Think laying off all the burger flippers and truck drivers will be a good thing? Think again. Did you seriously expect a large portion of the population to just except starving to death? This is your answer. No job, no school, nothing but sitting back and collecting enough money to live a comfortable life with. Who is going to pay for it? You! Yes you with the higher end job making $80k+ a year. Maybe that extra car or pool in the back hard is worth it to you to have to suffer 40+ hours a week while basic income recipients cruise through life with no worries while your boss is hounding you for that report, or you having to pour in another dozen hours this week for that small business of yours. At least you don't have to pay workers since everything is automated right? Oh I know the world is unfair! But you can't think of that now, one of your automatic burger flippers is acting up again. Better hurry and get that fix while your former employees with nothing but free time line up hungry, but full of money...YOUR money.
Think laying off all the burger flippers and truck drivers will be a good thing? Think again...
Whats your job, op?
They should have educated themselves and learned a marketable skill.
Yep, they can starve to death. ITT it would make our cities safer in the long run.
>muh marketable skills
>muh education
>I AM doing okay so its YOUR problem
The world doesn't revolve around you fuck stick. There are only so many jobs and most experts agree that automation will displace a large portion of the workforce, way more than that could easily move to another job. They aren't going to starve, they are going to take your money to live.
As population increases year over year and technology obsoletes more jobs year over year, a wellfare state with unconditional basic income is inevitable. The other alternative--letting people just get more and more poor--is too risky. It's all risk-reward. Comfortable idiots who won't revolt is the ideal.
>Starving to death
>America
So we give people money to eat and do nothing but fuck all day?
What about sustainability?
Think of resources, think of garbage, think of everything.
At least my job is secure within the time frame of my retirement.
>Comfortable idiots who won't revolt is the ideal.
I am sure you want a nice docile group of millions of people to just sit there and starve to death because they have no job but it isn't going to happen.
too. fucking. bad. This is the end resolve of automation. You think it is glorious that burger flippers are out on their ass? While they aren't going to take starving to death with no job prospects.
Find another job you lazy fuck you're not entitled to shit
>Find another job
>when the job market is already almost impenetrable for higher skilled jobs
>When automation will close off more jobs while raising the demand
l o l
Just say what you mean.
>I know millions of people will starve to death and I am ok with it as long as I am comfortable
Fuck off with your entitlement, get a job that won't be made redundant like the rest of us. Invest enough to be retired by 40 with a nice passive income of $100,000+. Only fucking brain dead idiots find themself in that position.
There
are
not
enough
jobs
to
go
around
Fucking move then. There is always work it just might not be where you want to live. Your totally ignoring the point of making your self redundant proof. Get that job now, don't sit there bitching.
you are missing the point of the discussion.
This is about the population as a whole not isolated individuals
>muh bootstraps
this But maybe we can have the millions of jobless move into Australia where there sounds like there are plenty of jobs to go around. I hope you got those spiders under control.
Make it require either work or well-documented volunteering with a nonprofit or government agency.
> But people can't get jobs; they will starve.
Come join my non-profit ditch-digging operation.
Problem solved.
It is absolutely shameful that we currently economically torture the working poor with threats of all sorts of horrible things happening to them in a climate in which we are actively and intentionally destroying decent jobs. It is shameful that our welfare programs are so complex that they _encourage_ only welfare queens to use them; the paperwork takes too long for the ordinary down-on-his-or-her-luck worker to use them. It is shameful that our current programs have a 'cliff' that discourages working harder. Basic income has none of these problems, and should replace all welfare programs except disability (for people who cannot work) which must in turn be purged of fraud.
If you really think the elite won't kill off the eaters when they're done with us you're smoking crack bud.
>Get a job that won't be made redundant
>your job
>watch as your salary drops from 80k to 50k to 30k in 15 years because everyone is going into your non-redundant field.
