How deep would have Germans advance if Soviet Union was perfectly ready? Meaning Stalin trusted his generals and spies, no purges, Tukachevsky doctrines are implemented on time and Richard Sorge data is taken in consideration.
My bet is that they wouldn't go farther than Kiev. Maybe Rostov-on-Don.
Other urls found in this thread:
youtube.com
worldfuturefund.org
twitter.com
Hitler's original plan was to overshoot Moscow on two sides, then close from behind in a pincer. He got dissentery the week Barbarossa started, and his generals pressed him to do a direct assault while he was sick. He finally agreed. People still say "Hitler didn't listen to his generals", but the irony was that he listened to his generals. Direct assault on Moscow was what trapped them when they didn't advance fast enough.
I am familiar with this meme. You are right, when they reached outskirts of Moscow and got bogged down those same generals urged Hitler to withdraw the troops. But he refused.
Had they retreated, they would suffer massive casualties due to freezing since between the positions they already took and Smolensk was absolutely no shelter.
If Stalin wouldn´t have been a retard and would have had a fully mobilized and competent military ready, then the soviets would have steamrolled europe. They had more thanks than everyone west of the SU combined (on european soil). Millions of soldiers and meat shields ready...
Since he was a retard, most of his relevant military got destroyed in the first few month of barbarossa. Soviets lost 34.000 tanks in the first year while germany attacked with roughly 7000 (they only had 8500 at the beginning of barbarossa).
this.
Why even attack the Soviet Union?
If anything he should of focused on the UK and bomb them to bits. Wait for the Americans to come and fight em off.
They needed oil badly. Caucus oil fields. Also Lebensraum. He didn't gaf about them being commies.
That's bullshit. Hitler ordered Guderian's army back to trap a large mass of conscripts way before the assault on Moscow.
>oil meme
>lebensraum meme
Oh boy.
Germany got news that the soviets would be mobilizing (few month before barbarossa) and SU got news that germany is mobilizing (few weeks before barbarossa). But Stalin wouldn´t really believe the news and continued to mobilize for invasion, basically playing a game of "who could mobilize faster".... Stalin lost that game.
On 19 January 1925 to the Central Committee of the CPSU:
“But when the war starts, we will not sit back and take it easy – we will have
to fall in, but we go last. We will line up to bring the decisive weight to bear.” 6)
This strategy Stalin confirmed once more shortly before his death.6) Or, Stalin
on another occasion:
“We need to remember that Lenin had emphasized just how much depends
upon delaying the unavoidable war with the capitalist countries, because the
war must be put off until such time that either the revolution has entrenched
itself in the colonies or, in the end, the capitalists are fighting each other…
The basis for our relations with the capitalist countries lies in our affirming
the peaceful co-existence between the two opposing systems.” 7)
Founded on these motives, the Soviet Union was trying, adhering strictly to
the Leninian teachings of strategy and tactics, to aggravate the disagreements
between the European countries; openly fanning the flames of hatred, they were
also sowing the seeds of discord in the European nations by making use, as was
their wont, of their dialectical phraseology. Result: Agitating against national
unification in Germany, against the “imperialistic annexation” (Rhineland, Austria,
Sudetenland, Bohemia-Moravia, Memel), and it seemed irrelevant that the
Bolsheviks had been, once upon a time, fiercely against the Versailles ruling.
“Within the political context, the Second World War had already started
on 30 January 1933.” 8)
This agitating pose was also meeting the tactical interests of the Soviet Union,
given that it opened the prospects of a military coalition against Germany, with
its own potentials for expansion. Routinely ascribing to other governments a
willingness and readiness for war are, anyway, integral parts of the Communist
worldview and politics, in which facts are totally irrelevant. The Prague Marxist
newspaper Pravo Lidu wrote on 18 September 1938, thus before the home-coming
of the Sudeten-Germans to the Reich:
“We may not be strong enough to defeat Germany, but we are strong enough
to get all Europe embroiled in a war.” *)
Here public expression is given to what is not only consistent with Communist
ideology, but which had already been arranged in the Comintern a long time
ago. Let us briefly note the previously cited Soviet admission:
“Throughout the course of the prewar years the Soviet government was
prepared to employ armed force against Germany.” 9)
Marshal Voroshilov also affirmed to his opposite number, the French General
Doumenc, during the course of the British-French-Soviet military negotiations
on 22 August 1939:
“When Czecho-Slovakia fell last year, we were waiting for a sign from
France. Our troops were standing by, but no sign was given.” 10)
Therefore, those eager to apply force of arms during the prewar years and,
consequently, act aggressively were, admittedly, the Soviets. If one follows through
the Communists’ line of reasoning, then it would be first and foremost Great
Britain, France and the United States incurring an “historical guilt” by the fact
that they had pursued a “policy of non-interference” with regard to Hitler, instead
of promptly following the Soviet policy of meddling and destruction. Nikita
Khrushtchev acknowledged in an interview in November 1958:
“In 1939 Stalin saw an opportunity to weaken Hitler, before the coming
attack on Russia, in that he encouraged him to wage war in the West.” 11)
“The Non-Aggression Pact with Germany was designed to gain time and
strengthen our defensive forces… Not Britain and France were the true fighting
force. The true fighting force against the Fascist peril, the single-minded
fighters from beginning to end, were the Communist parties. The Communists
were fighting uncompromisingly against Fascism.” 13)
The USSR, when concluding the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact of 23
August 1939, so we are informed by Soviet historians,
“did not doubt for one moment Germany’s intention to attack the Soviet
Union.” 15)
“From the first moment on (after the conclusion of the Pact), war with
Germany seemed inevitable in the coming weeks.” 16
Stalin’s arrangements with Great Britain and France, just prior to the outbreak of war, were based on the same objective. Stalin
realized that he would achieve a result furthering the world revolution, if he could
succeed in getting the European powers embroiled in a war. So he stated his intentions
to the members of the Politburo at a secret meeting on 23 August 1939:
“I am convinced that Germany, if we continue our alliance with France
and Britain, will find herself forced to draw back from Poland. This way war
will be avoided. But events will then assume a character, which is threatening
to us.
