ITT: Arguments for/against the existence of a god?

ITT: Arguments for/against the existence of a god?

Been questioning religion for a few years now. Want to hear both sides before making a decision.

>Civilized Debate

Other urls found in this thread:

samharris.org/blog/item/is-religion-true-in-the-matrix
youtube.com/watch?v=buWKH66OhhQ
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

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Imo it can't really be proven one way or the other with any evidence we have. Personally, I feel like it's unlikely that the universe all came from nothing, but I also know I'm kinda biased since I live in said universe.

Doubt anyone could/will give you info our opinions that'll sway you here, you'll just get a lot of close-minded religious people arguing with hard headed science enthusiasts, it's really up to you. If being religious makes you a happier or more peaceful person, or pushes you to better yourself, go for it. If not, leave it out.

if god was real i would get dubs

DO it.

I know it can't be proven one way or the other I am just looking for the strongest point either side can produce.

True. Sup Forums surprises me sometimes though

I guess the best I can come up with is that life and everything seems complex enough that I would be surprised if there wasn't some sort of creator behind the whole process. (That might be more of an opinion than an argument but idk)

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What religion are you considering OP? Straight Catholicism?

If God was real why aren't I hot

Because adam and eve ate the fruit

There is no evidence for a deity; do not believe until a theist can prove its existence.

That being said, you should always be open to people presenting new data.

Heres the kicker, and the reason why so many people dont believe in god. First you have to believe and have faith that he exists, then comes the proof. But so many people want proof before they commit to belief, but it doesnt work that way, so they end up never finding god.

Come from a Methodist family... Not super strict or anything.

If a god were to exist, he would most certainly be an asshole for allowing the amount of suffering he does.

Youre not hot BECAUSE god is real. Youre just a bad person and gods punishing you for it. By giving you ugly face.

Thanks dad

If God exists, he hates me, so I have nothing to gain either way.

I was religious for 15 years before I questioned aything and the only thing ever remotely good that happened after I prayed was someone returned my stolen iPod in 6th grade. Did I miss something or is it like rare... never really got into the whole god scene

Fuck, this thread again.

Getting real tired of this argument. All this suffering happens because morons like you continue to let it happen while you sit on your ass doing nothing about it.

If god isn't real then how do you explain the Bible??

>I was religious
But did you believe?

I reckon speak to a pastor/priest/minister, they are usually surprisingly accepting and not pushy towards agnostics, and give you reasons religion helps them, rather than shoving religious text up your dickhole

Also, prayer isnt supposed to be about you. Gods not going to give you things. You need to put in the necessary effort. And that doesnt mean going to church every sunday and paying tithe like the majority of the false chirstians do.

Made in the image of God, sho' 'nuff.

Not really, just followed my parents to church like a good christian boy. Probably only ever truly believed when I was really young.

In the same way as the Koran

That's bullshit and you know it.
Suffering happens because the world is a chaotic place and nothing is perfect.
Every person you love will at one point die, and this will cause grief which is suffering built into life.
If there were truly a benevolent creator, suffering would not exist.
The fact that suffering exists means a creator is either evil for making beings that would suffer, unable to control suffering, or non existent.

Can you really choose to believe something though? You either are convinced something is true or not convinced. Just be discerning of what is trustworthy evidence.

>hey user wanna write a story
>sure fellow user
>*they write story*
>people think to themselves "hey! I have ideas for this!"
>they add on to the story
>and here we are.

A regular theory I think about, (not sure if it was ever said before so I can't credit) but imagine someone wrote Harry Potter back then, would modern society be praying to potter? With this said I'm pretty neutral either way. I don't care what you believe in just don't force it upon people, and have a open mind.

Well there you go. Believing in God isnt about going to church and listening to some guy talk your ear off with his own interpretation of Gods message. You need to find your own proof through your own faith.

k Thanks user

Saying you only get proof of something after you commit to believing in it shows that you are just priming yourself for an extreme confirmation bias when examining the "proof" you are getting.

