Alcoholic thread

Alcoholic thread

Fuck AA we just need a bunch of faggots on Sup Forums to tell us how to live our lives.

I drink a liter of whiskey every friday and saturday, other wise I just drink a lot in the hour or 2 I have during the week.
I'm sure I want to quit with in the next year from now. What holds me back is fear of withdrawal and fear of the general change in lifestyle. I havnt been sober for over a decade except twice I was sober for a month or 3. I would shoot heroin, take lsd, smoke weed, drink, etc. All I do now is smoke cigs and drink like thats the only thing I know how to do when I'm alone.

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I'm gonna cheers to you sir. Got a bottle of buffalo trace I'm gonna kill tonight.

I wish I could drink like a healthy normal human being.
But cheers

If this op then your alcohol consumption isn't unusual in my opinion. If it don't affect your your responsibilities then the only thing you really got to care about is your health and that's on you

i can't grip the idea of being wasted on a regular basis. it was funny when i was 16 yo, not anymore. do kratom if you fear the withdrawals, it gets ppl off of heroin. gives you some pretty nice effects on your daily life too.

Never did kratom. Is it anything like spice?

Benzodiazepines can kill withdrawal, I've never heard of kratom being used.

Find things to do. Might seem boring at first, but you can't just lie around doing nothing. If you do, you'll probably relapse. If you are bored, find shit to do.

Did you ever quit heavy drinking yourself?I should not be a pussy. When I quit I am sure I wont look back.

I bet kratom doesnt do shit.

I dont get wasted since I am so tolerant of alcohol. I did heroin for 2 years straight and quit for the past 3 years. Will never go back.

>use keyboard shortcuts

lol its the only image in my /adv/ folder
It never did much for me either.

I'm out of beer

help

nah, nothing like spice. shit helps me with focusing and social anxiety mostly. a lot depends on which type (vein) of kratom you take. one of my mates uses it to put down weed, other one puts down normal cigs with it from time to time. i use it when i have a lot of work/tight schedule, or when i don't want to drink/smoke weed to socialize better. no withdrawals, no hangover. fucks up your hunger a bit, but even that depends on the person. i lost a few kilos, because i tend to not keep an eye on regular eating. only negative side is that it's disgusting. don't even try with teas and such, just get a pill machine if you're taking kratom.

I never run out cause I go consistently to the liquor store twice a week. Once to buy a 15 pack of IPA and again to buy a 2 liter bottle of liquor. It gets close though. I can survive off 2 IPA but it will drive me nuts. On the weekend I absolutely need constant alcohol.

I drink 8-12 beers a day. I am also doing homebrewing but I ran out of malt so I've had to buy beer the last week which is kinda shit.

buddy put down amfetamine and x with kratom. might worth a try with alcohol, dunno shit about that.

My drinking is going to kill me though. I drink so much that I just forget what I did the previous day.

fuck all drugs. I outgrew them. Just have this final hurdle which is alcohol and cigs.

I had no problem quitting tobacco. Easiest to quit, some fag just bet me I couldn't do it.

I agree, but I feel like drinking has to come first.
I started in highschool, quit after highschool and picked it back up when I was dating a smoker.
All I had to do was stop buying it. Alcohol just scares me cause I've been to rehab and most people there were there for alcohol and most of them had terrible stories about seizing up. Since rehab I found a good career and don't want to lose it or miss work.

I paid $4K for a 4 week outpatient alcohol treatment program, would just sit around in a group and counselor would go around and say "what's up with your day today", 5 minutes each, sit around the rest of the time for three hours, then that ended and I'd go to AA and buy booze on the way home.

AA just tries to guilt you into sobriety but doesn't handle whatever reason it is you prefer to be buzzed rather than sober. Waste of time and money.

i'm not going to preach about alcohol and cigs being drugs, but why use them if you can't get the right type of pleasure of doing drugs? i smoked weed daily and once i realized that i can't get the same sensation as when i smoked a joint on a saturday night after a sober week, it felt like there was no real purpose of doing it.

I know that. I did heroin for 2 years and eventually went into inpatient rehab. It fucking sucked and I went through it. I dont remember how soon after I got out I just went right back to heroin.
I tried out patient and was still taking heroin. Got caught on a drug test and kicked out of the program. At that point everyone (family, friends, etc) all abandoned me and I quit on my own finally.
I picked up drinking and no one fucking gives a shit when you drink.
AA/NA are terrible. I consider going again, but it is in no way a crutch or something to rely on. I would view it as a way to meet people who want to be sober, but other than that, fuck the steps and the gatherings.