If, on the other hand, we accept the proposals made by Germany, British
and French intervention will become inevitable. In any case we shall have to
stay out of the conflict. Our interests demand it. We shall thus have to accept
the German proposals and, with a polite refusal, send the British and French
missions home.
It is important for us that this war should break out. We must intensify
Communist efforts so as to be well prepared for the time when the conflict
will come to its end.” 17)
>Hitler ordered Guderian's army back to trap
Re-read my post. I was speaking about the original plan and the last minute change to a direct approach to Moscow, not what happened once they started the operation.
>Why even attack the Soviet Union?
It was inevitable. It was why Hitler attacked Poland (and spent 9 months trying to make a Polish-German anti-Soviet pact beforehand), to pre-empt Stalin who he feared would take all of Europe. Hitler has no idea how many tanks Stalin had massed in secret until they were already comitted, so there was little to be done. Maybe if Hitler has taken Moscow he would have had a chance to hold out the winter, but the chances were slim.
When the Red Army was deployed on the Soviet Western border, this having
already started in late autumn 1939 – in spite of a virtually undefended German Eastern
front line – it was offensively structured and vastly strengthened, on a scale hitherto
unknown21), stretching from Finland and the Baltic through Poland as far as Rumania
and the Black Sea, then this had to be regarded as further evidence of an imminently
threatening large-scale offensive of Bolshevism. Up to June 1941, there had been
deployed on the Soviet side “with extreme caution and very gradually” 22) in the Western
border regions, which, furthermore, is admitted 23) : 13 armies of over 131 infantry
divisions, 23 cavalry divisions, 36 motorized brigades and roughly 40 armoured tank
divisions, coming close to 4.7 million soldiers.24). One should compare this figure with the one in 1939, when the whole of the Red Army numbered only 2 million
men.25) In June 1941, the Soviet Union had 21,000 tanks, which included some light
and outdated ones, as well as the bomb shells of the campaign: T-34 and KV [for K.
Voroshilov].26) + 24) German military intelligence underestimated the Soviet army by
100 army units, and, besides, had “no conception of their modern weaponry”.27)
Thus, the former Soviet General Alexei Markoff, who in the
spring of 1941 was in command of troops on the Soviet Western frontier, put an
account in the American newspaper, the Saturday Evening Post of 13 May 1950,
according to which Stalin, after the defeat of France in the summer of 1940, had ordered “preparations for war against Germany, because Hitler had won too
quickly”.
“To his question of how much time he had available for getting his men
ready for combat, he received from the Soviet General Staff the answer: ‘Until
autumn; we are not yet ready. We will strike when convenient for us’.”30)
“The Soviet Union’s increased strength and capabilities allowed, in the
event of war, the setting of a determined strategic goal, up to the total
destruction of the aggressor in his own territory. The main consideration in
the war operations for attaining these objectives was the attack, on whose
theoretical elaboration great attention was focussed.” 35)
“We will wage the war offensively by taking it into the enemy’s territory.”36)
“For the offensive operations, special importance was given to the ‘shock
armies’, i.e. especially reinforced armies, which were designated for the main
object of the attack.” 38)
“The combat strength of these shock armies had to be extremely powerful,
according to planning: 3-4 rifle corps (12-15 rifle divisions), 1-2 motorized
or cavalry corps, 3-4 air divisions, 10-12 artillery regiments, some armoured
regiments, engineer battalions, units for chemical defence etc. For the main
attack route was the operative concentration [of troops] for breaking through
the enemy’s defensive position as follows: one rifle division per 2-2.5 kilometres,
50-100 fieldguns and as many tanks per kilometre. There was planned
a depth of 150-250 kilometres for the offensive operations, for the operation
of the shock armies a depth of 75-100 kilometres. The general width of the
frontline could vary in this combat operation from between 150-300 kilometres,
that of the shock armies from between 50-80 kilometres. The width of the
main strike, i.e. the actual breakthrough zone, was to be for the frontline 60-
80 kilometres, for the shock armies this was to be 20-30 kilometres.
