Is anyone else driven crazy by this question?

Is anyone else driven crazy by this question?

I chose to post this reply.

Hence I have free will

you were going to anyways, since your mind is predetermined to reply in such a way to free will topics.

We are robots, robots designed to shit post.

If there is no free will and you believe in it you fuckin cannot change your mind.

The core of Christian religion is your free will (ok maybe it is God or God's love but..)

>polish intellectuals

>A fucking toothpaste

That only shows you have will, not that it was free.

you chose to reply because you're very opinionated mind felt compelled to share its views with others because humans are a social species because of an evolutionary adaptation dating back billions of years because organisms must adapt to the environment because that's how they survive because that's how they need to survive because organisms are great energy converters because the universe is in an energetic and chaotic state of persistent change because that's how things are

You're free, as long as you feel free. This whole discussion is just childish play with words. Don't fall for it.

But the human mind also feels compelled to hide things from other humans because there is a risk of upsetting them and we are social species.....

two paralel lines do not exist (especially with 0 width)

yet they teach you about'em in schools

.
.
.

school is a scam!

>You're free, as long as you feel free

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

>The core of Christian religion is your free will
God gave us free will, so we must be sure to use it exactly as he command us to. *tips fedora*

No, because I wouldn't be able to control if even if I didn't have free will, and we probably don't.

We have no free will. Though it doesn't mean your fate is somehow determined.

does not change the fact he said what he said because he felt obliged to share his opinion. this isn't a scenario where he'd need to hide his views

The thing that drives me crazy about it is all these "intellectuals" proclaiming that free will can't exist just because they can't explain it. They can't explain why the human mechanism has desire or emotion and robotic mechanisms don't. The root of being a conscious entity isn't understood mechanically at all - if it was we could build it - yet they're so sure that something doesn't exist that we all know does. We have desires. We have will. We make choices. Everyone knows it and these guys are doing backflips to say it's not there just because it doesn't fit into what they already understand.

Of course we have free will.

So if you feel 100 % like a slave, you're more free than others? Makes totally sense.

>The root of being a conscious entity isn't understood mechanically at all - if it was we could build it
This is the most miserably retarded thing I've read all week.

yes it does

You have free will, but you're going to do what you're going to do anyway.

this

You're a fucking moron then. Show me the conscious robot we've built. I'm ready to check it out.

Sometimes people feel obliged to do two opposite things at the same time. Then what?

> euphoric
> tips phedora
> so rational
> does not believe in free will
> goes to school to learn new things

you hate religious people, don't you? so what if they HAVE TO behave that way? why so full of hate? does not make you like one of them?

just you know, with different outfit, different symbols etc

>We have desires. We have will. We make choices. Everyone knows it and these guys are doing backflips to say it's not there j

Nobody is denying any of that. What they're denying is that it's done FREELY.

It says if you think you are free falsely you are more hopelessly enslaved. If you are a slave and know it, then you have some hope of trying to get free. If you don't know you are enslaved, you have no hope of even trying to get free.

If I have free will I made this post through my own volition. If I don't have free will then I was always meant to make this post. Either way I made the post. I'd rather just except that my shitposting happened than question whether it happened because I wanted it to or not. Regardless it felt like I wanted to shitpost so I did it and to me it doesn't make any difference either way

>Listen to Harris all the time for years

>Working one day and then he starts saying how much he wants Hillary to get in

>Stop in the middle of what I'm doing

>Usual bullshit about Trump being evil Hitler racist

After *everything* that Harris has been though with people deliberately misinterpreting him, pushing bullshit, lying about everybody and everything around him and what Hillary (and more importantly, those who surround/sponsor her) want, to hear him talk like this made me think he's being a total fucking idiot.

determinism huh ?

Well we are dumb enough to have free will according to our capability to reason. You see, if you were way smarter and able to calculate the consequences of your actions and determine the most favorable course of action... why should you do anything else ?

I mean intelligent enough creature to do the above would loose it's individuality and become just a force of nature. As it would do only the things providing best results and thus removing any choice from the picture altogether.

We however are just dumb enough to be spared that and yet smart enough to be capable of some limited calculation on our actions. Thus being on the perfect place for the idea of free will to take place.


And EVEN if this is just an illusion as the initial variables were set at the beginning of the universe, then what ?

We are to act as we DO have free will and do the best we can.


This question will be far more dangerous few generations in the future when AI will become a thing.


So.... buy a beer and get together with your friends.

Not really, even though I've spent dozens of hours learning about it and (I think) seen everything Harris has said on it.

Just one of those questions, like death, that I can't get worked up about because I know I'll never be in control of it.

