Every time I watch this movie I like it more

Every time I watch this movie I like it more

I saw it in theaters at a midnight showing and came away feeling whelmed, neither over nor under; saw it again in theaters later on and liked it a bit more. Decided to watch it again at home tonight and really liked it.

What are the valid criticisms against it, again? Cause it was really well put-together movie. It felt like Star Wars. The obvious pandering to OT fans didn't bother me. It was a safe retread but was also really fun. I dunno, just felt like a really good Star Wars movie.

mary sue main character, no substance to it whatsoever, completely copies beats from the OT without a single original idea.

a competently made flick made for children.

Nothing in your post was a criticism. Complaining about a Mary Sue is reddity as fuck.

You have the correct opinion user, but you came to the wrong place to share it. The only valid criticism against it are the same criticisms that are valid for both the OT and PT. This place has too many jaded contrarians.

Episode I is a bigger ripoff of IV than VII is anyway. Been thinking of writing a pasta about it.

>The obvious pandering to OT fans didn't bother me

Why not? Death Star III was an atrocious idea. Why is the republic regular army called the resistance? Why did they turn Finn into a buffoon when he landed on Jakku instead of a guy with real turmoil about killing his comrades to escape a greater evil? Why was Rey always so good at everything? Nothing she did felt earned at all.

goddamn, the resistance isn't the republic army you blind dipshit. and Luke was a bigger Mary Sue than Rey anyway.

>mary sue character

I actually did notice this more on repeat viewing than on the first. She can understand and speak to aliens, fixes up junk, knows how to fight, and quickly leans to use the force. I guess as part of the whole film it wasn't too overbearing though, and all of it can be explained (she lives around aliens, is a junker and pilot, is self-sufficient, has connections to the force she doesn't know about)

Speaking of the last point, Han solo definitely knows who she is. There's like 3 different shots of him reacting to her or questions about her that show he knows something.

I guess one criticism I can think of was that it didn't reintroduce anything substantially new in terms of like, also retreading old stuff? Like there were no Y-Wings in the last battle. Shoulda been Y-Wings.

>and Luke was a bigger Mary Sue than Rey anyway.
>Nothing in your post was a criticism. >Complaining about a Mary Sue is reddity as fuck.

I hope for your sake you are actually a paid shill

>Death Star III was an atrocious idea.

Didn't really bother me. They explain that the laser is hyper-lightspeed. When they showed it compared to the original Deathstar it's actually not as big as I remember; it's about the same size as the 2nd death star, so it's not as unreasonable as I remembered.

One thing that did bother me was how easily Phasma turned off the shields. She's super loyal, right? Should've just let them kill her instead of turning them off.

>whelmed

Not since Ash from Army of Darkness has a character been both wise/stupid and courageous/cowardly. Finn is actually a really well written character.

What's OT

I am a different user than OP. And I'm not a shill

>s-shill
Expected response from a bandwagon memer.

>goddamn, the resistance isn't the republic army you blind dipshit

Why not? Where does it say this? Genuine questions because they kind of just say resistance and roll with it to my recollection.

>and Luke was a bigger Mary Sue than Rey anyway.

No. If Luke was like Rey in A New Hope,

>Luke is an expert survivalist living on his own on Tatooine. He isn’t subservient to Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru. He loyally waits for a lost companion to return.

>Luke steals R2-D2 from a Sand Person on a Bantha who has captured the droid. The Sand Person just looks at him and rides away.

>Luke can understand everything R2-D2 says. C-3PO is written out since he’s not needed to translate.

>R2-D2 follows Luke around obediently instead of running away and generally just thinks Luke’s awesome.

>Luke finds Obi-Wan and tells him he’s just a nobody and didn’t even know the Force was real. Obi-Wan hands Luke his father’s saber and then disappears from the movie. No training required.

>Luke experiences a “vision” upon touching the saber for unexplained reasons. Magic lightsaber?

>Luke enters the Cantina and knocks down Ponda Baba and Dr. Evazan with a stick when they threaten him.

>Luke finds the Falcon with only Chewie inside as TIE Fighters start bombing the area. He jumps in and flies it with some wild maneuvers through Beggar’s Canyon while Chewie works the gun port. They destroy the TIEs and return to get Han.

