Do you think some people are destine to fail no matter how hard they try?

Do you think some people are destine to fail no matter how hard they try?

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Funny that you bring up Manhattan.
Yes, I do believe that, because I believe in a destiny, of sorts:

The universe operates according to the laws of physics.
People are physical beings.
Thus, people operate according to the laws.
Thus. everyone has a destiny, but not one you might like.
Thus, freewill does not exist.

No, they just have bad luck.

You have no proof of that.

Paul Piffs's work on how first worlders interpret Random Advantage, shows us that people who succeed (by random/arbitrary advantage) believe consistently that they Chose to succeed. It's an after-the-fact belief formation; a self-esteem-boosting delusion.

Obviously the top 1% of wealth of the world, were born into it. Obviously the bottom 1% was born into it. But there's strangeness going on when people think that someone in the 47% category, wasn't born into it also.

Born-into is an old medieval concept, which describes Status entirely.

This is the system that is present today, but unfortunately it is polluted by delusions created by people born with random advantage.

Well, unless you believe in mysticism or extra dimensions or Souls, then we do in fact live in a literally, and scientifically, Deterministic reality construct. Each atom in your body has a history which is Real, and can be traced back to the Beginning of this instance of spacetime.
That's what he's referring to. The physical nature of reality, and the inherently deterministic functionality of that reality.

Perhaps not destined, but I believe some people have been set up since birth to fail, inadvertently.
Some people are stupid fucks
Some people are lazy cunts
Some people are just not made for competition.
Are these things pure choices, or are they inbuilt responses to how they were raised? What's the difference?

What about things like quantum tunneling, and the non deterministic double slit experiment? We do not live in a deterministic universe.

I agree.

Neural circuitry is forged during peak brain formational years in children like a gestalt with the environment. It takes years of professional work to even begin to reforge any of that base circuitry, which predominantly resides in the limbic system (as children adapt to their social system for survival; physically abusive narcissistic parenting styles sets individuals up for decades of issues in adulthood).

>The universe operates according to the laws of physics.
You obviously don't understand what you are saying. The universe doesn't operate on anything. We try to understand the everyday physical phenomenons and try to give meaning to it. We will never be exact, but merely accurate. We gave fundamental theorems to the physical interactions of the universe and that is just it; they are theorems.
Get your 'laws' out of here, pleb.

I'm not the guy you're responding to.
It may be true that the universe is nondeterministic, but what you just said in no way restores free will to us.
You have no control over those quantum phenomena just like you have no control over the fact that water freezes under cold temperature.

So, in your opinion, do we have free will? Is there anything in us that isn't instinctual, inbuilt as children, or simple assessment of what is best for self preservation?

When I say laws, those descriptions are what I'm referring to, you ignorant fuck.
And two things that are known about those "laws": they are regular and fixt, and they are insensitive to the doings of sentient beings.

you increase the pressure on water then you can keep cooling it and it won't freeze. There is control. Everything and anything you will ever do is in your control. Stop being a pushover bitch.

You're avoiding the main point I made.
Just saying that there are more laws to this universe does not mean you can change the laws themselves.
You can only operate within them and be operated upon by them.

Nice! Yeah I do agree those are interesting phenomena, and they impact how 'Deterministic' Reality is, on very small scales. Which doesn't necessarily manifest on our scale of reality.
Reality at the root may be a potentiality field not yet assigned to a particular position, but that doesn't mean the atoms from the chimechanga I ate tonight, have a history other than one going back to the formation of our cosmos.

Free Will may exist, but it doesn't exist through the rules of our particular reality construct. I'm not against Free Will, I just don't see our cosmos physically allowing it. If it does exist, it would have to come from that layer of reality that existed before our big bang, and it can only do so much. It can't turn a poor detroit girl into the president, or change the fact that neural circuitry operates in ways defined by genome-enviornment gestalts over a lifetime.
Studies even demonstrate that gut flora generates cravings for certain food types, which bacteria crave, not us. But we experience it as our own craving. When we eat we feel we chose it, but there is nothing that didn't come from something. Because everything is inherited, no person is a true self-cause unto themselves.

I didn't say that we had free will, only that the state in which the universe is now was not the only option since the beginning of the universe. However, if you look at the double slit experiment, observation changes the outcome, so in a sense, we can change the outcome of these phenomenon. Perhaps the brain exploits this idea, there is no reason the electric impulses in the brain couldn't be the biological equivalent to q-bits.

They are regular, and continue being regular to far reaches in space, but I can guarantee they are not fixed. We only see the relationship and yet to have found a case where the relationship doesn't exist. therefore, it can not be said that it is fixed.

So then the question becomes where do "you" come into the picture?
Do you exist outside your brain?

I feel like the more I've learned about science, the smaller the aperture of Free Will has become. It has narrowed into non-existence.

But, I cannot shift my innate experience of reality, towards a true integration, of the intellectual realization that Free Will is an illusion.

Let's say I'm a Soul animating a physical body in a Deterministic universe, but my Soul allows me to make modifications to this Deterministic world which wouldn't ordinarily be permitted. Even if this were the case, and mind over matter, and Soul-self over ape self is a possibility, it doesn't help. Because I didn't choose my own damn soul to begin with. Up/down left/right the nature of reality, all I see are places where I chose nothing and created nothing.

