The point of these threads is to encourage people to look for new and interesting music. We do this by listening to and ideally discussing albums we've never heard before. Many of us already listen to new music daily, these people are in it to venture "out of their comfort zone" by listening to albums they otherwise wouldn't have, or just to have a good time.
>very limited amount of improvisation with non-existent amounts of melodic/harmonic development to make up for it >simplified grooves that take away any of the more subtle/dynamic aspects of jazz drumming (even though many examples in jazz show you can have both) >large arrangement that weaves in parts like a first year music school kiddie >a "variety" of different parts that play too close together instead of being more syncopated, thus not being taken full advantage of to create dance rhythms nor actual depth/complexity
It's literally outdated (even at the time), cliche dance music with no depth. The 60s equivalent of The Epic but not as bloated. Note how this album wasn't even that highly acclaimed when it came out; Downbeat gave it a 4/5 when just about any relatively decent record can nab a 5/5 from them. The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady didn't get praise until later by people who hadn't listened to more than a handful of jazz records and were too casual to fully digest the more intricate improvisations in real jazz music but also couldn't handle the depth in compositions of classical music.
Hunter Anderson
New copypasta confirmed.
Joshua Johnson
Is it worth it to listen to music if I can't click on some stars to catalog it?
>very limited amount of improvisation with non-existent amounts of melodic/harmonic development to make up for it haha 9/10 best new copypasta
Owen Jenkins
"music only real when rated" -christopher mccandles
Chase Cruz
...
Adrian Ward
I listen mostly to Jazz now. What should I check out aside from the big names ofc
Ian Harris
John Handy Live at the Monterey Jazz Festival
Hudson Long
the small names serves u RIGHT
Adam Hall
Who likes Gordon lightfoot here?
Jacob Ward
>All these /daily/ hipsters getting BTFO by based qwerty
Adrian Turner
please but your trip back on s
Lincoln Gomez
t. qwerty
Nathan Mitchell
What do you like tho?
Asher Green
Well technically I don't use a trip but I understand what you mean
Aiden Richardson
comment him in my name: "hey how do you like the new arcade fire? it sounds like abba and shits on millennials, who hate it."
Mason Morales
It doesn't really matter I'm open to everything. My top stuff would be Bitches Brew, Kind Of Blue, The shape of jazz to come and Blues and Roots. I much prefer 60's Jazz over anything else that I heard so far.
Nathaniel Watson
>can't refute the facts >i-it must be a copypasta Lmao who knew /daily/ actually isn't knowledgeable at all about music? Certainly not Charles Mingus. Check out like David Binney or Henry Threadgill.
Angel Hughes
dont u have an rym tho :0
Liam Davis
Somewhat all over. These are two of my new favs: Larry Young - Unity Joe Henderson - The Elements
Robert Campbell
I'm not trying to refute anything tho. I've literally seen that exact same post posted here before.
Jack Parker
I already love Mingus friend but thanks I will check them out, cheers Yeah I'm pretty basic. Looks sweet, love Jazz funk. Cheers for that.
Hudson Williams
>Kanye West - College Dropout It's alright, but needs a lot more polish. 6/10
>Kanye West - Late Registration It's like the previous album but mich better, with very good composition on the jazzier tracks. Feels a lot more emotional and interesting overall. 7/10
>Kanye West - Graduation Really simple and straightforward, with tracks that hardly evolve or go anywhere. I Wonder might be my favorite Kanye song so far, though. 4/10
>Swans - Soundtracks for the Blind This album is devastating, in a very beautiful way. There are some unnecessary bits here and there, but otherwise it's absolutely breathtaking in one way or another. I live for moments like nearly falling asleep from The Beautiful Days and being woken up by the fucking brilliant dance track Volcano. 8/10
>Captain Beefheart and His Magic Band - Trout Mask Replica Really interesting and wonderfully hysterical. It gets old after a while, and Captain Beefheart's voice is mixed way too loud, but there's some really, really cool guitarwork and arrangements here. 7/10
Camden Scott
Y'all niggas need some communism.
Blake Martin
this Usually when you see this album on someone's chart it's the only jazz album to be found, maybe accompanied by one other
Cooper Murphy
T H R E A D G I L L
Can you stop invading these threads? No one cares anymore
Lucas Lee
Maybe because people rather listen to the good shit than 1000 typical jazz albums retard.
Christian Butler
Mccoy Tyner- The Real Mccoy is a good album I heard recently
James Bailey
>Admits to not knowing much about jazz because there's other "good shit" >Insists a mediocre album is great >continues to argue with no knowledge of the subject area
Brandon Rogers
Is this generalizations guy?