>Chewie is injured while running from Stormtroopers to get to the Falcon and Luke takes over as co-pilot.

>Luke fixes the Falcon’s malfunctions by himself before Han can figure out what to do.

>Han is so impressed with Luke that by the time they get to the remains of Alderaan, he offers Luke a permanent job on his crew.

>same size as the 2nd death star

What? No it isn't.

>Didn't really bother me.

I don't know what to say to you then if you willingly take schlock like that down your throat.

>Phasma

Agreed.

Anything, however shitty you write it can be "explained" in an arbitrary fantasy setting. The point is watching a character who is already perfect at the beginning is boring and meaningless.

>They sneak into a back door on the Death Star unnoticed and somehow instantly find Leia’s cell.

>Luke uses the Jedi Mind Trick on the guards at Leia’s cell to get inside. (First time the Jedi Mind Trick appears in the movie.)

>Leia says Luke is amazing, thanks him and won’t stop talking about wanting to run away with him and devote herself to helping him. Luke is not interested and says he just wants to be friends.

>Han somehow instantly finds the head Stormtrooper Commander and says he’ll kill him if he doesn’t shut down the Death Star’s magnetic shields. The Stormtrooper Commander complies and they throw him in the trash compactor.

>Darth Vader finds the heroes. Luke watches as Han Solo confronts Darth Vader and is killed.

>Luke attacks Darth Vader and holds his own. He drops his saber but he is able to Force grab it back before Vader can. (First time Force grab is seen in the movie.) Vader offers to train Luke. Luke lands several blows on Vader and cuts off his hand while remaining unscathed and Vader collapses in a heap. Suddenly, there is an explosion that ruptures the platform between them and Luke leaves to join Leia, Chewie and R2 back on the Falcon.

>Meanwhile, Wedge leads a small squad to do a bombing run on the Death Star. He easily hits the target without facing much resistance or even thinking about it much and the Death Star blows up.

>Luke officially joins the Rebellion at the end of the movie and is instantly selected to pilot a ship on a vital mission they’ve been waiting years to do. Their best pilot who just blew up the Death Star, Wedge, is passed over.

>same size as the 2nd death star

When I google search the Death Star compared to the Death Star II I get a lot of images like this one

If this is accurate, then it makes the Death Star II as big or bigger than Starkiller, based on the projection the Resistance shows during the briefing

But I don't know if pic related is the actual canon anymore

...

So how close in size are the Death Star I and Ii? Because there are dozens of google images suggesting that Death Star II is about the same size as Starkiller

But again, I don't know the actual canon sizes

Everything from the falcon chase on Jakku to the assault on the Star Killer is pretty bad, but I liked the last act barring the star killer assault by the rebel pilots.

Reminder that if Rey was a man, no one would be complaining

She is a mary sue by the very definition of the term. Sorry the facts trigger you.

Most of the criticisms about the tone being too light and the characters being inconsistent are nonsense. People who argue this don't understand the adventure serial aesthetic that both the original Star Wars and TFA try to cultivate. The one critique that does hold some weight is that it's too similar to the original Star Wars.

>whelmed, neither over nor under
wut

>the characters being inconsistent are nonsense. People who argue this don't understand the adventure serial aesthetic

What does Rey not earning 3/4ths of her actions have to do with the adventure serial aesthetic? This aesthetic doesn't excuse stupid shit like the First Order bombing the trade outpost despite the fact that the map MAY be there.

It is too light, it doesn't take itself seriously at all, you already know Rey is the hero so she doesn't have to have character development to be the hero, you already know the faggot kid will get defeated so he does not have to be shown to be respectable at all. No conflict, no struggle, just self-aware action-adventure movie routine that doesn't even try to be anything other than entertainment. It's ironic(except it's not humorous) Star Wars for post-hipsters.

>Rey not earning 3/4ths of her actions
Both the original Star Wars and TFA treat the Force like a superpower. Like an inherent skill that requires self-knowledge to tap into, but not like an art that needs to be mastered over decades of training. That's prequel bullshit.

>like the First Order bombing the trade outpost despite the fact that the map MAY be there.

You haven't seen many adventure serials if you think think that plot holes weren't part of the experience. They were never internally consistent. Also, you're assuming that the First Order doesn't have the technology to retrieve information from damaged equipment.