Not to say it's not interesting and important to how you live your life. If anything, it removes much of the faith people put in others having the agency to change themselves and choose to be better human beings. It reinforces the idea that you are bound to be what you are; that all your potential in life for success and your capacity for change/improvement is already contained in your current being.

Maybe it is the ultimate red pill, but not one I have trouble swallowing.

It makes a lot of difference in many areas whether people are freely choosing or not. For example our entire legal system is based on the assumption that they are freely choosing.

No, it doesn't. You just don't have any power over it.

>if we empirically understand something, then we can very easily replicate or produce it!!!
You're a fucking retard. According to you, we should be on Mars by now and should have colonized half the universe.

Who exactly is this "you" that doesn't have any power over your body's actions.

you could only choose "post" or "not to post" - that's not free will.

I wasn't asking if people are driven crazy by determinism. I was asking if they're driven crazy by not knowing if determinism is true or not. You seem to be convinced it is.

nope, doesn't exist

>then you have some hope of trying to get free

If you believe there's no free will, then you can't have hope for a free will.

The word "free" itsel has no meaning. Free from what?

"Free will" is a feeling and it exists, therefore free will is something real.

You fucking inbred retarded knuckle dragging cretin, I wish you would kill yourself for real. You added "easily" because it's the only way your moronic argument can work. It's not a question of easy, it's a question of literally not knowing AT ALL what that mechanism looks like. Not only can we not build it, we don't even know what it is. Now go and slit your wrists and make the world a better place. It would be a great choice for you to make.

How do you know? And what is it that so many smart people who say it does exist are missing?

Thinking about free will is a complete waste of time, as was writing this post.

Fair point, and like I said I was shitposting but I'll try and expand my argument beyond just memes. The legal system is meant to dispense justice to those wronged, and whether you chose to wrong someone or not you did indeed wrong someone when you committed that crime. If you were always meant to commit that crime then you were always meant to face it's punishment. A punishment isn't suddenly unjust because you didn't technically make the choice on your own. You still felt as though it was your choice to make. Determinism isn't just people are meant to make decisions and then they make them. We rationalize our decisions and thus we rationalize the determinism that governs our lives if free will does in fact not exist. Like I said I made up my mind to do something. Whether I was meant to do it or it was of my own free will I still felt like it was my own decision so justice must be dispensed whether or not we live in a deterministic universe

your definition of free will is weird.
It seems like to you only god has free will but we are certainly not gods

You could believe there's no free will but hope for it. The word free does have a meaning.

Free will is NOT a feeling. You really have not studied this issue at all. Please read up on what free will means and what the word "free" in it means, perhaps on wikipedia at least.

Free will doesn't exist (factually), but life is still enjoyable so I keep living regardless

>this entire post
dah someone lost an argument

>You fucking inbred retarded knuckle dragging cretin
>I wish you would kill yourself for real
>Now go and slit your wrists and make the world a better place

meant for

Even if what you're saying was true we'd still have a problem because our legal system currently does have different penalties based on whether you chose to do wrong or not. If you are saying it doesn't matter if you chose, then we have to change the legal system to make sense that way. So no matter how you slice it, if determinism is true our legal system doesn't make sense.

Who said you don't have power over your body's actions? Question is about whether or not there is a free will, not free movement.

What does free will even mean?

>people who are angry are always wrong

No, because I'm not a faggot.

> so they finally started making games when you can make choices and observe their consequences

> you can change wallpaper on your PC desktop

> [more more]

NO YOU FUCKING CANT YOU BIGOT, SHITLORD!!!

MUH SCIENCE TELLS ME DAT!

The answer is easy. Yes we technically don't have free will because everything we ever do is determined by the chemical reactions in our brain and would play out the exact same if you replayed time. But in this case free will is now a useless concept, if noone or anything has it then the words are useless so instead free will means the illusion of free will, I have the illusion of choice in all my actions and this illusion of choice is what is labelled free will

I guess I just find it interesting that we think of ourselves as a "you" but that implies there's a figure at work beyond just the mechanism of the human body.

Not only are you a mad little faggot, but your rebuttal has nothing to day with what I said in

I used to drive myself nuts with this and eventually decided it doesn't really matter either way. Even if you believe in free will it still comes down to the interaction between what's inherently 'you' and the outside world. Whether you call it a soul or your genetic traits or whatever it still amounts to the same thing.

there is nothing at the physical level that suggests we have any inkling of will removed from reality. dualism is a failed concept because it only partially works by extracting conscious from physical reality (putting it in the same realm as god, not governed by our rules). attempts to explain free will on a physical level fail (people have suggested quantum actions as the source for free will, but quantum actions are random, so how can they be determined by our "will").

the issue is that many smart people, like many dumb people, like people in general, have difficulty in grasping the completely counter-intuitive. "surely I can think for myself and am wholly determined by my own free will, I'm not controlled by forces" is a cosy argument in the same way that "of course something designed us, how else would everything be so organised and structured, due to chance"

I argue against free will, but not will. Everyone has will, but claiming that is determined (at least in part) by something external to reality is nothing more than belief.