KEK
>muh entitlement
>not starving to death is entitlement
Typical baby boomer. Benefiting on the way up and on the way down, sticking the future with the tab.
has anyone in this thread, yes both sides, done any research on this issue?
how much would be necessary to survive? would simply chopping up current entitlements and giving everyone the same slice of pie be enough?
your country's pop. is literally less than a tenth the size of ours, you don't know shit
Simple enough: give the money to the garbage collector, too. Then people will make more money by being garbage collectors than by sitting on their asses. Hell, even I would do that if it paid better than doing nothing and I didn't have better prospects.
No.
There
Are
Way
Too
Much
People
Yes, almost. Might need 10-20% more, depending on the amount in question and on qualifying conditions. But the amount is comparable, for the U.S. at least. It would be enough to live with your parents or in a tiny capsule apartment. Enough to not be homeless or starve. Working literally any job would improve your standard of living, because you still get the money unconditionally -- no 'welfare cliff' discouraging work, no 300-hours-of-paperwork ensuring that only welfare queens ever get welfare. Much cleaner. Can immediately fire 50k+ government benefits administrators as well.
How does it go down when people don't have any money or support now? They don't rally for free money programs or starve, they just eat out of the trash, move, beg, or get some sort of meager welfare if they can.
Great. As automation replaces labour we move towards a post-scarcity economy. What's the problem here?
Eventually the machines will be doing most of the work so the'll be no choice.
Nah. There's enough resources. They're just being allocated inefficiently. Market forces are great and all but sometimes don't have desired results
>Just say what you mean.
>I know millions of people will starve to death and I am ok with it as long as I am comfortable
I'm absolutely not ok with millions dying; we need billions to die. The world can comfortably fit 3 billion, 5 billion with proper management and technology. We need to cut the population by half.
I was kind of thinking the top 1% pick up the tab
the us is not/should not be the first place to do this. you should start in a smaller place like canada or a european country
This exactly. Per capita GDP in the U.S. is >50k. Median salary is 26k. Do the fucking math.
OK.
Don't be part of the problem, be part of the solution.
Go an hero then.
Your aim is off; you hit the business district. Now the whole fucking country will starve. Dipshit. Should have aimed for Queens.
not anywhere with a lot of brown people though, maybe mexico or brazil but nowhere else
economists get in here
what effect would universal income have on the economy. what would happen to housing and rent prices. milton friedman called this the "negative income tax" btw
I have drove for a living for close to 20 years. It pays well enough to stay happy. When automation kicks in, I will take the 12 months ei and train for your job. I will be willing to take a little less than you are currently making as well.
Legislation will pass regarding driverless vehicles that they must have a sober person in the driver seat at all times
In your fantasy, you are eating at a fastfood joint.
economists get in here
what effect would universal basic income have on the economy. what would happen to housing and rent prices. milton friedman called this the "negative income tax" btw
also ontarians what is your perspective on this
it is the first step to post scarcity, but we are lacking a few key things. Food isn't an issue, as the midwest of the US can feed the entire world if it had the mindset to do so.
Religion? Usually just a justification for being right over someone else, giving you the 'right' to take their shit
We'd need to harness some sort of near infinitely renewable source of energy, that can be used by EVERYTHING. Thorium, He-3, whathaveyou
there's 2 issues with that. 1: how do you develop it and 2: will the powers at be allow it? they're quite comfy sitting on our backs
They won't starve to death.
They're not in any danger of that.
The real problem is simply this-
"Idle hands are the devil's workshop."
Bored people are loose cannons. Every single problem EVER is amped by an order of magnitude by boredom and lack of things to keep oneself busy.
This is a fact of human psychology, and holy fuck will it create a society of horrors.
>everybody gets $20,000
Who the fuck do we get to pay for it?
>Did you seriously expect a large portion of the population to just except starving to death?
ab so lutely
The stumbling block for those sorts of proposals usually comes down to the fact that the 1% have disproportionate influence in government and media. In many ways the state exists to protect wealth.
Jokes on them, I'll kill myself before I ever accept UBI or reparations.
If it's implemented, I'll put a bullet in my brain.
people would probably just take up new hobbies. we're talking about first world countries here not shitholes like the congo
Thats what they are going to do retard.
Being able to drive a car used to be something very few people could do. Over time the supply of most skill sets increases, usually at a rate faster than society can demand that skill set.