“Defensive operations were not receiving much attention. The defence
was regarded only as a back-up for safeguarding the attack.” 40)
“The attacking width for a rifle division was fixed at 3-4.5 kilometres, for
that of a rifle corps at between 8-12 kilometres.
The air force was assigned the task of carrying out operations in depth and
to gain air supremacy. According to the Soviet view prevalent at the time, Red
air supremacy could also be obtained on the operational scale, provided that
the mission of the air force was done unexpectedly, was massed, and without
any let-up whatever the state of the weather.” 41)
“The orders and directives for the Soviet naval forces were also oriented
towards attack. Here, too, quick, sudden and concentrated strikes against
enemy ships, sea routes, coastal targets and mine-barrages etc., were supposed
to quickly put the enemy’s fleet out of action.” 42)
A further testimony deserves attention: The then highly decorated Commanderin-
Chief of the Twentieth Soviet army, promoted at the beginning of 1942 to
Deputy Commander-in-Chief of army group Volkhov, the General Andrei
Andreievich Vlasov, who, in 1942 in Berlin after his capture, replied to the question of whether Stalin would have had the intention to attack Germany and what date
for such an offensive would have been planned:
“The offensive had been intended for August/September 1941. The Soviets
had been forming up since the beginning of the year, which, due to the bad
Soviet railroad lines, went rather slowly. Hitler judged the situation perfectly
and plowed right into the Soviets while they were deploying.” 44)
I think thats enough copy paste
Why didn't our leaders fucking side with Hitler
The cowards, the fewls
Few people realize, the only reason Stalin stopped, and Patton wasn't allowed to engage the Soviets, was because the US used atomic weapons on the Japanese. The knowledge of that was the only thing that stopped the Soviet plans on Europe. Its a massive tragedy, to think how Churchill was played, both by the Zionists, and then by his American allies who wanted to see the collapse of the British empire. Had the British sided with Hilter against the Soviets, they would stlll have their empire, Europe would be far different, and we never would have had the scourge of communism for the last 100 years.
our eternal shame.
So much was lost because of Allied idiocy.
...
Because you were baited by britain with false promises. Your nation, which came back into existence thanks to the treaty of versailles, went into "muh poland strong" mode and had imperialistic desires. French-Polish border at the Elbe or Polish-Japanese border at the Ural mountains together with reaching the adrian sea. One could say you guys went a little bit mad back then but wouldn´t have done anything if britain wouldn´t have given you the clean slate of "yeah will support you against germany" knowing full well that they won´t help you and can´t help you.
Hitler got a shot non aggression pact, wanted peace and an alliance gainst the USSR. Sadly poland removed their diplomat from Berlin after they got the "clean slate" form britain so all negotiations had to go from germany, to britain which forwarded them (or actually didn´t forward them) to poland... britain as a mediator could temper with the information, making sure that poland would agitate germany further and further.
You guys were just used by britain as a sacrifice to start the war.
Don't forget the French abandonment of the treay of Locarno, and the Soviet-French German containment pact they signed to antagonize Hitler. Churchill and Halifax made offers to the Polish, and baited them into failed alliance talks with Hitler. Gave the impression that the Soviets, British, French, and Poles were allying to surround Germany. Once the Zionists announced economic warfare against Germany with a boycott, and the German minister was assasinated in Paris, it seemed obvious the world was about to attack Germany.
>worldfuturefund.org
Those are a lot of subtle existential threats being coordinated. But, like the holohoax, people ignore the obvious conclusions of historical facts to believe what they are told to believe.
Nice trips.
And not to forget: The molotov-rippentrop pact which came from the soviet side. Germany/Hitler only agreed to split poland because he knew that if Poland got wind that the soviets and germans would attack them that this would force poland to negotiate with germany and peace could be kept.
So german ambassadors went around to the french, brits and US, basically everyone they could find, and told them about the "secret" pact in hopes that this news would reach poland. Of course, nobody told poland this news because they knew it would avaid war.
It disgusts me how the wrong side won the war and everybody today thinks that the "good guys" won....
Because you would have had to give up Danzig and entire Polish Corridor to them. You would have willingly cuck yourself and lose sea access?
who gives a shit ?
war is not a football game, common people die while butt-hurt artists compensate their dick size with war and conquest.
I just think of the millions upon millions of people killed by the commies, the decades of economic retardation. If we could stop that, even if anyone not german was to be a second class citizen, i think it would have been worth it.
>give up danzig
It was a free city with 95% german population. It didn´t belong to poland directly.
>entire Polish Corridor to them
wrong. Hitler wanted to negotiate for direct autobahn and additional trains tracks to east prussia. The corridor stuff was brought on the table with the desire to let the allies decide to whom it will go. And in case germany got it, they would have build an autobahn for poland to the sea and gave them access to it through the danzig port.