Went out for family meal.
Said I didn't want to drink alcohol because I will want to continue drinking all night till I pass out.
End up being bought 3 pints.
No money to buy any more, couldn't borrow any money off any family members to get more... fucking nightmare.
When you have an alcohol problem there's nothing worse than having a few drinks and then stopping.
It's illogical to most people to think this is a problem but it is... once I have 1, I have to drink for about 15 afterwards until I'm hammered.
Getting a little teaser then not being able to continue feels horrible... but at the same time I'm hoping it makes me realise I don't NEED it...even though my last drink was 3 hours ago and I'm still trying to figure out how the hell I'm going to get more when I've got less than £1 in my account.

Alcoholism sucks, I just want to get fucking steaming but I can't.

I used to hate alcohol then it grew on me. I get so wasted that it shuts my over active brain down and feels like bliss. I've never been sober long enough to know how adult me would even be if I was consistently sober.

The reason I want to quit is my health mainly. It doesn't seem to be a big enough factor cause it isn't immediate danger. So I am trying to think of the other advantages.
I end up getting drunk alone and lose the ability to drive or meet up with people so thats 1.
I get so drunk I cant focus on anything in particular. Like progressing in a hobby or learning something new, thats 2.

I feel you Sup Forumsro. But it is so nice to not be a slave to an addiction anymore. The world just opens up.

I actually never drink when I go out since I want to appear like a normal person when I am with family or friends. I drink a shit load when I'm a lone though and have the time and nothing to do the next day. I can wake up tomorrow in the early AM and start drinking right away after like 3-4 hours of sleep. Might pass out for an hour or 2 and resume. Sunday I drink a shit load in the morning then try to sleep as much as possible for work on monday.

And drinking a few then stopping is exactly what I do to put myself to sleep during the week. I get bored and tired.

I want this so much.
I can only imagine the money I'd save if I didnt drink or smoke. And the way I could build stronger or various new relationships. And do something productive. I know what I want, but I'm simply not there yet. I dont see myself quitting at least til JAN 1st next year or around march which is my birthday. I quit heroin a week before my birthday 3 years ago.

you probably dont have kids. but as a kid with an alcoholic parent, its the most degenerative thing/person you could be.

I dont have kids and my parents werent alcoholics.
I'm 26 and drank heavily for 3 years straight, not even a day of stopping.
Hope its not too late to have kids. I know I can probably be healthy still. Everyone in my family died of odd reasons.

Also drugs dont faze me much since ever since I was 16 I lived hardly any time sober.
Only time I ever really lost control was on salvia when it wasn't regulated and it still had concentrated extracts. Worst drug ever to take, but Its funny to watch others on it.

OP here. I'm gonna fuck off for now. You guys haven't really given me much tonight. I will motivate myself in time.
Was hoping some of you were heavy drinkers and could explain what happens when you want to and have successfully quit.
Heroin withdrawal sucked, but I knew it wouldn't kill me and I wasnt working then. Cant say the same with alcohol.

the main reasons i used kratom for work, because it gets me so focused, so zoned in, i forget about basically everything else. i think that might be the reason why it helps with withdrawals.

it helps with focusing, sleeping, social anxiety, withdrawals, etc. so many things, this shit sounds like scam. read up on it mate, you've got nothing to lose.

I'll drink to that, but put down that IPA.

You look like a faggot drinking that. I can tell by your extended pinky.

Your brain is "overactive" as a result of compensating for the dulling effect of alcohol from the previous day, so drinking to stop that just increases the cycle. You have to get through that overactivity without drinking and it'll eventually calm down (like 2-3 months sober).

Quit a 4L of vodka a week habit four years ago. Have drank once in the last month, it just put me to sleep. Withdrawal was hell. Best thing I ever did. I take kratom on the daily at night for pain and to help with the boredom of no booze. You can do it

6 months for me and then 2 years later anxiety came back full force. On SSRI now, life is good

I am sober when I work cause I do manual labor/driving. I fucking work for UPS 9-12 hours each work day. Come home, drink as much as I can for an hour or two then pass out and repeat til the weekend which I look forward too. But then it gets here and I just get wasted and monday comes and I fucking hope I make something more of myself next weekend.

