much better right?

Still made more of a difference than Waymar Royce.

Because the ritual in which it was cut off seems to be important, as it has been mentioned at length twice now.

> Wanting a flat death of a tertiary character killed by one dimensionl evil with no repercussions
Walda, Osha, Balon, Ariane, Doran, Areo, and Barristan Selmy aren't enough?

> overly meaningful
Wew lad

my brother has only watched up to episode 2 of this season thus far, he and some other friends thought they might be able to wait until the next book so they don't have great moments like HOLD THE DOOR hacked to pieces like D&D

i'm close to telling him he might to right to wait, it will be interesting to see how this is done in the book, might make more sense

also the origin of the white walkers, they better clear that shit up with flashbacks - they basically revealed and handwaved it in this episode CHILDREN OF THE FOREST ARE DEAD NOW LOL, DEAD END ON THIS IMPORTANT PLOT POINT

>only worthwhile

>not leaving the side of the heir to Winterfell for years, protecting him, bleeding for him, killing for him, literally carrying him miles to a destination that you know you will end up dying at

>only worthwhile

I mean, the show explicitly shows them not getting away, so maybe wait and see next ep?

Sam somehow got away from a similar army in S2.

They've mentioned Stannis way too many times now, he is obviously alive.

It was pretty fucking stupid how nonchalant they were about the WW origin.

>"And over here is where we make the White Walkers, you can see how much love and affection goes into each one!"

The same way as every S2/3 episode included a Brienne rape joke and S1 Imp jokes, yes.