No, I don't believe I exist outside of the brain. Let's say there are souls, just for the sake of argument. We haven't detected them, and thus we can assume they do not interact with our reality. Therefore, it doesn't really matter if it exists, because it doesn't change anything.

There's always hope. Keep trying. I'm an example of this. Used to be all
Bad luck, but caught some good breaks and now I'm 50/50. All depends on mindset.

Then we are still products of a physical universe.
Come to think of it, is consciousness just an illusion that comes about as result of the complex process like the brain's operation?

Nope.

There are easier ways to become a rich fag than even a shitty mcdonalds part time job that are legal. You just need the internet and research skills. Thats.. It.

>but what about the handicapped

Yeah those guys are fucked. But if you can walk and made it through elementary school you just need to hit the library.

I would say I agree, on the most part. But I would strongly disagree with the idea that something can change on a small level, and not effect the larger reality. The atoms in the chimechanga have that history BECAUSE the small, non deterministic effects.

hmmm, interesting. nice thought.

yeah you're right. a gestalt between the deterministic and the nondeterministic. now i see it.

Personally, I wouldnt say illusion, simply because you cannot refute your own consciousness. For example, if consciousness itself was an illusion, what would the illusion be projected onto, who would it be experienced by?

Consciousness is extremely weird. Look into the part of the brain called the claustrum. Weird shit.

I honestly don't think we will ever know what consciousness really is, because we learn about our self through self reflection, and learn about the outside world through trial and error. I.e, you can never know if someone is in pain by looking at an MRI of their brain, you can only expect it because you have seen it in others. In the end you would have to confirm or deny that pain by asking the subject, which defeats the purpose.

Yes, I see it all around me. People with no goals, and work all day. People that think simple and live simple. No idea of the advantages that come with a capitalist country. In the end, we need these people. It keeps the world moving.

There is one thing I believe very strongly, which is, every logical formula or philosophical ideal should be able to be extrapolated to include the whole universe. How else are we going to find the grand unified theory?

>no goals
Perhaps less grandiose than yours?
>work all day
Perhaps for the goal of simply providing for their family, to continue there 4 billion year old lineage
>think simple, live simple
Ignorance is bliss, my friend

Anyone have any pics similar to
OPs ? Looks cool

...

Yeah. I agree. I didn't generalize very well when i mentioned working all day.

Everyone has their own agenda and values, bro. Your idea of success is not the be all, end all. I like to think of it like this, with everything you believe, someone will believe the opposite, and you are both right in some ways, and wrong in others. Or not right and wrong at all, if they don't exist.

>not listening to Dan Pena

I thought Sup Forums would have made this guy a legend on the boards already.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=RxMYvPy8QwA

Wtf? Are you me? Because i couldn't agree more. But i also dont believe success is the last step to anyones life.

unless youre clinically autistic, no

I'm you from the future, but I shouldn't be telling you this. Keep working on that time machine.

I believe success is both the label and justification for self preservation, and creating the essence of what you value in yourself. If I value a lack of suffering, suicide is a successful path for me. If I value money, having lots is successful to me.

Holy shiieeettttt nigga chill!

Some people?
"A few winners, a whole lot of losers."
Most peoples lives never turned out they wanted or pictured.
That being said, those are the people who are actually doing the work that gets things done. Society wouldn't function without it.

Of course. We have our talents, and we have our desires, and we have our limits. Effort doesn't ultimately determine everything, and in our world, proving yourself capable can occasionally be considered a liability, or your capabilities prove too essential to let you ever advance.

This.

Nope, but I believe in natural selection and that some people are born better than others.

Destiny may exist in a lot of cases, but there is an issue with your definition. An event occurring dependent only on the initial conditions is a mathematical concept that is entirely valid. You have an equation (more generally, a system) and you put in values and it pops out a result.

The universe is full of chaotic events, that depend on their initial conditions but evolve so sensitively to these conditions that it is impossible to predict what the outcome will be, in a given time interval.

We are currently trying to discern the function involved (i.e. the laws of physics) but we have hit a snag.

Quantum physics seems to indicate that the universe microscopically obeys statistical outcomes, regardless of cause-and-effect, hence disbanding determinism.

But on large scales, these statistical phenomena converge to what we call classical systems, where determinism is accepted.

So it seems, that for large objects, like ourselves, destiny may exist because we obey statistically convergent laws. But for an electron, for example, destiny certainly doesn't exist.

Then you may ask the question: if our brains depend on miscroscopic, quantum interactions, then surely they have a randomness to their processes (imbued by quantum physics) that governs the macroscopic actions of the attached body. Thus, a random quantum fluctuation may sometimes cause a large-scale effect, and disband determinism even on that scale (think Schrodinger's cat).

Whether or not these occurrences are common, or happen at all, will answer the question of determinism.

Either way, these events are outwith the conscious control of a human being and hence "free will" is an illusion either way.

Born genetically better, or in better circumstances? (wealthy fam)

Both.