The series has always been light. Leia and Han were bantering back and forth right after Leia's entire planet was destroyed and all of her family were killed. You're an adult. You probably saw Star Wars as a kid. Every time you watch the film now you view it through the prism of watching it as a kid, but if you saw A New Hope fresh without the cultural weight it currently carries, you'd think it was just as light-hearted and just as optimistic and fun as TFA is.

>It's unoriginal shlock with shit characters
>T-thats not criticism!!!1

>Episode I is a bigger ripoff of IV than VII is anyway. Been thinking of writing a pasta about it.
Please do.

I don't mind the tone being light but it should walk the fine line to not be blatantly frivolous which I think TFA failed to do. And one thing I've heard often about is how George Lucas was inspired by the "The Hero with A Thousand Faces" which is as far as I understand a very serious look at mythology in relation to pop culture.

>but not like an art that needs to be mastered over decades of training. That's prequel bullshit.

I'm not talking about in-universe shit. I'm talking about how a film flows. Rey didn't earn the jedi mind control scene; she never trained or anything so it wasn't cool when she did it. It was pandering bullshit. Rey didn't earn the ability to pilot the Millennium Falcon like a badass, the script made her pilot it like a badass for entertainment but it didn't feel organic at all. Rey grabbing the lightsaber before Kylo Ren could was crap. Rey out-forcing Kylo Ren was crap. She earned NONE of these moments from a filmmaking standpoint. She didn't struggle for any of these moments so it wasn't cathartic.

>You haven't seen many adventure serials if you think think that plot holes weren't part of the experience

That doesn't stop it at all from being stupid, and I'll gladly call it out on its crap. It's enthralling to me when a character earns their stripes. Luke early on in A New Hope learned about the force a bit from Ben. He trains on the Falcon and channels a bit more of the force. Ben's departing words to Luke are "the force will be with you. Always." When Ben tells him to use the force, and you hear that rising score, that's a fucking earned moment.

Everyone knows that Joseph Campbell inspired Star Wars. I assure you that JJ Abrams also knows that, and that he also took a similar approach to writing TFA. Hence the references to Egyptian, Jewish, and Christian mythology.

>Why not? Where does it say this? Genuine questions because they kind of just say resistance and roll with it to my recollection.

The crawl says the Resistance is just supported by the Republic.

The Resistance is Leia's private military she put together because the Republic is super dismissive of the First Order ever being a legitimate threat and thinks Leia's some paranoid warhawk. There were scenes that would have gotten into this that were deleted because JJ and Simon Pegg were all "POLITICS ARE BAD PREQUEL SHIT", so the only means of getting context for the current status of the galaxy ended up being tie-in books.

>whelmed

They already released the movie in 1977.

Thank you.

>she never trained or anything so it wasn't cool when she did it.

This is the the series of events that occur in nearly every superhero origin story. Someone who's in a conflict gets out of it by learning how to use their powers at the height of said conflict. You don't need a training montage to justify this from a narrative point of view.

>Rey didn't earn the ability to pilot the Millennium Falcon like a badass

Literally the first time we see Luke fly he destroys the Death Star. How is that more earned than Rey, who grew up around ships, knowing how to fly the Falcon?

>New Order nukes the Republic, Republic still doesn't want to get involved.
Face it, faggot, TFA is garbage

>she grew up as a garbageman, so obviously she can drive F1!!!
You're a cuck, Harry

When did they nuke the Republic?

The Falcon is more like a beat-up old jalopy

She sold parts and spent her time inside of old ships. So it's more like someone growing up in mechanic's shop driving better than a few foot soldiers. Also that person happens to have superpowers.

Deleted Scenes were before the nuking. That black girl on the balcony watching the beams coming in was Leia's representative sent over to warn the Senate that these assholes had gone and built a Super Death Star.

It was very clearly made in a hurry.

>she never trained or anything so it wasn't cool when she did it.

It's not about being cool. It's about earning it.

>Someone who's in a conflict gets out of it by learning how to use their powers at the height of said conflict

And it was done like shit in this film.

>You don't need a training montage to justify this from a narrative point of view.

I'm not asking for a training montage did you read my post at all? Proper buildup and foreshadowing is all I want. TFA has none of this for Rey. Nothing. Not like Luke.