Luke Nelson
wtf I hate Mingus now
Adam Flores
>Admits to not knowing much about jazz because there's other "good shit" Never said that. Don't even like jazz.
>doesn't like jazz >likes Mingus Exactly. Mingus is for ADHD kiddies like you.
Benjamin Perry
Yeah I know Mccoy, he's cool Looks interesting, thanks for that.
Justin Baker
Agree 100%. One recording of Relaxing at Camarillo has more jazz in it than this entire album.
Carter Campbell
does ADHD just mean "good" nowadays? If you want something truly "ADHD" listen to albums like Naked City or Meditations, you'd be surprised by how patient Black Saint is if you actually sat down and listened to it
Joseph Hernandez
Mingus is actually good. I don't fuck anything else in the Jazz world.
Logan Carter
to be expected from a mingus fan
Eli Walker
>thinks ADHD just means energetic Nope, it means that the music is actually very simple and often brings in other bits just for the sake of gimmick rather than making actually interesting music one has to pay attention to. Meditations is very well played by everyone on it with a lot of intricacy for a listener to dissect. Mingus is garbage. Spoken like a true adhd kid who can't focus on the more interesting aspects of music. Mingus is watered down composition for the kids who can't follow crazy jazz improvisations nor layered art music composition.
Adam Hill
all i hear is "it's bad because it's accessible"
Nathaniel Martinez
Then you're retarded because A Love Supreme is also very accessible and isn't at fault at all with any of those criticisms.
Christopher Parker
i don't remember ever listening to either of those desu tbf i also hear "waah tokenism" but i don't buy into that for a second all in all you're a cunt m8
Mason James
>i don't remember ever listening to either of those desu >participates in a discussion about music he has no idea about Don't waste yours and my time then.
Tyler Ortiz
but i made it about you instead of the album btw how are you user?
Matthew Johnson
Anything similar to this?
I've been really digging this album (and the rest of Razika's discography) lately.
what is your definition of "gimmick" and what examples in the music are there of any "gimmicks"?
Nicholas Rogers
a new element i don't like
Chase Thompson
Not that user but I'm just taking a shot in the dark
Tremolo picking I guess? Idk
Caleb Phillips
exactly, a gimmick would be something that could be taken away and the music would be improved, whereas that is not the case with The Black Saint, the closest thing to a "gimmick" in that album are the flamenco sections, but those are important to the musical progression and story behind the music.
Asher Roberts
Exactly, thus losing any crutch in the argument. Gimmicks are novelty values that might make a first time listener go WHOA! but then there's really no depth to it. An example being a lot of TBSATS's melodies which weren't super common in jazz music, but a closer look shows that it's pretty simple two to four measure long phrases that get repeated with non-existent variation. Another example is metal band Arcturus' keyboard sections that try to be all classical music style, but don't have the harmonic depth of classical as its stuck to popular music progressions. Not to mention that in order to fit those keyboard parts, the band simplifies its riffs greatly to do so, giving the listener a "worst of both worlds" feel in terms of metal/classical music.
Benjamin Wilson
>TBSATS's melodies which weren't super common in jazz music, but a closer look shows that it's pretty simple two to four measure long phrases that get repeated with non-existent variation There is a good bit of variation in TBS, and songs like "So What" by Davis or "Watermelon Man" by Herbie Hancock repeat phrases all the time with no variation at all, are you saying these songs are bad as well? because if so then I take it back but I think you might have a double standard here, many fucking classical songs repeat 2-4 measure phrases so I don't know where you're coming from.
Christopher Perry
paging darklands and flyingicewiz
could y'all post the cover art you used for me? makes it easier for me to update the tourney image, thanks friends
Nathaniel Hughes
ah not in the best mood i see i'm not arguing wtf did you really take the "discussion" part in the op literally? silly man
Jason Roberts
>and songs like "So What" by Davis or "Watermelon Man" by Herbie Hancock repeat phrases all the time with no variation at all, are you saying these songs are bad as well? Are you mentally retarded? They both have various improvisations on top of them that are the focus of progression. This is not something you hear a lot in TBSATSL which has far more limited improvisations compared to those two pieces since everyone HAD to adhere to basic bitch progression.
Nicholas Moore
There are improvisations over top of nearly the entirety of Track A, do you even have ears? Or are the improvised parts so well done you think they're written out?
John Collins
Oh no, I am doing fantastic otherwise. Watching /daily/ struggle to come up good counterpoints for one of if not its most universally loved record is kinda satisfying. Though it's getting a bit too easy now. I was expecting the posters here to be more knowledgeable.