>fuck how do I get those guys to kill for me?
>Tell them they will live forever if they do
>they ain't gonna believe that shit man
>just make it a really good story

I've actually waited years to be given an opportunity to express how I feel about religion. To me, when the bible was written, they used stories to explain what they weren't able to back then. Similar to how the Greeks and Romans used several gods to explain things. Like apollo (?) Who drug the sun across the sky every day.

Kek

You have the wrong perspective, friend. When a friend or family member of mine departs, I am not filled with grief. I do not feel suffering at their loss. I thank God for the part they played in my own life and others, and celebrate that. Again, our suffering is not Gods fault. We are responsible for our own lives. We have free will. So if someone chooses to do evil, well, you must choose to combat him with good. Or just continue to sit there and do nothing but complain. It is your choice, after all.

A thesis needs to be proved, you cannot state it's valid just because you can't disprove it. In the same way i can state that the toothfairy is real, the easter bunny and whatever else i can come up with.
What is fake for sure is the god described in the bible, since that book went under so many changes and modifications. Mary wasn't Virgin until 1600 ad, dozens of gode more Ancient then christ were born on the 25th of december and so on. Religions have so many common themes, they developed absorbing previous religions and it's quite clear to see.

I could make the argument that God is real and Religion doesn't have clue who God is or what God wants.

If a young child falls in a pool and drowns while their parent watches, is it the child's fault? I think not. If an all powerful all benevolent being is supervising us, then we wouldn't be drowning.

According to quantum mechanics, our low-entropy, life-friendly universe is one among an infinite numbers of possibilities.
Imagine our " creator " as a formless and limitless CPU in another dimension, whose motto is " if it's possible, it will happen ".

If all this shit make u depressed , Jesus is fine imo

Non believers make this point a lot. And yes, confirmation bias is real and does effect us, but you need to learn how to sift through the BS and find what is real. You have to understand that not everything you see is a message from God. People do get fanatical sometimes when they fall victim to confirmation bias.

>while their parent watches
Well why the fuck werent they doing something about it?

Well, you are saying that you receive proof if you believe. I am unaware of any believer able to share any proof they were ever given. If their "proof" can not be verified by a third party can it really be considered proof? If I saw something that appeared magical I would assume its more than likely a fluke in my brain if it couldn't be verified by someone else.

if there is a higher power, it probably doesn't care about what you eat, read, fuck, or do in life

You're missing the core concept here.

If you create a being which will without a doubt experience pain and suffering you are not benevolent because you have just created pain and suffering.

If god were real and good life would be pure pleasure, there would be no need to live and we would all just start in heaven.

I mean if you can make heaven why send people to suffer on earth before eternal pleasure?

that's the whole fucking point

The bible doesnt say god is all benevelant. If youve read it, youd see that he tells his prophets to wipe out entire towns and cities. Youve heard the phrase the road to hell is paved with good intentions? Some believers tout the Lord as a peace-loving God. Not the case. But that doesnt mean hes not worthy of our praise.

An atheist sailor who is sailing his boat on a normal day, it gets windy at night, he's still in the middle of the sea, he can't get help, he can do nothing at this point. Does he just give up and stand and wait for his boat to sink? No, he starts praying, praying for something superficial out of his hand, he doesn't know what is he praying to but he still prays. That is God.

If youre saying the parent let that happen, then its because they are choosing to be evil. So what point are you trying to make? God doesnt exist because people die? Grow up.

We'll it still doesnt need to be all benevolent. It simply needs to be the creator of it all and all powerful to be held responsible for its creation... This is pretty straight forward. If you make something and you have full power over it, then you are responsible for it.

if a loving God existed he would either smite me or give me a normal life

This is called inner monologue. You talk to yourself when you are thinking all the time. If you desperately want something you say it desperately to yourself... this isnt anything...

Every god ever created (and there are thousands) comes with exactly the same amount of supporting evidence. That amount is zero. That is really all you need to know.