Theirs also an effect where the lower rungs of society do easiest work they can find for money, eventually everything is going to become a "low skill" job.
why not now??
>Hello Georgia Guidestones/Rosecrucian shill
this only works up to a certain point. it's easy to learn how to drive compared to going to a university
The only way to pay for it would be a massive tax hike across the board because not just welfare recipients get BUI, everyone does, hence "universal"
It will also strongly disincentivize work because why the fuck would you go slave away for at least 8 hours a day when you can spend that time doing whatever you want
A lot of people will continue to work if they like what they do or their work is lucrative but for the average blue collar worker and white collar drone well they'll see it is a free ride
>people would probably just take up new hobbies.
That's not how it works.
That's NEVER how it works, and every prison in the world with a communal population forces their inmates to work for that reason.
People ALWAYS run into trouble, regardless of intelligence, economy, ecology, or ethnicity, when they don't have shit to do.
Hobbies are sought only when desired, not spontaneously when bored.
Unless you're ready to let society do lots of coke and sex and party indefinitely, you do NOT want unemployment. You wanna get that number as low as possible.
It would do so well for so many people here to take some study into psychology and sociology. I know those fields get flack, but under the leftist bullshit there's legit numbers and data that can teach you a LOT about why shit is the way it is and how people will act individually and as groups when faced with various conditions.
Take up pharmacology while you're at it to learn how the brain ticks.
Could save your life.
Sure, but we also give them drugs to keep them docile. Then over the course of a few decades the "poor" will die out leaving the rich nobility, and the technicians to service the machinery.
Half of the existing jobs will be automated within 15 - 20 years. UBI is going to happen.
...
Keep them doped up, and docile. A few extra chemicals in the right combinations, introduced into the food supply should do the trick.
kike
>The only way to pay for it would be a massive tax hike
Wrong. Do some research.
Not 20k. More like 8k. Enough to not starve, if you live with your parents or in a capsule apartment. But little enough that getting literally any job would still improve your standard of living. Eventually, as jobs become more rare and real GDP continues to increase, we increase the amount. Or at least peg it to inflation. It's unconditional, so it doesn't go away when you get a job; there is no 'welfare cliff' like in the current systems.
If I got UBI I would just spend all my time golfing and fishing
I doubt most people would become drug addicts if left to their own devices
see:
Where is the money going to come from then?
t. Appalachia
I don't see how this is any better than the current system
Eliminating most/all existing welfare programs. And also firing all the bureaucrats who oversee them. There will be tens of billions of dollars in efficiency savings alone, not to mention far less stress and fear about what happens if you lose your job. Income crap on just the bare minimum, so you'd still want to get another job ASAP, but it wouldn't be zero.
>My parents fucked and didn't abort me but don't love me enough to support me, wah
Not everyone in Appalachia is a pilled-out hillbilly
Taxes can stay the same, with out having to pay humans for labor the business owners and corporations will make more money so it will balance out.
Same here. I'd have to learn how to play golf though.
(a) Current system disincentivizes work, because if you work you lose your benefits, (b) current system takes hundreds of hours of paperwork to get benefits, so only long-term welfare queens ever get most types of welfare and it does nothing for the ordinary down-on-their-luck worker, (c) ability to fire lots of government bureaucrats currently running the existing complicated programs, (d) only 1 program instead of hundreds of them, so people don't miss out by not knowing about them (related to (b)), (e) amount low enough that it is still worthwhile to get a job, but high enough not to end up homeless (might still have to move to cheaper location though).
>firing all the bureaucrats who oversee them
Those bureaucrats will be overseeing UBI
If you lose your job you can claim unemployment and then there's welfare for those who are just straight up jobless and always have been
Sounds exactly like UBI
basic income is a kike scam.
its literally just communism lite.
With basic income comes, you guessed it, population control.
Birth license. State sponsored sterilization. Mandatory education for potential parenting. Applications to birth.
The lowest of the low will work for the government (as usual) processing your paperwork. There will just be less and less as the gradient of stupidity shifts.