>Literally the first time we see Luke fly he destroys the Death Star

Proper foreshadow and buildup. We learn by next year he wants to go to the academy, that his friends have already left. Long before the final battle in A New Hope, we learn that Luke can hit targets as small as 3 meters while piloting so he's nothing to sneeze at.

He destroys the Death Star by utilizing of the force AFTER the proper buildup throughout the film. Not only that, it was ONLY with Han Solo's help.

>How is that more earned than Rey, who grew up around ships, knowing how to fly the Falcon?

Because you live in a junkyard doesn't mean you know how it all works. Side note, the Millennium Falcon can just be started by anyone?

She didn't fix, she sold junk, and mechanics aren't known for being exceptional drivers anyway

It's shit, you know it's shit, I know it's shit, everyone knows it's shit

Lumpawaroo lived on Jakku for ten years and taught Rey about astromech repair and ship maintenance.

Doesn't matter.

The not-Empire Hiroshima'd the Republic and they still stood around with their thumbs up their as so the not-Rebellion could blow up the not-Death Star

Are you retarded or just illiterate?

Being a mechanic (which she's never shown to be) does not make you an executional driver.

You didn't became a star pilot through fucking osmosis

You're reaching so hard. Elements of TFA were foreshadowed throughout, whether it be Rey's force powers, Han's passing, or Kylo Ren's relationship to Han. This veers into the subjective; there's no objective argument for claiming that the foreshadowing in ANH was more subtle and satisfying than it was in TFA.

I mean, one could just as easily claim that Rey fighting those kidnappers off with her staff was a foreshadow of the final battle; or at the very least intended to communicate the notion that she wasn't completely ignorant when it comes to physical combat. The foreshadowing in TFA tended to be less verbal, which is actually an indicator of good writing.

She did fix. She literally fixed BB-8's antenna the first time they met each other. That was the point of that little interaction between them. And depending on whether or not you take extended fiction into consideration, she did take flight lessons.

>and mechanics aren't known for being exceptional drivers anyway

She has superpower and all she did was outmaneuver two foot soldiers.

>her being an OP Mary Sue in the beginning of the flick was forecasting her being a Mary Sue at the end of the flick

How many times did he rape her?

I'm tired of having this discussion tbqh. I want to have it once Episode VIII comes out and we find out about her backstory.

>Han's passing, Kylo Ren's relationship to Han

I'm not even talking about this shit don't shift goal posts.

>there's no objective argument for claiming that the foreshadowing in ANH was more subtle and satisfying than it was in TFA.

I don't care if it was subtle, it was THERE in A New Hope for LUKE and it WAS NOT for REY in TFA.

>I mean, one could just as easily claim that Rey fighting those kidnappers off with her staff was a foreshadow of the final battle

I don't have a problem with the final battle per se. Kylo Ren was already established as being torn between good and bad, he's unsure of himself. Plus he was gutshot.

>The foreshadowing in TFA tended to be less verbal, which is actually an indicator of good writing.

Good writing? Moving away from Rey, what's so good about Kylo Ren killing Max Von Sydow instead of using the force to extract information from his mind about Po Dameron? What's so good writing about Kylo Ren taking Po Dameron back to the ship and mind raping him there than on Jakku? What's so good writing about Rey being a good pilot right out of the gate? What's so good writing about Rey doing the jedi mind trick? Please see these posts:

Genuinely curious why you think this way.

I thought her 'being around ships' was why she was an executional pilot?
>superpowers
So you agree she's a Mary Sue fucking shit?

But it's not a capeshit movie? And even so all of the few capeshit movies i've seen always has the super power portrayed as something ostracizing and they appropriately disguise their identities which offset the whole Mary Sue vibe while this movie doesn't do this.

>her charterer is shit, b-but I'm sure it will be fixed in the next one!!1

It's a shame that you think that these are actually good arguments. They're assertions at best.

Also, you seem to completely misunderstand characters on a fundamental level. Kylo Ren's hubris fucked him on multiple occasions, yet you're asking why he did something rash and stupid? That was his entire character. It's why he let the BB-8 go after he found Rey.

