I'm a communist. Debate me.
I will answer any topic you have regarding it. I warn you though. I will laugh at whatever primitive misconception you have about Communism/Socialism. I don't want to see whatever intellectual inferior argument you have.
People who haven't even read Das Kapital need not reply.
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Does Communism stand for a world government?
Jew detected. Why are you posting on Sup Forums? Have you filled your quota of child-killing for the the day?
How do you feel about forcing people to live a certain way because you think you are right in doing so?
I've spoken to an anarcho-communist who thought that people would work just for the hell of it, for no reward such as money. That people won't be required to work in their ideal society but would naturally want to and would do whatever work they want.
How do you justify that kind of bullshit?
Why would anyone work at all? or in the best case scenario do the dangerous/disgusting/shitty jobs that absolutely no one would want to do for absolutely free?
Absolutely not.
Communism in its final state has no government. It is complete anarchy. Socialism is the transitionary period between Capitalism and Communism where the state is a tool used by the proletariat to bring an end to the bourgeoise .
Not an argument. You will receive no further reply from me.
Did you get to choose to live under capitalism? Property rights are enforced through the state. You cannot have capitalism without state force. Or else all contracts would be useless. Believe it or not, force is always present in society with a state that has class struggle, unless we take the necessary steps to begin a path toward a stateless society (communism).
Why has state of anarchy never been totally achieved in a communist country? Is is possible that such a state is not possible?
Why do communists always like to act like no one understands their simplistic and flawed philosophy?
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What's wrong with property?
Do people in the ideal communist society have no personal possessions? What would stop somebody from just taking your shit or sleeping where you sleep or taking your food in a communist society?
Do you believe in any laws?
You seem to imply force won't be necessary after that.
Which is in no way necessarily true.
Anarchist spain was the closest example
What's it like being a broke failure?
>fails to answer the question
fucking typical lol
I've never met a Communist who has read the entirety of Kapital. I doubt you have either.
personal != private
Would you consider Stalinism's Communism Communism?
Laziness as we know it now is a product of a capitalist society. People in modern society do not feel a connection towards their labor because to the capitalist, they are merely expendable pawns to be used to maximize profit.
Believe it or not, people in socialist societies do feel a connection towards their work. Garbagemen, doctors, dentists, construction workers, you name it, they all love the work they are doing because they do not feel the need to sell their labor to even survive.
When you take out the pressure the capitalist society puts on you to work to survive, people naturally love their work and work in fields they feel a passion in.
I know people who cleaned sewers in the USSR who loved their work.
Perhaps. We don't know that answer yet. But remember, lots of socialist countries made mistakes in military spending. These countries totally collapsed because of unnecessary military spending that was unsustainable. I believe a prerequisite to a communist society is having the largest imperialist nations turn socialist, then it will domino. And the conditions to form communism will be met.
Not an argument. You will no longer receive a valid response from me.
>people claiming that something belongs to them is theft
>the state taking people's shit by force isn't theft though
I wasn't arguing with you. It's a genuine question. Every time I see a self proclaimed communist get called out on a flaw in the system they say "You just don't understand it!" or " You don't know what it really means!" Like its some abstract concept. Why? I'm not trying to anger you I'm actually curious.
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what form of Marxist thought do you believe in? Marxist-Leninism, Maoism, some form of anarchistic commune? I would just like to know more before I ask questions and attempt to debate before ending up looking like a dumbass.
> Believe it or not, people in socialist societies do feel a connection towards their work.
I lived in a socialist society and I can confirm that you don't know what the fuck you talking about.
How will the anarchy of fully realized communism defend itself from an upstart group centralizing and attempting to take over?
Welcome to Sup Forums pinko, hope you fuck off asap you freedom hater.
Communism is a direct and radical response to the industrial revolution and the lack of regulation and standards in industry work at the time.
Now that the issues of the time of the industrial revolution are gone what point is there in supporting such an outdated ideology?
You're a nutcase m8
Who stops invading armies in a communist utopia
Property is amoral. It is neither good nor bad. What is bad, however, is having a small class of people own the entirety of capital and property to be used on profit alone. This small class then proceeds to use these profits to benefit their own class. This creates class conflict. Throughout history we see class conflicts arise. Lords between serfs. Patricians between Plebs. Aristocrats between commoners. Capitalist between proletariate.
Socialism is about ending class struggle and finally having a society where property is communally owned, and thus, becomes a good thing.
Laws are a tricky subject. There are laws in socialist countries, just like in any capitalist country. Generally the same type of laws. But you have to remember how these laws behave in context with their government imposing them.