It will happen otherwise the mass of worthless idiots will grow by leaps and bounds and the system will collapse of scarcity...
Work is only necessary because as yet we're not sufficiently automated to eliminate it. Other than necessity, what's the point of labour? Work for the sake of work is an incredibly unhealthy attitude.
but at the same time those jobs would probably increase in demand and wages to the point where people would want to apply for them
i'm not saying that having nothing to do for long periods doesn't have adverse psychological effects. i'm well aware that many people need a sense of purpose and keeping busy. you have to come to terms that there are degenerates and whether they're employed or unemployed wouldn't change that for some
Oh god the old conspiritard standby - population control
What is there to oversee? You just make sure not to mail checks to dead people. The current system requires verifying a dozen different things for every single different program and there are over 100 separate programs. That's a lot of administrative waste.
...honestly, if I received UBI I'd go back to university or try a trade school and increase my skill base for finding a nice job to work at, and be able to focus on my studies this time instead of pulling a 9-to-5 simultaneously.
Or, better yet, start putting out a business and try to innovate new products/services. Because, y'know, the inherent danger to one's livelihood from failed business attempts is no longer an issue, since UBI would cover your ass.
Also many people want a standard of living above UBI. I'm not one of them, of course, perfectly happy at that level, but I'm certainly surrounded by said people, and none of them are the 1%.
Further progress. I for one am an automator. For now at least. Until the machines take over that as well, at which point their owners will own society. You'd better make sure we can still control them at that point.
i like to think if it does happen, universities will swing hard to the right as most of them are their on gibs anyway, and now that they don't HAVE to work, the only people there are the ones that want to learn/train
>, with out having to pay humans for labor the business owners and corporations will make more money so it will balance out.
So there will have to be a massive tax on business owners and corporations
They'll flee to more business-friendly environs
Do it, get a couple lessons just to get started
Golf is really top tier when it comes to hobbies
I fail to see how UBI will disincentivize work less than welfare especially since you know it's always there for you
Having a bad day at your shit job? Just walk out, you've got that govt check coming anyway, sure it might not be much but it's enough to live on
>Burgers and leaves commenting this much on a clearly bait thread
This is the future you chose
Finally, some fucking sense ITT.
They can suck dicks. For money.
>people don't understand comparative advantage vs absolute advantage
>people think that anyone is going to cry over useless entry level job having plebs being part of a market disruption
Reddit faggots looking for any excuse to sit home and be leeches
>implying that the Georgia guide stones wasn't real
Have fun faggots we illuminati nao
It won't be enough to live on at your current standard of living, or enough to save any money at all. It will be enough to survive. If you are minimum-wage and get a raise, it will be an actual raise -- under the current system, when you get a raise, the government takes it away by reducing benefits, so there is no incentive to work harder currently. It creates a "welfare trap". This effect disappears if the program is unconditional. I don't see what you are not understanding, though.
There's always hobbies and for-pleasure activities. If I didn't have to work for the rest of my life I'd still tinker with computers and offer to help with computers because I enjoy it. But not being on a deadline with a boss and a wage and scheduled hours and clothes etc...
How are businesses going to be able to hire new workers when they're getting taxed out the ass for UBI?
You've got to make sure people are getting their checks, and to prevent fraud, you can be damn sure people will find a way to scam the system
And then what happens during economic downturn and there's simply not enough to go around anymore?
The govt always creates massive bureaucracies surrounding everything, it would be no different under UBI
What happens to people who lose their jobs in Korea, Korea-bro? The last I heard you had one of the highest work-stress rates in the world and one of the highest suicide rates as well. They are related.
No faggot in this thread doesn't get that this will create 500 million people in harmony with nature is entirely cucked
And I forgot people keep falling into the labor lump fallacy
If just one person can give me an example where automation led to masses of people starving in the streets instead of automation being a multiplier of productivity I will buy you a beer
how many times must this be stated: taxes do not have to be increased for this
how would a business operate without workers
How much is enough to survive?
Is this going to pay mortgages too or just basic housing?
This is really beginning to sound more and more like welfare