>What's so good writing about Kylo Ren taking Po Dameron back to the ship and mind raping him there than on Jakku?
Dumbest nitpick imaginable. Cops don't take people to interrogation rooms because that would be a waste of time, right?

>What's so good writing about Rey being a good pilot right out of the gate?
Luke started as a great pilot in Episode IV. Anakin started as a 9 year old amazing pilot in Episode I.

>What's so good writing about Rey doing the jedi mind trick?
I've already explained this. This is the critical moment in any superhero narrative where the protagonist discovers their power and uses it against the enemy.

>Dumbest nitpick imaginable. Cops don't take people to interrogation rooms because that would be a waste of time, right?

If cops had force powers it would be a waste of time, yes.

>Luke started as a great pilot in Episode IV. Anakin started as a 9 year old amazing pilot in Episode I.

Luke EARNED IT holy shit.

>I've already explained this. This is the critical moment in any superhero narrative where the protagonist discovers their power and uses it against the enemy.

And it wasn't earned. It was tripe fanservice.

>Also, you seem to completely misunderstand characters on a fundamental level. Kylo Ren's hubris fucked him on multiple occasions, yet you're asking why he did something rash and stupid? That was his entire character. It's why he let the BB-8 go after he found Rey.

That's fair.

>So you agree she's a Mary Sue fucking shit?
The Jedi are supposed to be badass warriors with special magic powers. Are you familiar with Star Wars?

If you don't like how Star Wars has treated the protagonist's magic powers, then why continue to watch the series? Why watch after Luke saved the day by shooting a small missile into a tiny hole while moving at supersonic speeds because of the force?

>Luke EARNED IT

Luke was never shown flying anything until he got in an X-Wing and blew up the Death Star. He only mentioned before that he used to shoot rats on speeders.

>Why watch after Luke saved the day by shooting a small missile into a tiny hole while moving at supersonic speeds because of the force?

Now you're being an idiot on purpose. I already explained this:

>Luke early on in A New Hope learned about the force a bit from Ben. He trains on the Falcon and channels a bit more of the force. Ben's departing words to Luke are "the force will be with you. Always." When Ben tells him to use the force, and you hear that rising score, that's a fucking earned moment.

There's a world of distance between Luke destroying the Death Star and Rey using the jedi mind trick and all of her other actions in the movie.

Kinda like how you had to wait for episode 5 to learn Luke's backstory.

Oh wait.

Yes, and with the help of the force, as established throughout A New Hope that he was learning about it, he managed to do it. Only because of Han shooting Vader and his crew at that. Am I the only one who has seen these fucking movies?

Just because capeshit does it, doesn't make it alright. I think it's clearly established that even though you might be force sensitive, you still have to train to master the force.

>If cops had force powers it would be a waste of time, yes.
Like how does this affect anything? The First Order seems to be concerned with procedure and ceremony; how does interrogating someone in an interrogation room not make sense for them to do? This is such a minor point.

>Luke EARNED IT holy shit.
We never actually see Luke earn it. We hear a line about womp rats and that's it. That could be enough for you, which is fine, but let's not pretend that seeing Luke (who is supposed to be a farm boy) fly for the first time alongside actual trained soldiers isn't jarring.

>And it wasn't earned. It was tripe fanservice.
Alright. That's an assertion not an argument, by the way.

>Starkiller base
>it blows up planets

Shit is dumb. I'm betting the original idea was that it destroyed the system's sun, leaving the people to die a cold, slow and dark death. But then a suit (or J.J.) walked in and said "No, no, that's too smart and we have to have a big laser beam destroying a planet like ANH had."

Literally yes. We didn't know that Luke was Vader's son until Episode V.

The entire operation that destroyed the Death Star was clearly shown as a team effort, and because Luke was taught about the force by Obi Wan Kenobi, and because he had been shown to be a boring farmer boy taking orders from a cool Space rogue and a feisty princess before. See he becomes the Gary Stu, he isn't from the beginning with no character development necessary.

it's fucking terrible

i can understand why the mood can't be made again like the original trilogy though...there are pauses and a more calmed down atmosphere that today's audiences wouldn't understand

>There's a world of distance between Luke destroying the Death Star and Rey using the jedi mind trick

The difference being that Luke's feat came randomly at the end in order to save the day, while Rey's wasn't as convenient.