I dont know that though. I am critical of myself.

I only drink it cause it has 5-12% alcohol. I like the taste of plain old beer.

fuck kratom forget that shit. I am not interested. But how do you quit alcohol safely? I will try maybe a week of IPA beers then a week or 2 of regular beer then stop.

>SSRI
OP still here.
I took various medication for depression, anxiety, migraines
I had really bad side effects even suicidal thoughts and temporary psychosis. I never want to do medications again. I seriously thought I'd kill myself cause I was more scared of living. Luckily it passed when I stopped the medication.

Oh yeah, seizing is horrible. I was on a camping trip when it happened to me, it was about 100° out at night, no wind, laying in a tent staring at the ceiling, hallucinating (not in a good way), and all i remember is waking up at the hospital after having bit halfway through my tongue. Luckily my brother was there. That was the last time I ever drank hard alcohol.

A little gay for b but you really gotta find a support system. At least at first. No way you'll be able to stop on your own if you are at all like I was. Dts do suck btw

Kratom is amazing, a godsend. I quit cold turkey, taking passion flower and valerian in high doses. It sucked balls. Felt like shit for 2 weeks but was able to sleep on maybe day 4. The mental anguish lasts much much longer. Maybe a year or more.

>But how do you quit alcohol safely?
Taper off, stay hydrated, you may need to use Valium, but be very careful with it.

Careful with those, my brother was hardcore alcohol, got 5 years sober, was on antidepressants, and relapsed hard one day and the upper effects of SSRI prevented him from passing out (the normal way the body prevents overdosing) and he died from alcohol poisoning.

Yeah different body chemistry and head space and all that. Exercise helps. I love hiking.

>I will try maybe a week of IPA beers then a week or 2 of regular beer then stop.
Also as for this plan, I could do it if it werent for the weekends. I fucking lose my control on the weekend.

I know, but I have no friends and family doesn't care I drink a shit load.

I walk about 8 miles everyday lugging packages and carts carrying 100-200 lbs each day. I fucking exercise. If I didnt drink I could exercise non stop through out each day. If im not too drunk and lazy I can do infinite push ups.

In my detox prior to rehab, they gave me an anti-seizure medicine and some other thing that was supposed to balance the brain chemistry. I didn't have seizures or hallucinations, just insomnia.

Noted. I've fallen off the wagon and surprisingly found it not to be appealing for some reason. But I do miss an IPA on a hot day. NA beer sucks.

Maybe you need to not exercise. My job is physicaal too. I do refrigeration.

Do you drink at night? For a lot of years I thought in the morning I was just a little thick-headed from hangover and lack of sleep, then I got a handheld breathalyzer and found I was blowing 0.12-0.16 at 8am after having stopped at midnight. Don't want a DUI.

So I should tell my doctor? I havnt seen him since I started drinking heavily. Theres so much shame that I feel with my habits. If i were to fail him I'd fucking hate it. I dont want to repeat the cycle of letting people know my goal then failing like I did before.

Too bad I need the money and dont want to lose my job. I am young and havnt secured my place still. I have to bust my ass.


anyways. I need to go take a shower and take a break from drinking. be afk for 30 minutes. If the thread dies, oh well. But I will come back and read what was left here.

only on the weekend I barely sleep. During the week I sleep like 6-10 hours. I really have no life then other than work.

Yea, a cold bottled mountain dew is the closest I can get to that beer feeling.

Alcohol withdrawal is very dangerous. How much are you drinking?

woo hoo! NAfag here. 6 years clean/sober.

Family doctor might not be up to date on withdrawal medications... look up addiction psychiatrist (not psychologist or counselor... psychiatrist can prescribe the medicines). Just explain you're going to start AA and he'll give you the medications which should also cut the craving a bit.

discordapp.com/invite/QhK7UGm

they normally do a mild benzodiazapam taper

Do you sponsor others? What exactly does a sponsor do? That's what I didn't like about AA, they kept telling me I needed to "find a sponsor" and "work the steps" but wouldn't explain what was actually involved. So I just sat there in meetings listening to people's boring stories and stopped going.

They didn't give me benzos, it was Neurontin for anti-seizure and the other was called Campral/Acamprosate.

...

