If the EU and all of Europe abandons food subsidies

and stop food tariffs, wouldn't this pretty much kill most of the farmers in Europe?

So, would it be good to stop all the subsidies and food protectionism in Europe?

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telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/4316726/EU-butter-mountain-to-return.html
independent.ie/business/farming/moves-to-aid-farmers-as-butter-mountains-return-to-eu-34540002.html
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Or the government could just fund the subsidies with the money they give the EU...

>and stop food tariffs, wouldn't this pretty much kill most of the farmers in Europe?
Yes.
European farmes cant compete with the ones in the USA or Argentinia
>So, would it be good to stop all the subsidies and food protectionism in Europe?
You would waste 2000 Years of european farmer culture.
Europes succes was build on the backbones of our farmers, i think we should try to keep the european agriculture alive

>Be Sweden
>pay 100 euro
>get 50 euro back, lots of it in food subsidies
We could just give 50 to our own farmers and keep the rest of the money for ourselves. The EU fucking sucks.

Subsidies keep farming unprofitable. It doesn't matter inside a single nation how you pay for it (taxes or your own cash), but subsidized western wheat and corn are for example the reason for Africa being poor.

>Or the government could just fund the subsidies with the money they give the EU...
But why? Why not just import cheap food and use the money for subsidies and give it back to the taxpayers?

>You would waste 2000 Years of european farmer culture.
But it uncompetitive, why not just let it die?

>Europes succes was build on the backbones of our farmers, i think we should try to keep the european agriculture alive
Why? Europe had a big textile industry once, now it is no more. We import all clothes from Asia. And we still aren't all running around naked.

>Subsidies keep farming unprofitable. It doesn't matter inside a single nation how you pay for it (taxes or your own cash), but subsidized western wheat and corn are for example the reason for Africa being poor.
So all subsidies should be abandoned, and all tariffs on food, no?

It's competitive. But you have different systems competing. Besides our food production would depend on foreign producers. If there will ever be war we would be fucked up beyond recognition. Furthermore, if we would stop it our knowledge would go down the gutter. Americans wouldn't use European technology since they have other needs in their production.

If you don't understand this you're either too stupid or a shill. In both cases fuck off.

those textiles have a pathetic quality per cost and are enriching the corporations

since other countries like USA will not stop subsidies then we would disadvantage our agriculture if it received no help

>If there will ever be war we would be fucked up beyond recognition.
Why? Do you think Austria cannot use its land to grow food then?

If you are concerned about a footshortage if the world fights a war against Austria, Austria could have a 6 month grain and food supply in store. Would be a fraction of the costs of food subsidies.

>since other countries like USA will not stop subsidies then we would disadvantage our agriculture if it received no help
So? If the USA wants to subsidize its farmers and thus provide Europe with cheap food at US taxpayer expense, shouldn't we just say "thank you"?

If you don't do farming you can't farm. You can't look this shit up on the Internet. You need to do it for years and more years. It's the same with any trade. If all of Europe would stop their farming right now, without anybody doing it for 10 years for example. You couldn't restart it after this 10 years. The efficiency would probably go down to 25% of the original or less. You fuckshit. This isn't a video game where you only click a button.

I'm not concerned. I'm talking about how to correctly lead a country you dipshit.

Any 4 year old can put a potato in a hole of dirt. Any 5 year old can put seeds into a cornfield. Any 6 year old can feed chickens.

Not sure what the heck you are talking about.

Food subsidies are bad. I do not want to have my money go to 1% of farmers who cannot compete internationally.

or just get rid of prohibitive laws that make it so European farming will never be competitive.
>all of Europe fell for the GMO's are scary meme
KEK

GMOs are scary. They are scary because they are American. Europeans do not want American products.

>0/10
kill yourself then go on reddit

>flood the continent with barbarian hordes
>cut off all funding for farms
>food prices skyrocket
What could possibly go wrong?

lol dude the free market will fix it

>>food prices skyrocket
Actually, if you stop quotas, tariffs and subsidies, food prices would actually go down massively.

Subsidies are what keeps food prices low. You think American farms dumping corn on the world is an accident? They're paid to farm that damn much food by our government.

If subsidies in the US were ended, for example, Africa would starve in a month, and there'd be riots here by the end of the year.

Insert British joke about fat Americans.

Our milk already costs less than water while being better than anything else anyone has to provide. Farmers have been and will remain forever cucked. A protest or two here and there, yet nothing ever gets done.

I thought milk in Europe tasted like shit

Subsidies exist in many places like Finland to even keep sufficient food production in the country. Only a fucking idiot would balloon their population above what can be domestically produced (like Saudis kek).

>European milk tasting like shit
>that flag

Are you an Aussie on a vacation?

That's because we don't dump tons of sugar in it like you do.