And if you have been conned by the scam that religions are all about helping the poor, remember that the most religious countries in the world have the most uneven distribution of wealth, and the least religious have the most even distribution. Look into Gini Index/Religiosity correlation.

Religions are scams designed to wield control over you, and to separate you from your cash.

I offer you these facts for free. Your priest will lie to your face, and then pass around the collection plate.

You are the one missing the core concept, bud. Youre upset because you feel you suffer needlessly. We suffer so that we can appreciate pleasure. A king who has known power his whole life would not appreciate it. If you had been born in heaven, if you had never known what life was like on earth, you wouldnt derive as much pleasure from being in heaven.

And who said thats how the world worked? You? Hohoh.

Hes not going to give you anything, because youre more than capable of taking what you need for yourself. Get to work.

Occam's razor. Nothing will always be a simpler assumption over something. Personally, the deluge of suffering this world is drowning under helps reinforce that for me. Is God a moronic architect or just a total asshole? Hard to respect either way if it is real. Eternal punishment for not sucking divine sack exacerbates that. It'd be nice to be able to believe that stuff is real. Gives someone to point a finger at for all the problems and makes me feel better about all the kind people who are taking dirt naps.

But god decides how much pleasure I get in heaven, no my subjective experience of it.

Also what about the people who go to hell?

Did he create those souls to suffer forever without ever knowing his goodness?

If you cause something then you are responsible? these are true by definition.

there is historians working about this , to them the Bible is a book of fables written in some Mesopatamian king's court

...

Everyone has to find their own proof. What I have seen and heard that has led me to God is not necessarily what you will see. You must first believe and have faith, and the proof will come to you in time, when you need it. Some people go their whole lives just to find their beliefs confirmed right before they die. I count myself lucky that I was shown the light so early, but it was because I needed it.

I'm not talking about a situation where you are talking to yourself, like wishing being as rich as xxx, I meant the belief everyone has that there's some superficial power running around this world, the belief you get when you see oppression but you believe oppressors will pay, you believe there is some power stronger than ours that'll make them pay.

mesopotamian*

Best argument for the existence of an omnipotent being from one of the world's most recognized atheists: samharris.org/blog/item/is-religion-true-in-the-matrix

Vid: youtube.com/watch?v=buWKH66OhhQ

You didn't answer what I said about can it even be considered proof. But what do you even mean by because you needed it. Isn't it the people who don't believe in your religion the ones who reallly need the proof? It simply does not add up at all. Are you being honest with yourself or just trying to promote something.

What? God decides how much pleasure you get in heaven? Where in the bible does it say that? You have a lot of misconceptions about how God works. Im sorry to say you wont find the answers you seek by talking to a pastor, because theyre almost as clueless as you are. But if you truly want to find answers, read the bible, have faith, and the answers will come for you as they came for me. Maybe not in the same way, but in some way.

The logical problem of evil is one of the oldest arguments and has never been successfully argued against.

>God exists.

>God is omnipotent, omniscient, and
omnibenevolent.

>An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.

>An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence, and knows every way in which those evils could be prevented.

>An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.

>A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.

>If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, then no evil exists.

>Evil exists (logical contradiction).

By human definition. Last I checked, God doesnt answer to you or your lame dictionary.

Not everyone has that belief. I can prove this because I do not... When I see oppression I don't believe the oppressors will necessarily pay because evidence shows often they do not.

Well yes, if he created you and created heaven he decided how much pleasure you would get in heave since he create all of it.

The original argument was god is either an asshole or nonexistent. If there is an all-powerful being able to stop suffering and does not this is called being an asshole. If you say the suffering is caused by people and god created people then god is still responsible because he created people who would cause suffering.

Youre thinking that proof needs to be peer edited. Maybe in science, but this is God we're talking about. And I was shown my proof because I believed, had faith, and was at deaths door. People who dont believe wont receive the proof because THEY DONT BELIEVE. So even if they were shown the proof, which they probably are some times, they wouldnt believe it. They wouldnt think twice about it.