I can drink a liter of whiskey in a 12 hour period

I don't sponsor anyone, but I'm on the list of temp sponsors. never had anyone follow through with it tbh.

You can do the worksheets and shit online if you want to get an idea of what "the steps" are. Its super simple shit, and its sort of like.. I don't know a bit of a brain hack imo.

I'll write out another post in a second.

personally I can't like AA. The NA stuff is basically the same but a bit less christian god stuff. Works better for me ( as an athiest or whatever ) Saying the our father at the end of meetings bugs me. But w/e. I'll write another bit.

ok that makes sense.. I did rehab like forever ago for opiates. They used to use bennys to taper the alcoholics, but sounds like they have new techniques now

A sponsor is the guy from aa you call to talk you out of drinking. AA was way to religious for me. You have to do it for yourself, and if you don't care about yourself, adopt a puppy/kitten, and consider what would happen to it if you died.

Your going to need to taper or use benzodiazepines. Cold turkey could kill you.

OP here and I have 2 cats that keep me making right decisions. It works.
Also AA is not too religious for me. I am not faithful, but have no problem with it. Its just the fact that everyone has a shit load of problems and no one can help you when they cant stand on their own two feet. the meetings I went to absolutely sucked.

I figured. my plan was posted earlier.
IPA beer for a full 7 days, then regular beer for 2 weeks tapering down.
Only problem is when I hit the weekend I need something to do to keep myself on schedule.

otherwise I go to hard liquor.

I drink a six pack of pints and a 24oz of Busch Light nearly every day.
>pic related, I'm Asian that's why the image is slanted

So the 12 step model is at its core a "spiritual" thing. but don't run away just yet. Its really fucking vague and you can define that pretty much however you want. but one of the core items is that you believe in something bigger than yourself. Some kind of creative / loving / whatever. The force. mankind. massive aemabo god whatever.

Why? I think its a brain hack. But you don't have to do any of that shit at first. You start off working the first few steps, which are

1) Im addicted to alcohol and its fucking up my life. I can't stop on my own / what I've been doing doesn't work

2) I believe there is something that can help me

3) I'm willing to trust "god" ( or whatever super saiyan spirit force you want to imagine ) and do this dumb shit they are asking me to do

There first 3 steps. As a sponsor, you normally give the person some reading assignments, have them journal some questions/answers, and talk through their answers.

>There first 3 steps. As a sponsor, you normally give the person some reading assignments, have them journal some questions/answers, and talk through their answers.

That sounds gay as fuck. I never found a sponsor when I was going.

For me I honestly believe I am in control and will indeed quit on my own and forget I ever did it someday.

I just ignore the religion part. That whole idea was started at the beginning of AA in the 1930's when people thought depression or sadness happens because of spiritual reasons -- you let down "God." If you change "turn your life over to God to help you with your problems" to "ask a licensed therapist to help you with your problems," it's more tolerable.

Try to stay with beer if you can. It will slow you down and if you drink to fast, it will tend to make you vomit before you can do to much damage, unlike gin or vodka.

I've tried "tapering" many times but it just doesn't work. You lose inhibitions after drinking anyway, so you just tempt yourself to drive drunk or semi-drunk to the liquor store if you don't have enough. You need medicine plus distraction to get through the first few days at least.

Drinking every day isn't making the right decision though. Your cats want you to die of liver failure so they can eat your corpse.

I will try. Maybe next weekend I will manage it. I have like 4 beers in my fridge, but I have maybe a liter left of brandy as well right now.

Its just the weekends man. I hat emyself so bad every weekend. I'm glad I'm feeling it early on a friday instead of sunday.... Its a little too late to rid myself of alcohol this time.
What do I do tomorrow? I will wake up hung over, hardly slept and will probably resume drinking when I wake at like 3 am and have nothing better to do.
I need to plan for next weekend. Friday it starts. I will do something different, but I dont know what yet.

My cats fucking love me you sick son of a bitch. You arent fooling me.

Tapering isn't a method of quitting, you have to figure that out for yourself. Tapering is a method of safely avoiding physical withdrawal.

>Its just the fact that everyone has a shit load of problems and no one can help you when they cant stand on their own two feet.

I see where you are coming from, but that isn't the whole picture. It's more about - how do I cope with these problems without drinking. And yeah, lots of fucked up people at meetings man.