Only Swedish milk, which has the higher content of semen and estrogen

youtube.com/watch?v=QTxFRFydcAk

>let's kill of the, admittedly, inefficient food production in Europe
>let's import all our food from overseas where it is polluted as fuck with heavy metals, pesticides and GMOs
Nothing could possibly go wrong.

Do you have any idea how CHEAP it is to protect European agriculture? 58 billion EUR in 2015. In order to feed a continent of 510 million people.

Do you know how much Germany ALONE will spend on refugees in 2016?
rt.com/news/343016-germany-refugee-spending-2020/
>Germany to spend €93.6bn on refugees.
That's in order to feed and house 1,5 million dindus. So fuck off with your subversive propaganda and shilling for Monsanto.

>where it is polluted as fuck with heavy metals, pesticides and GMOs
What?

>Do you have any idea how CHEAP it is to protect European agriculture? 58 billion EUR in 2015.
58 billion Euro... cheap??? And that is just the EU subsidies. We are not even talking about the 100 billion in additional state subsidies. Not even mentioning the tariffs and trade barriers which cost another 100 billion because of higher food prices.

WTF are you even talking about?

>European farmes cant compete with the ones in the USA or Argentinia

French Farmers can't.
Dutch farmers can - IF USA also ended its farming subsidies of course.

>What?

I've read somewhere that up 40 percent of the food produced for EU imports in third world countries fails EU consumer regulations.

You spend more money on importing trash than on protecting the food security of Europe.

Subsidies are what's killing our agriculture.

>In order to feed a continent of 510 million people.

We still have to buy our food.

And a large portion of those """""farming""""" subsidies goes to golf courses, motocross parks, bull fighting and castle estates.

>get rid of development aid
>spend the money on increased local farming subsidies

But the EU is extremely critical on food imports.
A single GMO kernel can disqualify an entire shipload.

Mind you: they don't do this for our safety, but as a sneaky way to limit imports and thus protect local farmers.

Stop with the subsidies (socialism) and tax foreign products that you already have. Also stop selling euro tech (mainly weapons) to enemies and sell it to allies. Also fuck China.

>A single GMO kernel can disqualify an entire shipload.

That doesn't seem to make sense to me - how would they even find it?

they sneakily trained jews from across the eu to sniff them out by slathering GMO's all over gold, tricking the jews mind.

>how would they even find it?

They only take a couple of samples of course.
But if one of the samples has a single positive result they disqualify the entire load, even if the next 100 samples would have been clear.

For local products there are far more relaxed standards, where some contamination is always allowed.
But not on imports.

Protectionism in America and Europe are the reason why food prices are a lot higher than they could be. The system of protectionism is made off subsidies, export subsidies, tariffs, quotas etc.

If you eliminate all these restrictions, investments in low cost producing countries would massively go up, reducing food prices worldwide.

>Stop with the subsidies (socialism) and tax foreign products that you already have. Also stop selling euro tech (mainly weapons) to enemies and sell it to allies. Also fuck China.

If you stop subsidies, the "poor" farmers will drive their modern tractors to block roads for 3 weeks, because they really have nothing to do anyway, but smoke weed and watch their bank account which gets filled by EU subsidy money and other bribes who want to "keep European farming healthy".

What BS. Farming is just another industry. We need no stinking tariffs, quotas, subsidies and other barriers for competition. Let farmers compete based on at what quality and price they can produce.

>A single GMO kernel can disqualify an entire shipload.
As they should. Biological contaminants are dangerous. Let one vector in and then before you know it you won't have any pure-strain plants left in Europe.

>But if one of the samples has a single positive result they disqualify the entire load, even if the next 100 samples would have been clear.

But that's not how statistics work. If you take a 0,001 percent sample and there's something wrong with it your perfectly justified in throwing the whole thing out.

You want to offshore the EU food production? Absolute madman.

They keep the prices high in Europe, but lower the prices in Africa where our excess production is dumped. - this makes life impossible for the African farmer so they migrate to Europe which was the plan all along.

Why does that even matter? No one in Europe goes hungry. And no one in Europe dies from eating polluted food imported from shitholes.

If the rest of the world can't feed themselves then fuck them. Famines are nature's way of clearing out the trash.

>You want to offshore the EU food production? Absolute madman.

I am a free trade person. I believe that all industries, including farming, should compete on a fair and worldwide basis.

If another country supports its farmers unfarily with subsidies, put tarrifs on these goods to compensate for such unfair practices. But otherwise, why not let the consumer decide whether he or she wants to buy a Czech product or a Russian pig or Algerian corn or Brazilian beef or American eggs or Canadian potatoes?

no because most subsidies end up going towards rapeseed at least here in the uk.

No, just France

>Biological contaminants are dangerous.

Only if they get into the wild.