Not an argument. You will no longer get any reply from me.
Stalin's USSR was a totalitarian state that incorporated socialist ideas with a capitalist framework.
Everyone please be patient. It's hard having well thought out answers when I get a new reply every second.
amas r for reddit
s*ged
State socialism is so centralized, how can it not eventually fail its people due to incompetence and corruption?
Isn't it better to try to fix capitalism and keep decentralized economic planning with competition? Fixing it with things like more worker protections, put limits on the profits of large corporations, encouraging small businesses, universal healthcare and welfare, striving for full employment by lowering the working hours, localizing production and great national projects, etc.
I need something clarified, why did Marx believe his home-made form of government was the end all of all political institutions? I believe in Hegel's metaphysical assertion of the dialectic structure of culture and history, but I don't believe it's necessary moving us toward anything finite and I certainly dont believe that it was meant to be taken so literally as to critique actual political structures.
Also Marx's Utopia seems fairly subjective, its quite pretentious to assume that his own personal political system would be the end of political evolution and that it would satisfy human nature.
Marx is fair critique of early 19th century capitalism in my eyes, but nothing more
>he thinks communism is synonymous with a stateless society
What do you believe motivates a communist society? Let's assume I go to a restaurant. Why would the managers push the staff when there is no profit to be made? Why as a waiter would I be in any hurry to get people their food? Without that profit seeking motive...what is there to push people to do anything?
How do you prevent the transitional socialist government from becoming corrupted and abusing their power? The amount of power you have to give to the transitional government is quite staggering and has led to genocidal violence in many cases.
Also along these lines how do you know when you've successfully transitioned to full communism? How would you then get the transitional government to relinquish power?
Smart guy. Hello comrade
That's not a very good example...
It was a clusterfuck.
I'm interested in learning more about communism. What kind of reading material would you suggest? If possible I'd prefer something that's a relatively easy read to start out with.
Why are you such a massive faggot who knows so little about communism? May I have your address? Do you do it for free? How many nigger cocks can you fit in your anus at once? What is like to know that your failed religion of communism will never succeed?
Ever heard of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy and do you ever plan to stop using it?
Most of added value is created by exploiting technical innovations and organizational skill of capitalists, not workers labor. If workers created a lot of added value there would be 0% unemployment because to hire more would mean more profit. The fact is even more obvious today when robots are replacing them everywhere.
On a sidenote, why didn't Engels know school-level arithmetic? Is kindergarden-level calculus the reason he became communist? Picrelated.
Who will you Holodomor in the US? Beaners or niggers?
>Laziness as we know it now is a product of a capitalist society.
>pressure the capitalist society puts on you
Socialism is laziness, it only works after a peak of capitalist production when society can do their fun little hobbies while slowly deteriorating the reserves of wealth induced by years of capitalist hard work. Socialism is unsustainable.
>people naturally love their work and work in fields they feel a passion in
You mean they are doing hobbies that are valueless to other people. Work isn't supposed to be fun or enjoyable, that's why they pay you to do it, so the world goes round.
What about religious freedom?
This is why nobody takes Sup Forums seriously even though it's big yet /leftypol/ is taken more seriously
The fact that you are on Sup Forums gives me the impression that you are a young to mid adult man. So you probably lived in late socialist period, and most likely in an urban city. I have many older folk who are friends of mine who marvel at the old days of the USSR. Where their work felt meaningful since they could survive through day to day. I remember one elderly woman telling me that she used to tell her son to eat her vegetables, because there are starving people in USA. But yes, I am aware that many Russians also benefited from smuggling and corruption. So your resposne doesn't surprise me.
The problem with these hypotheticals is that we just don't know, to be honest with you. I could give you my own way of solving that, but even Marx could not tell you. Marx wrote about how social structures work. How to get to a society that is stateless. Many just assume that the capitalist antagonisms like war, violence, and greed would vanish in communism. That doesn't mean that Marx was wrong forever. We just haven't reached that point yet.
I do not identify with any strain of socialist thought. I read it all. I want all forms of socialism to end their bickering to find a solution. I want workers to be organized. The petty differences mean nothing to me. Ask away.
In fact, Marx's work is not outdated. Many well respected economists regard it as very valid. One such person is Thomas Picketty. His own book "Capital" has brought Marx's writings back, proving his theories on wealth inequalities. I highly recommend that book.
Oy boy, this thread is moving quickly. I hope you all remain patient with me.
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> I don't want to see whatever intellectual inferior argument you have.