People will suggest that "then we can't blame anyone for their crimes", which is untrue. Will still exists (it just isn't free) and is essential for a functioning society. Society only exists because the concept of will and culpability are necessary for its function, punishment serves as the cause for the deterrence of crime effect on others. It's a necessary element for society.

I don't give a fuck you little queer. No one is talking about mars, you're a simpleton who can't understand what I'm saying so you misrepresent it intentionally and throw in name calling. If you were here I would literally kick your ass. Cunt.

I'm not sure free will or determinism can explain anything. You are free to do as you want, but what you want is predetermined and you work with a limited selection of factors and evidence with which to make your decisions. Even if there was only one choice you "would have" made, every choice you've made has been informed by your limited understanding and perception anyway.

Free will and determinism are both factually inaccurate but the spirit of determinism is probably closer to how things really are, withholding randomness.

You is just a word that has two meaning, you as in that person there, or you as in those people. There are no hidden meanings behind it. In Ireland most people even say "ye" (pronounced yee) to denote multiple people

>You really have not studied this issue at all.

There's your problem. You still believe "free" has a special meaning. Think twice about it and you will realize it will just lead to contradictions.

>Free will is NOT a feeling.

I guess you're the one who hasn't studied this at all. Start with literature how the brain distinguishes free and forced movement and how this free feeling can be stimulated with brain stimulation.

I should point out that much in the same way as god, I'm ok with people believing in free will, as long as they admit that it is on the same terms as god (based on belief and not evidence).

But your question was if I (collectively) am driven mad by the question. I'm not anymore, but I once was until I came to terms with it.

If the answer is easy why are so many very intelligent people saying we don't have the answer? I mean people who study this for their whole careers?

I get you and I'd concede that point. The fact that (for example) different degrees of murder exist implies that different levels of intent exist. But maybe that isn't so much a flaw but a recognition that determinism works in different ways. Let's say I accidentally killed someone. In a universe with free will, it would be just to give me a lighter sentence than someone who willfully planned out a murder for months. But why would that not be just in the case in a deterministic universe as well? Simply because I didn't chose to accidentally kill? I still accidentally killed someone and the victim still requires justice. In the end I guess it's a wash. I totally get your point and you're probably more right in this case than I am, but I can't change whether the universe is free or determined so I'm just fated to live in it how it is. Maybe that's what truly makes it a deterministic universe who knows.

Of course not. If you look at it scientifically it is obvious quantum fluctuations are the only place for free will to crop up.

it's a socialist meme to give you the illusion that you're somehow in charge of your life but in reality you're just a goy slave for the demiurge

When I said smart people still debate this, I didn't mean everyday people even . I mean people who really study this who absolutely know the things you mentioned. They are not confused about the issues involved. They know all that and still say the problem is not solved.

even if determinism was true, we will still live our lives as if it wasn't.

we will have no other choice :^)

...

*would

all I can do is facepalm. You simply have no idea what we're talking about with "free" when it comes to free will.

The question with free will is whether it's actually free, not whether we feel like it's free.

>whether it's actually free

Again, "free" has no Special meaning, you can't define what "actually free" even means.

If this is too complicated, than Keep on facepalming.

The answer isn't easy, but if you read the literature you will realize at a certain point it boils down to who has the stronger argument, and determinism by far has the strongest argument because it is based entirely on reality and the known.

Determinism isn't, dualism is. So far, every argument put forth by dualism/indeterminism has been dissected and disproven by determinism. Dennett is pretty good for some of this stuff, you should see some of his discussions or counter-points for indeterminists.

My point is they may be very smart, and their arguments very articulate, but that doesn't mean their argument is the strongest one. A debate can be uneven.

see

Really? There seem to be people even in this thread who say they are determinists and live as determinists.

Because intelligent people more so than anyone else like to argue over semantics. Free will technically does not exist, but the illusion of free will is so strong that we should just define free will as the illusion of choice. It literally changes nothing in the world

Yes we DO define what free means when it comes to free will. The fact you don't know that definition tells me you aren't even willing to do a 2 minutes google search and read up on it.