Julian Taylor
Serious: do you look at all like this guy?
Henry Williams
I hope Sup Forums knew more about this guys.
Female voice, piano based duo. Chamber and proggy influence.
>one of if not its most universally loved record I wasn't wild about it
Luis Gray
And? Didn't I mention how limited in playing those improvisations were? Have YOU listened to Track A? Because the horn is almost always following all the other instruments, then does a tiny occasional rock music guitar fill tier improv bits with a lot of its phrases also repeated (eg. that sorta "raise" bit that happens like twice within a two minute period on the track.)
/daily/ confirmed to be full of idiots who haven't listened to the album they themselves apparently love so much. >implying I like weebshite as much as /daily/shitters do I am not the one who raves about overrated garbage like Fishmans and Daikanjyo
Landon Brooks
What's wrong with "following the instruments?" also > tiny occasional rock music guitar fill tier improv bits what the fuck does that even mean
Christian Myers
...
Levi Sanders
put your trip back on yellowjelly
Jackson Gomez
Dunno if you could say arguing with one or two anons btfo's daily but what jazz would you reccomend to peens like me
Mason Reed
Avant's no conservatory geek with a superiority complex (he only has the superiority complex)
Alexander Foster
Thanks for showing me this album user! It was a great audition
Anthony Reyes
There's no point to improvisation if one is following the instruments that closely . That shows that the musicians have no voice of their own, or are very amateur in terms of skill at their instrument. At that point jazz becomes no different from pop music because pop melodies also rarely if at all deviate from the limited harmonic progression they are allotted. Sure, there's always that subjective aspect, but that has no place in discussion, just one's own personal experience. Autist Math is the epitome of what I am railing against since he loves gimmicks. Jimmy Giuffre - Freefall Sonny Sharrock - Ask The Ages Evan Parker - Strings With Evan Parker Stan Kenton - City Of Glass
(Reminder that Clavietika is still pathetic, with or without the existence of this list)
Jason Adams
Hey this is really good And the girl is a cutie
Nolan Myers
But I don't think going out of the harmonic progression they were alotted was the point of the album don't you think? You don't really listen to Black saint for its improvisation rather its variety of colorful instruments, atmosphere, melodies, passionate playing and detailed arrangements.
Jacob White
But avant is female.
Aiden Young
>Stan Kenton - City Of Glass Good rec user. I just listen to the 10" LP few days ago.
Ayden Cooper
I think you're partially criticizing the album because it isn't what you want it to be. I'd say there's nothing inherently bad about simplicity, it's even remarkable to get your point across on an album as clearly as records like The Black Saint or A Love Supreme do. The "gimmicks" and lack of emphasis in usually rather common elements of jazz like improvisation (of which the album isn't actually devoid of) are in part because of he decides to draw from other influences and overall, is not trying to make a jazz album. It's a term that he didn't really use in his music. I also find it ridiculous that you decide to allude to getting "only a 4/5" from Downbeat and painting it as a low score but not even citing a review. Well, so did Threadgill's latest album which I guess I can safely dismiss since they're indisputable. >A Love Supreme is also very accessible and isn't at fault at all with any of those criticisms. Except the criticism you make of everybody enjoying TBS because it's accessible and they don't actually know what they're listening to, as if A Love Supreme doesn't surpass it in popularity and acclaim, but while also ignoring all the praise Mingus has gotten beyond Anonymous people on an imageboard.
Joshua Howard
where do drugs fall on this list
Hunter Adams
>variety of colorful instruments Not even the most colorful arrangement in jazz, forget other music with even more colorful set of sounds >atmosphere What atmosphere? Elaborate. >melodies As if its got sophisticated melodic work. psshhh nigga listen to some Bach or something >passionate Oh god, you're that guy. You still haven't described what this even means, what makes it more passionate than other guys, etc.
Damn, i should've known you were a /daily/ shitter. Who cares. Autist Math is still Autist Math.
William Bell
Could something like this be the next big thing in musics?
>Who cares. Autist Math is still Autist Math. ohh you're _that_ idiot
Landon Wood
don't really to listen to metal or punk or whatever but I'd like to hear more stuff like this if anyone has any recs youtube.com/watch?v=hoRVvLTXCkA
Nolan Stewart
holy fuck I messed up the copy paste on a whole new level just a sec
>Ataraxia - The Unexplained
I love this, but only because I have a mega soft spot for old synth music. Just as good or maybe better than Plantasia.