Heheh. No. I refer you to my previous statement.

You had a near death experience?

It's all about having faith...give it a shot, what could it hurt?

If God existed it would be self evident. It would be impossible to not notice God.

So the proof you are talking about is so unconvincing that you already need to believe it, you have to feel the NEEED to confirm your belief, and people get the proof all the time and dont even notice it. If this is how powerful your proof is then it is simply confirmation bias. Its hard to recognize it when you are practicing it yourself.

He created us and gave us free will. If he were to intervene and stop us from exerting our free will, it wouldnt really be fair. At that point we're just puppets in his game of Doll House, which is not the point of God at all.

>Everyone has to find their own proof
this is the problem with religion, the exact issue we dont have with science. if i say objects fall to the earth at a speed of 32 feet per second squared, i can show you how i came to that conclusion. and if you copy my experiment, youll get the same number. if you say you know god exists and then say i may not get to the same conclusion if i do the same things you do, then you dont have proof. you have a belief. and believing something to be true does not make it true.

Neat!

But it's wrong,

God created you.
Therefore God created your ability feel pleasure.
This means that god decided how much pleasure you would feel at any time.
This includes when you are in heaven.
You're suggesting that there is a variable that god did not control.
That makes him no longer god.

A few

Hint: The definition of evil is wholly taken for granted.

If "good" is a higher moral concept that God is contingent to, then God is not omnipotent. If God is not omnipotent, then God does not exist.

Therefore, one cannot make the argument that God is contingent to a higher moral standard. God alone is the only standard of good by nature. Anything that opposes this standard is the definition of evil.

Thus, evil is not a problem, and can even be a tool for good. How? If God prevented all evils (instantly), then you would not exist.

Thus, allowing evil is an aspect of mercy. However, allowing evil to exist indefinitely is an injustice. Evil must eventually be dealt with, but it doesn't need to be "instantaneously," as PoE implies.

You can call it confirmation bias all day, but unless you experience it yourself, you really have no idea. What youre doing is providing yourself with an excuse to quit before you even begin believing.

What do you define as noticing God?

Did you see an angel or something?

Seeing anything is rare and it's thought to be related to the release of DMT in your brain.

For one thing you are completely missing all the nonhuman caused suffering in the world. Secondly if a god created humans then why would it have created some with the intention of doing harm? I dont go around killing things and my free will isnt restricted. However some people do go around killing people. Why was the serial killer created? There is no need to have serial killers and have free will. It is a lie to say there must be suffering if there is free will.

By definition, an omnipotent being is not limited to form. Thus, not self-evident. You could very well exist within an infinite mind that is not limited to form. Again, not immediately self-evident.

It is literally impossible for me to believe. Its not a choice you are either convinced or not. This is why its such a ridiculous litmus test. I literally can not choose to believe something.

Neither does disbelieving something. And why are we still even comparing science to religion? Its apples and oranges. Religion is based on faith, something so profoundly un-scientific that you could make arguments all day about how science can be proven, but it doesnt matter. Until science can objectively disprove God, I'll keep my faith.

>You could very well exist within an infinite mind that is not limited to form.

I would love to see you prove this statement. Can you give an example of a mind existing without form?

Also why do you say an omnipotent being is not limited to form by definition? The only thing it is by definition is that it must be all powerful. Can you prove that such a thing must have no physical form?

Allowing evil to exist at all is malevolent if you have the ability stop it, which as the designer of a system you would.

>allowing evil is an aspect of mercy

Evil for the sake of evil is not mercy, it's just evil.

A child born with HIV to a mother who is starving will suffer until it dies, it had no point on earth besides suffering.

This is evil.

You're confusing your subjective will with objective evidence.

No, but I was basically guided onto the path that I'm currently on through freak coincidences that have no explanation other than they were set up. And who the hell would care about me enough to set them up other than God?