>voting not mandatory
>electoral college means some votes are more valid than others and that the candidate with most votes DOES NOT NECESARILY WINS
>"lobbying" means bribing is legal
why do you call that shitfest a democracy? like, seriously, the US LITERALLY is the worst democracy ever made.
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a lot more votes would not matter if it was popular vote. candidates would just go to the states with highest populations.
the real issue is not having a ranking voting system to give independents a real chance and better representation for all.
agree with lobbying. its ridiculous.
not sure how mandatory voting would turn out. lots of politically uninterested and uneducated voters? well i guess we already saw that with trump.
>a lot more votes would not matter if it was popular vote. candidates would just go to the states with highest populations.
but thats bullshit
if you have a certain population thats making a choice, the only true expression of what that the majority of those people want is counting vote for vote. Anything other than that is unbalanced.
>not sure how mandatory voting would turn out. lots of politically uninterested and uneducated voters? well i guess we already saw that with trump.
it still happens anyway
it is a culture. While us sells itself as a culture of democracy, most people dont give a fuck
other countries have mandatory democracy, becaues the people truly want to influence the system.
America is a symbol of democracy and freedom as ronnie coleman is a symbol of ballet dancing
First off, American isn't a democracy. It's a republic.
Second, the electoral college is there so the president has to go to other states and pander to them, in lay mans terms.
Here's a video on the electoral college explained : youtube.com
both candidates would just appeal to california and as few states possible. ec forces them to appeal all over. this way a faction cannot win and leave the rest of the country in the dust. the problem with ec right now is partison gerrymandering
so what if it happens already? well theres a rapist somewhere in america so i should rape bc im there too? no, uneducated and uninterested voters voting is either good or bad. if you wanna make an argument, support a side. im saying its bad bc they dont understand what theyre voting for and dont care about context/potential consequences as a whole. why would you want dumb people to have more of a say?
being forced to vote for 1 of 2 candidates isnt a democracy. which is why we need ranked voting.
anyway, i have not met a single american who is comfortable with their voting system yet you keep supporting it, no one even comes close to defying the establish order
i didnt support it, i said we need ranked voting. what i said was that the ec is fine as a concept and we need to deal with partisan gerrymandering.
we dont need to defy the established order. the system is pretty good, it just needs improvements.
>i didnt support it,
i know, thats what amazes me about it, nobody likes it yet you eat it up like pigs eating shit every year
>i didnt support it
>the system is pretty good,
so you think that the way america works is good, that the leaders the system produced were good? at least some of them?
what would you like me to do?
the system is pretty good. like you said, lobbying is a really bad issue. i would get rid of it if i could.
its sad that money is so effective at gaining political power. but there are a few good candidates. no one votes for them.
even if a really good candidate ran, there is going to be staunch opposition bc america is so diverse. thats a whole new problem.
the potential for real change exists but the people arent voting for it
in concrete, what presidents do you agree with. which ones you think they were good leaders?
obama was a great president. congress cockblocked him for 8 years and insurance companies fucked up obamacare. bernie is the only candidate trying to separate money and political power.
theres no candidate i fully agree with. id like to see a progressive candidate who offers accountability of himself, has a real vision for the future, and proves they want money out of politics. bernie is the closest.
>obama
>bernie
so youre a socialist
>obamacare
so you think everyone should have access to quality healthcare no matter their income?
of these two candidates, do you think one of them isnt shit?
all workers should be able to go to the hospital and not worry about the bill. this includes any contributing worker even the cashiers of the country.
i dont fully agree with either like i said. i dont like the lefts env, energy or immigration policies. but by far, bernie has the most integrity of any modern candidate.
in any context but America those men are centrists
>2016 years of earth existing
>Trump is losing so the whole system is stupid
G
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also this. neither bernie nor obama is a socialist.
It's more of a republic. Thinking about these things makes me angry but alas I have not the money nor the power to change it. I'm but a gear in this wretched machine. A riot sounds nice but would only price to hurt the people not the system. We are at a stale mate.
I agree. Have you considered a voluntary society?
Don't be like the rest of these plebs. Read about economics and libertarian philosophy. Most assholes can only think in binary. Democratic or Republican. They have no idea how the system works or why it needs to be dismantled.
>democracy
That's a wierd way of spelling "oligarchy"
libertarians are probably the group with the least understanding of the system and most prone to conspiracies.
Bernie is openly socialist, look it up fag
>It's more of a republic.