>Wrath of the Weak - Solace
Yeah I don’t need this shit. Maybe I’ll listen to the whole thing next time I’m angsting.
DIDN’T FINISH/10
COMET ADVANCES
ROUND TWO BEGINS
Awaiting recs from Transgod, Rodriguez, Mark And, and Comet. same rules as the first time. Must provide a one or more sentence explanation as to why I would enjoy your rec, preferably taking into account highly rated album on my RYM page. (~bulinger96)
Connor Price
also i forgot the trip. i'm on a roll today
Jeremiah Ross
>I think you're partially criticizing the album because it isn't what you want it to be. Not true. As my post shows, I actually like the music he took influences from. Mingus' take on all those forms is wanting. >I'd say there's nothing inherently bad about simplicity, it's even remarkable to get your point across This would be cool as shit if he was for example, doing the kind of negative space shenanigans Miles does. Or if he had a sparse arrangement like John Coltrane or Jimmy Giuffre on some of their records. But nope, idk how someone can do so little with so much. >I also find it ridiculous that you decide to allude to getting "only a 4/5" from Downbeat It's there to ward off the "b-but it was heavily praised when it came out!" shit. >Except the criticism you make of everybody enjoying TBS because it's accessible and they don't actually know what they're listening to Yes, but that alludes more to why it in particular is considered so popular. Nothing about accessibility being automatically bad. That's just reaching at that point.
Noah Murphy
Charles Mingus - The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady
Jayden Thomas
>atmosphere Many sections provoke heavy imagery, such as the reverb tinged beginning of Track DEF, the latin dance sections, the first half of Track B, and the muted trumpet solo in Track B as well. >passionate playing Sorry if this sounds dumb but I've never heard a big band arrangement fucking scream like I have in Black Saint, Mingus knew the exact time when things should slow, when they should speed up, and the dynamics of the instruments in said spots, better than most of his contemporaries. And with that a lot of fast, heavy climaxes become orgasmic and satisfying near the end of the album. >just because it isn't as sophisticated as one guy means its bad are you kidding me I'd argue that people like David Portner have made better melodies than some classical composers, despite not having any """sophisticated""" music experience. Sophisticated does not mean better. >instruments Ill be honest I should've said that I think the instruments sound very nice and fit the album. Sorry for the confusion "colorful" isn't what I meant.
Henry Anderson
I have a question, what do you think of Mingus' other works? Because Ah Um got a 5/5 upon release
Parker Cooper
Ray Brown >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mingus
Samuel Gomez
>the latin dance sections, This is based on shallow perspective as a person unfamiliar with latin music or latin culture wouldn't get the same experience. Subjective. >Sorry if this sounds dumb It does. Subjective. >are you kidding me I'd argue that people like David Portner have made better melodies than some classical composers, despite not having any """sophisticated""" music experience. Sophisticated does not mean better. >Avey Tare >better than classical composers HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA >I think Lmao
Dominic Jackson
Ah Um is quite possibly his best work, that's for sure even if it's a bit too bluesy at times. I don't personally care about Downbeat, like I said I only say that for the people who think it was amazingly acclaimed GOATest of GOATs back then.
Henry Nelson
>Not true. As my post shows, I actually like the music he took influences from. Mingus' It's not about the influences, but about partially wanting it to be a Jazz album and judging it from not adhering to what might make a jazz album great, expecting improvisation and big focus on drums and whatnot, "as many other examples in jazz have shown". >But nope, idk how someone can do so little with so much. What do you think the music is about? I'd say the theme it presents is carried out pretty well and with a lot of thought of how to present it. >It's there to ward off the "b-but it was heavily praised when it came out!" shit. It's just two sides of the same coin, if you think them appealing to critics doesn't prove it's good, you shouldn't try to make your point of it being panned by critics proving it's not so great. Then again try showing people a 4/5 is bad even.
Ethan Robinson
AHAHAHAHAHAHA
LOOOOL
Nathaniel Cooper
Another serious question, do you believe music is objective.
And you do know I don't mean Mozart or Beethoven when I talk about David Portner, I mean that I'm sure there were many classical composers that didn't have melodies as compelling (to me, at least) as his
Daniel Lewis
By best work, do you mean relatively or do you think it's genuinely good?
Matthew Young
hail satan
Matthew Young
I actually kind of agree with user. Never got the best-ever feeling a lot of people have for it for the same reasons he pointed out, nor have I heard a defense of its greatness that felt satisfying.
Which just means I chalk that up to not getting it, of course. Other people aren't wrong for feeling a connection to something you don't.