Which is far less likely than some American tourist accidentally bringing seeds under their shoes.

>African farmer
Africans don't farm because farming requires foresight.
>why not let the consumer decide whether he or she wants to buy a Czech product or a Russian pig or Algerian corn or Brazilian beef or American eggs or Canadian potatoes?
Because once you drop subsidies and allow your homegrown industry to be wiped out by countries with zero health standards there's no choice left for the consumer: he can either starve or eat arsenic rice or Agent Orange tomatoes.

Yet that's not how they treat European farmers.

And you have to realize that contamination isn't something you can prevent.
Every ship will likely have at least some banned GMO in it, all it takes is one bird eating from one field and then taking a poop on the next.

You are a fucking retard. Remember the OPEC oil embargo in 1973? Imagine if someone decided to try the same with food.

>Yet that's not how they treat European farmers.
Because there's a blanket ban on GMOs in EU.

Yes germanbro.
If I wanted to become a farmer I would be forced to play the socialist game and cry for gibs. This is a highly regulated activity in which you get paid to either produce or not. There is no free market or competition and the large distribution chains own your ass. There is virtually no agriculture here.

ITT: People that know nothing about the lives of farmers and farming

I mean when it comes to other stuff like dioxine, lead, rat droppings, etc.

dude your milk comes in fucking plastic containers

Does the EU subsidize cork trees?

Small farmers are in a lose-lose situation. They can't compete with larger farmers with connections and more land, and they can't afford to sell their land either, because they'll get nothing in return. All the subsidies go to the large sharks. You could stop all subsidies and that still won't change the fact that the ones that are ahead make the rules of the game and you're in just to add to the prize pool. The people don't really "choose" much, because the average costumer doesn't care that much. They will buy what is sold to them at their convenience store nearby. Some will complain but they all keep buying.

Yes. We don't do anything without EU subsidies.

If the big sharks eat it all then we must not feed them anymore. They will have to learn how to hunt or die. People who get things for free never learn to get them by themselves. But we need to have a strong hand with those who try to circle around laws.
The small fish, like most Portuguese farmers, just want the government to leave them alone.

>Because once you drop subsidies and allow your homegrown industry to be wiped out by countries with zero health standards there's no choice left for the consumer: he can either starve or eat arsenic rice or Agent Orange tomatoes.
That makes no sense. People will always have the choice between lowly priced food and quality food. Those who have no money these days have to purchase low quality food right now, like horse meat lasagne.

what is Africa starving all the dam time

you don't need to eat the refugees will do the eating for you.

>He thinks the market would regulate itself

Bumping this one time to see more of OP trying to justify himself

>Bumping this one time to see more of OP trying to justify himself

Okay, let's dumb it down for you. If you do not distort the market, the products get cheaper. It is a universal rule.

Yes that was already spoken about in this thread. As goes the quality as giant agricultural companies control too many to be compeat against.
Especialy if you consider that in a globelized world regulations for safety, health etc. are often much lower but also cheaper.

Not even getting started with soil erosion which will make things much more expansive in the future

People buy for two reasons, 1. quality and 2. price.

Why should quality products suffer if you remove restrictions so that low price products get cheaper?

What the fuck has soil erosion to do with removing tariffs, subsidies and quotas as well as non-tariff shit restrictions?

>europe stops producing food
>half the continent dies of hunger
>rest becomes some form of alien hermaphrodites thanks to American GMO and chemical tampering

>>europe stops producing food
>>half the continent dies of hunger
>>rest becomes some form of alien hermaphrodites thanks to American GMO and chemical tampering

Why should the continent die of hunger?

Why should GMO lead to hermaphrodites?

What the hell are French people taught in school?

>People buy for two reasons, 1. quality
I'm not even going to explain that to you. YOu should be well aware of the "Geiz ist geil" mentality of the large population.

>What the fuck has soil erosion to do with removing tariffs, subsidies and quotas as well as non-tariff shit restrictions?
It's cheaper for the producer to give no shits about healthy or sustainable ways of production. If the price is the only aspect then people won't watch 50 or 100 years into the future to think about the consequences

>YOu should be well aware of the "Geiz ist geil" mentality of the large population.

So? Then they do not care for quality and buy for price. Their choice. I for one buy for quality. But I am also rich.

>It's cheaper for the producer to give no shits about healthy or sustainable ways of production.
It is called capitalism. Unsustainable production is less profitable than sustainable production of healthy products. The Chinese buy German baby food because they do not trust Chinese manufacturers.

>If the price is the only aspect then people won't watch 50 or 100 years into the future to think about the consequences
What do you suppose happens in 50 or 100 years? I couldn't care less about those timeframes myself. "Nach mir die Sintflut."

Because American produced food is spiked with a ton of shit to keep Americans docile, and the world already has a shortage of food.