>Free will doesn’t exist goyim, so you should be totally ok with the way things are, you can’t change anything, hehehe

Seems legit

I try to look at it in a more positive light. If it doesn't exist then maybe I'm meant to make the change I want to see in the world

just edgy fags. they substitute "no one wants to give me a job" for "the universe has a plan, what will happen is not up to me"

I think just as many determinists are successful people who believe it must be fate that they are doing great.

Who gives a fuck about the semantic technicality, it literally changes nothing. Its the exact same as the fact that we never actually touch anything. If you shake my hand we don't actually touch at all, there's no contact between the atoms. Does this fact mean you are going to change the way you touch things? Are you going to change the way you act? Will sucking a dick no longer make you gay because technically you didn't touch anything? Does cleaning your ass with your hand suddenly become hygienic because technically you aren't touching the shit? Its all semantic bullshit argued by "intellectuals" for intellectual masturbation

and people choose not to

there in lies the aspect of free will. God told us what he wants, and we do what we will according to his will. because he knows what we'll do before we do it. God is infinite beyond our physical consciousness and thought. no-one is going to be able to understand that without some sort of faith to accept that even though we DO do whatever we want, things around us are always according to His will.
>inb4 God let's harm and pain happen
people let it happen, we would never been in this mess we are today if it weren't for original sin.

Determinists aren't necessarily Fatalists.

Semantics don't matter but the way you look at things makes a difference in whether you live a positive or negative life. You're clearly living for the latter. Try and find a little joy in life, even if that means fucking killing yourself right fucking now you faggot cunt

what was Haris' argument against determinism in the book? I read it a long time ago

Felt exactly the same

it's always disappointing, but you come to terms with it. sam harris is a man like every other, not a god or king.

bill maher has one of the stupidest anti-vac positions i've seen, for someone so well connected and prolix, but I can still dig his other points and accept that he has faults as well

As I said before whether or whether we technically have free will is completely irrelevant because the illusion of free will is too strong. Our individually ability to make choices exists and the fact that these choices come from chemical reactions in our brain does not change anything. Whether its "you" deciding to eat that sandwich or whether its your brain "forcing" you doesn't matter at all. Either way the illusion of choice to eat the sandwich is substantial enough to define the illusion of choice as free will

Wiki:
>Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action.

This is not a definition and doesn't mean anything. Again, "free" means nothing.
Let's say the world is only deterministic. Then according to many you have no "free will".

So free will must be the ability to show behaviour, that is not predicted by natural laws. I guess with "free" you mean "free from laws of nature". But is this "free"? How do you choose your behaviour? You follow your feelings - but you can't choose your feelings,so they are not what makes you free. You follow your logic - but logic is deterministic. So logic doesn't make you free. You could show random behaviour. But randomness isn't free at all.

This is why "free" has no meaning. You either follow organized rules (will) or randomness - and both things aren't "free". This is because "free" itself has no meaning at all and is a Feeling.

In my posts against OP I basically argued the same. That's why I said I try and stay positive about it because in the end it doesn't fucking matter whether it's real or not. The illusion is enough to keep me going and if it ends up being deterministic then I was meant to be a positive person trying to make change. In the end that's what I'll try and do, but whether it's free will or some bullshit fate guiding me it sure as hell feels like free will. You're still a faggot Paddy.

>people let it happen

How do people "let" tsunamis and earthquakes happen?

Who cares if everything is done with "insert word here". If its not " insert word here" the only difference is that we will have to create a new word so then its done by "insert different word here". Its just semantic bullshit like when people say they're using Linux and then those who say "actually Linux isn't an operation yourself what your actually using is gnu/ bullshit semantic crap that noone cares about".

You just gave a definition of free then spent the rest of your post claiming there is no definition. You are arguing that free will doesn't exist. That's fine, but it doesn't mean there is no definition of free. You had to define it before you could claim it didn't exist.

bleep bloop

It matters for reasons we talked about in the thread. Just one example is the legal system. Not the existence, but some policies don't make sense if we don't have free will vs. if we do.

No matter what you decide, it doesn't matter.
Either free will exists, or a determinist world resembles one where it does, so well that it practically does.

Think of it this way, too. In a deterministic world, information, culture, science, religion, relationships, society, pretty much everything - it all just doesn't actually exist, but is a procedural byproduct of us, autonomous, moist robots.

Everything occurs to certain rules, but we'll never truly, really find out, as the limit of knowledge is all that was revealed by the deterministic world this way.

By way of analogy, try to build software to run on a PC that simulates that PC. Or software to model our universe as it exists, in all of its levels of complexity.

You'll quickly find that there are swift limits to a system being able to think outside the box.

Not that it matters, since your reaction already been determined.
Or does it?
Who knows?