The founders knew real democracy doesn't last long.
ive read through his policies, thats not socialism in the way that people who use socialist as an insult imply.
i am actually a socialist tho. if you think "tax the rich more and spend on the poor" is socialism, you are mistaken
The US has been running socialist programs since the 1940s
>all workers should be able to go to the hospital and not worry about the bill. this includes any contributing worker even the cashiers of the country.
cool, i agree with that i jsut wanted to see what you think
frankly i always expect obscene right winged free market pschos from Sup Forums
this to the maximax, US and the SOVIET UNION
didnt compete because of diferent ideas, they competed because they were very much similar
yeah i dont venture into Sup Forums anymore. it used to be pretty leftist but it turned into a rebellion forum for edgy libertarians and conspiracies
He is a democratic socialist you dumb shit, it's totally different. He has had to say it a thousand times
democracy is a lie anyway
Don't forget gerrymandering and the ability of electors in the college to vote for whoever they want in many cases
Because most Americans are overfed, overmedicated, and overly entertained. America is a land of distractions with a school system designed to raise a mass of ignoramuses that can be easily controlled.
Not to mention that what you speak of is, effectively, a revolution. That kind of thing doesn't happen over night. Just look at the Occupy Wall Street movement. It turned into a shitfest with no clearly defined goal. No one took it seriously.
The only way to fight the state is to bring the market to a grinding halt. It would require a takeover of public works (water, sewage, electricity, police, emergency services, etc.) to ensure that society keeps moving along with the majority of the population agreeing to (1) not go to work, (2) peacefully protest, and (3) do 1 and 2 in a highly organized but decentralized manner.
A civil war is more likely to take place than peaceful revolution and there are several different types of people you have to think of.
Type A: Will die supporting the government. Cannot be reasoned with at all.
Type B: Can be taught a more Libertarian perspective and, in general, wants maximum individual freedom.
Type B1: Like B but won't risk dying. Will lie down if told to.
Type B2: Will fight to the bloody bitter end.
Type C: Completely self-interested. Will only help if he can get something out of it like money.
Most sane people would like a peaceful revolution but it won't happen. Either the revolution happens or we become a police state. There is no inbetween and rallying the troops isn't as easy as you think.
The only way to change the voting system is a constitutional amendment, which would be incredibly hard to achieve. At best, getting individual states to stop doing winner take all with their electoral votes is the change we could realistically get.
Peaceful revolution will never work. The only way the system will fall is by force.
well sure, whatever. But the fact that trump, a retarded businesman with no experience in politics whatsoever almost wins, is a good sign that many people know they want something different, they just dont know what
aaaand cue the edgy libertarians
/thread
Not even close, comrade.
what do you propose, edgy college teen that read half a che guevara book?
The comitee of the revolution is listening
Ad homeneim, cute. Perhaps you should read a book between shitposts.
...
The problem with that is that socialized medicine means doctors are often paid shit. I've spoken with many that live in countries with socialized medicine and they often tell me that its shit. They have to wait months to get looked at whereas in America they'd be seen right away even though they have to pay.
The thing about socialism is that it doesn't create an incentive for hard work and personal responsibility. No matter how badly you've fucked up your life you have all this free shit to look forward to.
The real issue is the Federal Reserve. Audit them along with the IRS, get the power back to the treasury, and see what has happened to America's money. More likely than not the Fed will be dissolved never to come back and the big bankers will have a lot of explaining to do.
From there we get back to sound money based on scarce commodities like gold and crude oil. Fiat money is trash.
Once that's accomplished you can fix the welfare system and balance the budget because you're using money that isn't backed by bullshit.
That's not really a valid argument its just a sweeping generalization. Ignored.
i seriously legit dead serious want to hear your proposals.
Also calm your tits fucking leftists, it was a joke please dont send me to the gulag.
Dude the Soviet Union collapsed for a reason.
Because they went full retard (aka communist) they didn't rely on the market for price signals. This proved to be disastrous.
At one point they built tons of houses that no one could live in. Why? No roofing nails. Why no roofing nails? Because they didn't have supply and demand to guide them. They created a huge monolith of a state for muh glorious people's union of workers in an attempt to plan all economic actvities. It was fucking disastrous. The US and the Soviet Union were polar opposites.
You sound like you know a lot about socialism, but you really don't.
>incentive for hard work
Implying real professionals work for the money
the pay must be fair, but if you go to college to become a millonaire then u r doing it wrong
the problem is that people who believe in free market think that peopel really live their lives for money.
there are some poor shitholes of countries like cuba or argentina that have a shitty economy, shittly paid doctors but the medical quality is top tier, mainly cause they love what they do.
I agree, they shouldnt earn such low wages, but theyshouldnt be millonaires either.
When you start thinking life is about having lot s of money you have commited your first capitalism mistake in understanding the reality of the huma n condition
>Dude the Soviet Union collapsed for a reason.
yes, it lost an economical war with the us
>The US and the Soviet Union were polar opposites.
you think there is a free market in the us? everything that happens since the beggining of its history is closely controlled by the goverment and a couple of corporations.
oh my, youve got a ton of reading to do
Actually what I proposed was not because of communist leanings. I can see how it sounded that way but do you have a better way to get the attention of the state? Look at the public school system! Its in fucking shambles with this common core bullshit they're trying to push.