Cringe
>He thinks there is no hierarchy or class conflict in communism
Having a country such as China or north Korea as stunning examples of how Communism is against the people. How can you argue that this system actually supports the working class? Farmers starve while a group of politicians control the interest of the masses while collecting wealth.
May I ask if you would be willing to denounce your American citizenship and take a North Korean citizenship in exchange?
USSR nostalgia exists
Do you consider Cuba a successful communist state? North Korea? Pre-Deng China? Venezuela? Khmer Rouge Cambodia? Nicaragua? Any country?
>I'm a communist.
cool. which commune did you join?
Nobody takes Mexico seriously so kill yourself.
nice response man.
This pasta again how come pol has never seen this ? All of u guys baited af
Likewise. Now build wall.
Stalinist? Trotskyist? Marxist-Leninist? Maoist?
Be specific
How do you expect a perfect system to work for imperfect people?
thank you friend i only have a cursory knowledge of Marxism after reading the communist manifesto so my question is this. Does Marxism assume that human behavior is generally good but the wickedness of society is what causes the failures in communes and socialist countries or does Marxism acknowledged instead that people are generally corrupt until society reforms them?
>Implying I, an American citizen will build it
top fookin kek m8
>He thinks competition doesn't tighten profit margins to their absolute best
>He thinks free market capitalism cripples small business
>He thinks putting labor hour ceilings increases employment with no consequences
>He thinks centralized planning isn't a massive meme
I appreciate the genuine answer, but you have to realize that it isn't satisfying in the least. You're asking people to walk into the unknown without any assurance of it working, and in my opinion a lot of evidence that it won't.
Have you actually worked a day in your life? How weatlhy your parenst are?
You say that culture is meaningless and only economics matters, but don't you have to concede that living around communist hippies would be radically different than living in a Hutterite community
The best way to start is reading Das Kapital. Or better yet, this youtube serious on it. youtube.com
Then move on to more advanced Marx writings. Of course, Thomas Piketty's book is also good.
A very good question. Many different scholars would give you different answers, but the key is to keep society democratized in all levels, make the public educated on public matters, make them educated on scholarly things, keep the people healthy. You can't put a mechanism to stop corruption because eventually those mechanisms will also be corrupted. You must make the people educated.
You will.
I'm not the OP, but I would like to point out that the western world is moving towards full automation. Billions are being spent to save corporations money through automation.
Eventually there will be hardly any low skilled jobs. What do with the millions of people out of work? Put them in camps and have them dig ditches?
In nature we can observe that there is no equality. The Lion eats the Zebra, and there is no vengeance.
Communism, that is, the abolition of private property. Would enforce (through mob rule) a completely collectivized society; this goes against natural law. So now we must argue why we should have Communism, instead of why we should not.
Culturally it is a land mine: Nations, families, and religions all turn into husks of their former self with no nuance. With none of these things people are left with no moral guidance, for we have seen particularly with the black community that simply not having a father can ruin a life. We have seen in the Soviet Union that no religion can lead to mass extermination on an never before seen scale.
By eliminating these natural means of guidance the Communist creates a new child with no one to look up to, as he or she is raised by the community.
Instead of merely looking at the attributes of such a child, let us examine its hypostasis.
He goes to school and learns from his teacher: that teacher creates in inequality by becoming a pseudo-authority figure, with his superior knowledge. Just as the novelist consults the intellectual, and the jeweler consults the miner: so does a natural inequality form.
This naturally leads to positions of respect being created, and hijacks the mob rule of Communism. People naturally need a ruler, as the wolf needs a pack leader. If they do not have one, they create one.
This is our King, the ubermensch who has become the best in our society. He and his descendants will spend their lives trained to rule society fairly. As we have seen in the last 100 years of no monarchy, more deaths, than 1,000 years with monarchy.
You seek to violate natural fascism with your ideals, and remove love of ones people and nation from their hearts. You are a monster.
He read the first 10 pages, and watched some videos on youtube. Also he's probably 15.
>keep public educated
can't. people are literally retarded.
In a Communist utopia (Where there is no government) how would you deal with crime?
I don't have to debate you. I just need to linke you to this video and you lose.
youtube.com
Keep plowing on with your failed ideology. You live in a nice capitalist society after all- you can afford to do this.
Who stops an invading army in a communist utopia
Communist theory is more about whining about class struggle than actual rational economics. It's the type of material you get from Poli Sci professors - people who have never worked a day in industry in their life. If you want to actually learn about economics and how the world works, then I suggest you start looking into the Austrian School.
Are you Trotskist or Stalinist?