>That sounds gay as fuck
really? why - its just like.. doing homework or something. Some of the later steps are also pretty tricky, and can sort of fuck you up if you aren't doing them right ( eg: 4/5/6 ).

sure if that works for you. For me there are a few incredibly useful tools that came from NA. While I agree that the 1950s writing and mindset was a bit fucked up, it is never about letting god down or some shit. And you are also misinterpreting the "turn your life over" a bit. It isn't about helping you with your problems - or God fixing shit or something. It's about trust, really. But therapy is an important part of any recovery in my opinion. 12step has some good tools, but it really falls flat in a few areas, and honestly can be dangerous - for example, the 4/5/6 steps are about learning to look at problems, and just see your side of the fence.

Basically you learn to fix what you can fix, be open to change, and not stressing about the rest. Well, that works for many things in life, but it doesn't work for say - victims of abuse.

The point is self-tapering isn't going to work if you're doing it on your own. Better is to get appropriate medicine to avoid the physical withdrawals and stop entirely. A specialist in addiction medicine will gladly prescribe it.

Agreed, but he said he didn't want to tell his doctor, in which case he can either taper or buy street benzodiazepines

This. I pretty sure I need to taper to not die or have complications. I want to continue working and functioning like normal as I smoothly progress towards not depending on alcohol.


For now I am set on the belief that I have from next week to 7 months from now to quit. If i dont I will try again next year around the same time frame. Last year I was not as financially successful nor was I as interested in life in general. I am going to make it, just not tonight or tomorrow.
And I understand this trust and support thing.

This may be the key. I may have to see my doctor finally and tell him wahts going on. Having someone count on me getting my shit done will help. Though I will still try to quit by myself. Like I said I give myself a 7 month time frame from now to quit. Anything could happen. I could quit on my own or seek outside help.

Only thing about my doctor is he is very quick to prescribe something and think its done and done.

Then hes disappointed in me if it doesnt work out. Even if it was beyond my control like when I was getting consecutive migraines before I started drinking. I dont get them anymore since I started drinking except occasionally when I pass out and had no water.

>For now I am set on the belief that I have from next week to 7 months from now to quit

Cool I hope you can get through it. Life is WAAAAAYYYY better on this side of it, for sure.

It's like some crazy fucking girlfriend. I mean you'll always miss the amazing sex, but it's nice not to have her calling the cops on you with fake rape accusations, or throwing bricks through your window or whatever.

A big part for me was straight up behavior modification. Going to meetings 2x a week, seeing people I knew, seeing other people succeeding, checking in with someone every day, having something to do on a friday night... the beginning is really fucking hard man. I don't envy you. at all. You know one reason to sponsor people? It's a good reminder for the sponsor just how fucking shitty drinking / using is.

Your doctor works for you, not the other way around. You pay him, or someone does, just tell him what's going on and he should help you.

>God fixing shit or something

What do you mean, that's what the whole thing is about! Turn yourself over to an imaginary being to magically fix your shit

>step 3: "turn...our lives over to the care of God"
>step 6: "have God remove all these defects of character"
>step 7: "ask [God] to remove our shortcomings."

Everything's about praying to Jeebus to "fix" you, instead of seeking therapy. The other steps (8, 9) also assume your problems are the result of hurting others and the resulting guilt you would feel. That's based on very outdated pop psychology.

Better, to stay sober:

>See addiction therapist to discover the real reason you'd rather escape reality than face it
>Realize it's probably for a dumb reason, or at least it's something you can handle while sober
>Go to AA/NA just to spend time with others going through what you're going through, but don't expect them to fix or heal you because it won't happen.

Well thats all true.
I fucking would love to sponsor people if I could quit. I'd love if they took me seriously and I helped them.
The meetings I went to sucked. People seemed like they lie about being sober or were fucked up from the beginning.

I seriously understand the appeal and purpose, but for me I just want to redirect my precious time elsewhere as soon as I am sober. Its possible I will feel like it affected my life so much that I might want to speak publicly constantly about what I went through, but I think its more likely I will move on and think people need to help themselves.

well if it comes to it ill talk to him. I hope i'll see him next and tell him what happened and how I got through it and feel great.

I'm not really an alcoholic, i don't drink during the week, but i binge drink until i black out a couple times a month
It's pretty bad i think

It doesnt seem bad to me because my problem is I'm afraid to stop even for 1 day.

and btw if I made it sober for a week or 2 I wouldnt go back. I would have already been there.