The minimum wage has been raised to the point that companies are automating away jobs that people can do. I'm saying that change has to happen but its going to take something big.
I would never want the market to disappear. The market is the only fair system we have! But if we stop being slaves to these fucking plutocrats then we can take back the country that they're fucking up.
We need to bring the whole system to a grinding halt in order to fix it. It can be done peacefully but you'd need majority cooperation. I would rather see American government take a different turn. Concentrate the power and responsibility at the top with the Federal government replaced by treaties between states. No state should grow larger than a minarchy with some really basic taxpayer funded programs.
Also, I loathe Che Guevarra. He was nothing but a delusional murderer.
medicaid is already highly efficient. a medicaid for all single payer would not require long wait times.
if you are talking canada, then yes but socialized europeans do not have those wait times.
im not really familiar with traditional socialism but i will tell you my plan. my plan wouldb e to inplement nonprofit businesses alongside current ones. essentially this means building companies without owners. the owners rarely do work yet they get the highest paychecks. the only real thing they have to do is decisionmaking which is better off left to a diligent worker or manager.
what this would allow is paying a living wage and keeping the price/quality of product competitive. americans could choose from the shelf the american made non profit product or the foreign made ceo profit item. the profits from the nonprofit could go into funding education, healthcare, etc.
no where in my plan is the lack to get paid more for doing more work. more work should get rewarded with more pay.
you tell me if that is socialism
what evidence is there that the fed is corrupt? the fed just prints/holds money. it doesnt give it out on a whim.
>delusional murderer.
born to a high class family he could have lived a life of total luxury. Top tier doctor artist and philosopher.
Spend most of his life fighting in the jungle in favour of the poor all over the world.
yeaah sounds like a piece of shit, im sure you could do better than him
The electoral college was set up because the founders feared the populace was too stupid to elect their president. They were right.
THE SHIT IS SIMPLE:
1) PROGRESSIVE TAXES,
TAX THE RICHEST MORE, MUCH MORE. THIS IS SOMETHIGN ALL POORS SHOULD AGREE. WHY THE FUCK DO YOU NOT DO ANYTHING IN YOUR POWER TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN. YOU ARE POOR YOU WILL ALWAYS BE
2)NO VITAL SYSTEM LEFT TO THE MARKET.
SURE, THE MARKET CAN REGULATE LUXURY CARS AND MCDONALDS. BUT VITAL THINGS LIKE EDUCATION AND HEALTH SHOULD BE ABSO-FUCKING-GUARANTEED FOR EVERYONE.
YOURE ALIVE?YOURE A HUMAN?, YOU HAVE GOD TIER EDUCATION AND HEALTH, END OF DISCUSSION
can you imagine what kind of super gigantic potency of a country we could achieve with this?
>the populace was too stupid to elect their president.
what a bullshit paternalist piece of shit
1) the founding fathers werent democratic
2)that means that no one should ever have the right to call america democratic and the americnans should be shot in the ball if they even THINK of uttering that word which stands for something great which they dont know at all
democracy means participation of the people
what the people want the people know
no one can know better than the people what they want
theres no "people too stupid to govern themselves"
theres just "people too not thinking like we want to vote"
what the people want can be very stupid. what if the people voted to legalize rape or built a giant nuclear power plant in every major city? would you call that a good idea?
dumb voters lead to dumb ideas.
>what if the people voted to legalize rape or built a giant nuclear power plant in every major city? would you call that a good idea?
le ebin hypothetical nonsensense
of course the people wouldnt do that and youll be hard pressed to find a moment in which that really happen
the thing is, if people vote things like TAX THE OBSCENELY RICH, REDUCE TAXES TO THE POOR
then its "lol me living like a king is good for them"
yes obviously i used hyperbole to make the point. but ill use a real example.
most people were in favor of the iraq war. there were some who realized it was a bad idea. turned out to be a really bad idea. the dumb majority lead the way for a dumb war. you are saying thats cool?
>the dumb majority lead the way for a dumb wa
if most people had a say on how things were at home, they wouldnt have to choose wether to go to war.
if people could choose their fate no one will ever consider war.
HEY AMERICANS
STAY HERE WITH GOD TIER EDUCATION AND HEALTHCARE OR GO DIE IN THE MUD?
no brainer
but since all of the other choices come from facism of imposition that choice is taunted
altough i think that the statistics is kind fucked up
i think a real fair election held to determine wether to war irak or not would have resulted in an antiwar