It uses suns as fuel.

>Like how does this affect anything?

These things in film stand out to me. I have tons of nitpicks like that but this one especially. They just found Po Dameron. Why not take 10 minutes to find out if he has the map and if it's nearby?

>We never actually see Luke earn it. We hear a line about womp rats and that's it. That could be enough for you, which is fine, but let's not pretend that seeing Luke (who is supposed to be a farm boy) fly for the first time alongside actual trained soldiers isn't jarring.

Everything in the film lead up to it. What are you not understanding about this fact?

>Alright. That's an assertion not an argument, by the way.

And it's correct. There isn't a moment as tripe as that in A New Hope.

Luke was doing Force pulls and shit before he trained with Yoda. The notion that you have to train since basically birth is a prequel invention.

Right. Because him being vaders son mattered so much to episode 4

>The difference being that Luke's feat came randomly at the end

How was it random? Luke was told about the force and taught by Ben. The film leads up to this moment.

Rey's was COMPLETELY convenient. Finn and Han should have saved Rey. Rey's known about the force for a day or two? How would she possibly even think of taking control of someone's mind like that?

He did pulls and shit in the second film, after learning about the force. He struggled to do the force pull at that.

"Team effort" i.e. everyone get shot at so I can use my mind powers (let me turn off my targeting computer to make this literally impossible to do without powers) to put a missile into a hole at the right spot.

Please dude. There was no arc to his ability, only his character. Which is perfectly fine. Jedi powers are literally magic.

>How would she possibly even think of taking control of someone's mind like that?

Ummm probably because someone had just tried to do it to her?

Also Rey knew about the force for longer than Luke did, Rey had heard legends of the Jedi and their exploits and is basically established as a bit of a Jedi fangirl

Luke was an ignorant country bumpkin before he found R2 and 3PO

>How was it random? Luke was told about the force and taught by Ben. The film leads up to this moment.
His ability is random. He's supposed to be a farmer, not an accomplished pilot capable of flying alongside trained soldiers. It's completely antithetical to the archetype Lucas was trying to portray with Luke.

>Rey's known about the force for a day or two?
She clearly knew about it for longer. Did you see her reaction when Luke was mentioned? Han didn't tell her what the force was, he only told her that it was real. She was clearly familiar with it through stories.

Not a good post. Not bothering.

Can't do it anymore man. Agreeing to disagree, you simply can't understand the concept of characters earning their stripes.

>you simply can't understand the concept of characters earning their stripes

Luke didn't earn jack shit in ANH though

No it shows him training to use the force on the ship, and space ship battles take real effort I am sure. It also shows him training with Yoda later.
I don't remember TFA particularly well and I don't wish too, but what was anything where Rey was involved ever at least something, resembling a team effort?

shut the fuck up, you cynical piece of shit.

We as an audience see Luke as an equal partner to Han and Leia before he becomes the main hero. So from a narrative perspective he goes through the gauntlet. But we never actually see him acquire the abilities he has by the end. Most of this you could say about Rey, too. She starts off as an equal partner to Finn before she acquires her abilities halfway through the film, but we don't really see her go through the process of acquiring her powers. We assume that her ability to mind trick other people was gained by Kylo Ren performing it on her.

>Rey pilots the Falcon while Finn acts as gunner
>Rey, Finn, Han, Chewie, and Rogue Squadron all cooperate to destroy the Starkiller base

>but what was anything where Rey was involved ever at least something, resembling a team effort?
Literally the first half of the film was her alongside Finn.

>tripfag BTFOing everyone ITT

ayy lmao

But Rey is never equal with the black guy, he tries to save her but gets scolded for trying to do that and then he conveniently gets to sit in the back of the space ship shooting things.

Why did JJ think it was a good idea to remove crucial plot details from the movie? and will there be a special edition just to put this stuff back in?

>things that aren't happening

>special edition

Not on his watch

you wish it wasn't happening.

>Rey, Finn, Han, Chewie, and Rogue Squadron all cooperate to destroy the Starkiller base
You mean they go to rescue Rey but she already rescued herself with the force?

Because nothing "crucial" was cut, JJ understands that exposition and "worldbuilding" for the autistic children should stay on wookiepedia

How was Rey going to get off the planet?