>The meetings I went to sucked.
yeah I feel ya man. I'm lucky in that I've lived in big cities with lots of options. If you keep going you'll find meetings you like/can tolerate.

I'd honestly also suggest trying some NA meetings. ( we consider alcohol a drug so... ).

yeah that is how I drank. Went like 7 years without drugs, just drinking, but it kept getting worse and worse. was never a daily drinking. but at first like, 1/10 nights out drinking something bad would happen. after a few more years it was like 8/10 lol. fights. drive drunk. score some coke. lose my glasses or wallet. etvc

NA is even worse.
Those guys are there to make it appear like they are trying to get better or they are hardcore fucked up or religious.

Last time I drank and drove was years ago. A friend invited me over to drink and I did. then he kicked me out and I drove like 40 miles home. about 5 miles from home I side swiped a parked car and never did it again.

>1/10 nights out drinking something bad would happen. after a few more years it was like 8/10 lol. fights. drive drunk. score some coke. lose my glasses or wallet. etvc
So far the worst thing that has happened is calling an ex gf and fighting over the phone for 3 hours and not remembering and
Yelling about jews while on public transit and not remembering.

I've done some minor stuff but nothing with serious consequences. I'm starting law school in September so I may try and kick drinking all together. Even though most times i drink ill have a few beer socially, sometimes something comes over me where I lose control and can't stop drinking

that is funny. my cousin does AA and he can't stand NA meetings. Sitting next to some twitching methhead who won't shut the fuck up. lol.

Each to their own I guess. anyway, hope you find what works for you!

I'm alcoholic but I agree NA meetings are a much different environment. AA meetings in my city are mostly 40-70 year olds and some are pretty small, just 10 or 20 people who all know each other from over the years so you feel like an outsider, and a kid in a room of adults if you're younger. The NA meetings though are probably average age 25 and the rooms are packed (thanks to opiods). I feel better after an NA meeting of people with their lives ahead of theml versus an AA meeting of people who've fucked up their lives already.

yeah that sounds about right for the 1/10. nothing too bad. rest of the times are fun.

dude so many people in law school drink are you kidding me?

I get what you mean, like I'll have a beer or two, no problem. but then sometimes, and I don't get to choose when... it goes like this:

-glass of wine at wine bar
turns into
2 glasses of wine
turns into me talking to everyone there, talking business
oh hey, now I'm doing shots of some high end tequila
10 shots later I'm doing coke with some chick in a bathroom stall, and can't fuck because I can't get it up cuz I'm so drunk and on the edge of a blackout.

And... then the next day realizing the reason I was only going to have ONE drink was because I was supposed to go home and study, or finish a report, or whatever.

Interesting take on it. never thought of it that way. I haven't seen the big influx of opiate users - I live in phx so all the young people seem to be on meth, with the occasional heroin addict or total oddball ( weed / pill popper / etc ). Lots of older guys who are heroin addicts, on probation and forced to go, etc.

every state seems to have very different meetings though. like in the midwest people are way friendlier, hey lets go hang out after the meeting, etc etc.

And in LA, its like "weed isn't a drug" I've been sober 5 years. wanna go smoke up? lol

Yeah law school is really tough in Ontario so I don't want to waste many weekends hungover, i also don't want to ruin relationships or embarrass myself. I'll try some dry nights out tho, I'm worried about doing something dumb when blacked out.

Only time I've done coke was a dry rip then got drunk after so no regrets there. I'm kind of scared to try it again

yeah and only takes one felony to fuck your future law career in the ass

I'm a slob by nature and usually start drinking around 6pm. After 15 years of this, I am blacked out by 8pm and go to bed around 1am. My blacked out self likes to clean the kitchen and do laundry for some reason. I kind of like him. I've left questions for him on a piece of paper on the kitchen counter, and the next morning, he has answered. "How buzzed do you feel? -- not much", "Are you going to bed at midnight? If not, why not? -- no because I'm not tired -- went to bed at 1:45", "what did you do after 8pm? -- went to some websites, watched XYZ movie" etc. (Then I find those pay-per-view movies on my cable bill and have no idea what they were about).

I would rather try AA. NA is horrible. I see young people there, but they have nothing to offer. The older people are really really fucked up.
At least at AA there are people with some success in their life.

if true is pretty fightclub.