>Being out of the EU means that food subsidies will magically disappear

Its not like the countries can do it themselves.

>Nach mir die Sinnflut
Ok I give up. If you think that way you are not worth of anyones time

Yes. It means we get cheaper food. The European Union not only has food tariffs, but actually piles up food and leaves to rot to create artificial demand for it. Therefore driving up food prices and increasing farmers profits. We're the ones who get burned by this. They're doing all this to increase profits.

Why? Why should I care what is going on in Europe in 100 years? What possible incentive could I have to care?

>The European Union not only has food tariffs, but actually piles up food and leaves to rot to create artificial demand for it.
They are not doing this any more. It had bad press. The EU and states now pay farmers to not do anything on their land to cut production and hike prices.

nigger

>but actually piles up food and leaves to rot to create artificial demand for it

do you have proof of that ?

because I'll take a very concrete example, Poland has been flooding the market with a massive amount of milk and eggs, thus the purchase price dropped tremendously for retailers and French agricultors cannot make ends meet when the retail price either stagnated or increased.

you've been brainwashed to think it wont

...

>you've been brainwashed to think it wont

True. It puzzles me how some people seriously think we will be better off if markets are restricted, trade is restricted, a very small group of people is subsidized massively etc.

Why the hell is wrong with people these days? Free trade is important, free trade makes us rich. Restricted trade is hurting everyone worldwide.

Have you got a source for that? To my knowledge they stopped doing it, but resumed it in 2009.

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/4316726/EU-butter-mountain-to-return.html

>It had bad press.
Gee I fucking wonder why.

You do realise your example is an advert against the Euro? Free trade is fine if constituent countries have their own currencies to protect from this shit, if not you get what you described from Poland. Forcing farmers to dump produce to keep prices high for the farmers is insanity.

>tfw this will allow the market to put stupid grain farmers out of business and ensure that hydroponics continues its trend towards becoming the dominant means of plant-based food production

>2009
>in the aftermath of a major economic collapse
>nothing more recent
>price of milk in europe is literally crashing


britshit please, I hate the EU as well but get a grip

>You do realise your example is an advert against the Euro? Free trade is fine if constituent countries have their own currencies to protect from this shit, if not you get what you described from Poland. Forcing farmers to dump produce to keep prices high for the farmers is insanity.


I'm not pro-eu at all but there used to exist exportation quotas per country that were lifted a few years ago.

Since Poland production costs are much lower than in France then the lift of the quotas hurt us the most since we have a living standard well above 90% of the union.

In the south Spanish labor is putting people out of business because they work for lower wages, often illegally, during the day and then go home over the border to spend their money.

If other people produce food better than you, and people want to buy their food instead of yours, then it's perfectly fine if you farmers were to lose out. Instead what you do is you - through violence - make food more expensive for everyone else in your country to prop up a few uncompetitive farmers. Do what you're good at - not what you're not good at.

Literally this.

I don't want to subsidize retarded French and Italian farmers because they're too fucking lazy to modernize their farming. Our own farmers would be able to compete internationally without stupid EU rules anyway, and wouldn't need any subsidies at all.

Fuck the EU.

see Zimbabwe this literally happened

independent.ie/business/farming/moves-to-aid-farmers-as-butter-mountains-return-to-eu-34540002.html

>I don't want to subsidize retarded French and Italian farmers because they're too fucking lazy to modernize their farming


Good thing you don't subsidize shit then because France is a net contributor to the EU.

thanks, and it's actually a good move by the EU somewhat

Because the entire EU budget is just agricultural subsidies right?

Fucking mongoloid.

USA subsidises their factory farms and dumps the excess as "Aid" so black Africans don't farm. Europe should be food independent so if USA do it first then maybe.

It depends which way you look at it. Farmers will love it. The average Joe on the street will not.

France gives more than it receives period, whatever the allocation is, we lose 2-3 billions a year to the EU.

Farming is unusual because of the significant lag between input and product, where the volume of production is very hard to control.

Getting rid of government intervention would make food significantly more expensive.

Right now food prices depend slightly on year-to-year seasonal effects, but government controls keep anything from swinging too far in either direction. So, if there is a drought for instance, the government will support the farmer for a year. Likewise, if there is a massive crop boom, and supply/demand makes prices drop so low the farmers can't recoup their investment from the begining of the year, then again the government will step in.

Now, if we suddenly stopped, yes, lots of farmers (maybe even most) would go out of business. Very large factory farms would mostly survive, and get much larger buying the failing farms.

Now, after that we wouldn't see a worldwide food shortage. BUT farmers would need to start preparing to subsidize themselves for bad years on the good years, and build up multiple years worth of savings.

That means, significantly higher price increases on normal years, lower prices on boom years, and stupendously high prices on drought years.

Supply/demand.