Here is a question: why are you such a faggot?
We're not all equal. Some of us work hard, some don't. Some of us are very smart and others are not. The only way to reach equality is to TAKE from those who CREATE and give it to those who don't. Sounds nice right? No, you FORCE those people to give it over by whatever means necessary and STEAL it from them. I would argue that capitalism gives people more OPPORTUNITY to better yourself from poverty than communist countries ever could.
The communist model requires far too many assumptions to work. Re: Occams razor. You need a class struggle. It has to be peaceful. Then people in power must be benevolent AND wise.
Capitalism develops somewhat naturally. It only requires enforcement of private property. That's about it.
It is very difficult for one entity to allocate capital efficiently. Capitalism breaks this problem up into bite sized pieces much better.
Capitalism is diversification of capital allocation/decision making, which lowers decision risk.
Capitalism has its flaws which are shown in migrant crisis and the formation of monopolies (like google, apple).
Having one state entity control production leads to boring goods. With capitalism people can buy more interesting products.
Just some of my thoughts.
What incentive would there be for people to actually work in a communist society and what is preventing people from just being free riders?
Why is it that every communist regime so far has been so repressive and totalitarian?
How can communism work when people tend to feel greater attachment to their race and ethnicity than their economic class?
Marxism's goal of eliminating the appropriation of surplus labor is inherently flawed. Instead, an economy's goal should simply be to ensure the highest standard of living for the people. Marxism's focus on exploitation fails to take this into account. A communist society in which nobody is being exploited, but the standard of living is low, is far worse than a capitalist society in which exploitation is high, but the standard of living is also high. Capitalism always results in the higher standard of living
Killed more than the Nazis in fact probably the most bloody ideology ever on this planet and you still have idiots to this day that wanna try it again -_-. What excuse do you have? Or fuck it just visit Venezuela and look at your "paradise" and then kill yourself.
If Communism is inherently involuntary, because of the abolition of property rights, then why would it be the ideal political framework?
>perfect system
Do you actually think communism is a perfect system? If it worked i practice would you live in a communist society?
If people are economically equal they will find other natural inequalities to fret about. The truth is people are naturally predisposed to be more satisfied with the class they fall into. Everyone claims they want to be a millionaire but many people will live life in poverty and be just as content, while others will fight tooth and nail to the top position because they will not be satisfied until they become the very richest.
>only answering questions that put communism in a positive light or can be critiqued to do so
The People's Army numbnuts.
Which if I might add is far more reasonable than what anarcho-capitalists suggest that private armies will take care of everyone out of self interest. I mean for fuck's sake... A private army will make themselves the government and the whole concept of no government interference goes out the window.
We're not there yet
Every communist is either a complete fool or a monster. Which one are you?
For bonus points explain why every communist society completely collapses and why they have to commit massive abuses of human rights.
Not an argument. You will not receive any further reply.
Socialist societies no longer have to come through force. I believe now. with how Europe is moving towards a more democratized mixed economy, countries are moving to voluntarily end their class struggle. Hear me out, I know what you're thinking. But consider that years from now, labor will be automatized. We are all moving towards a trend where robots and machinery do most of our labor. Marx wrote about this in "Crisis." Now, eventually more people will be unemployed because of this than can be provided through corporate profit or taxation. Society will have to adopt socialist policies.
Now, I will tell you that you keep your guns in a socialist society, despite what you may have heard from some right wing sources. Marx wrote about how a well armed people is necessary for any society.
Friends, if I skip your reply, it may be because I answered a similar question, or you're posting blatant troll posts. I will do my best to answer everything though.
Should I switch to a synthetic motor oil, or stay with conventional?
its not unknown
if i found myself in the theoretical communist utopia i would do exactly that: build up supplies and take over the nearest commune
good job marxfaggot you just precipitated the return of feudalism
How can a communist/socialist economy rationally allocate resources without price mechanism between capital goods?
Protip: it cant.
> I have many older folk who are friends of mine who marvel at the old days of the USSR. Where their work felt meaningful since they could survive through day to day
You really implicate something non-existent here. Do you think that economical policies make your job as a cashier or a cleaner suck less? Kek. You go to work early as fuck and do stupid shit all the same. It's just your paycheck is taken out of the equation. Wich led to the situation where PhD's were lower on the social ladder than clerks.
Clothes always sucked, toilet paper didn't exist, food was shit, you was always humiliated and offended whereas in the US you are always smiled to and asked to visit some more.
How is communism relevant in the first world when the majority of our working class now resides in the third world? Also, I work for a company, but I also own my own side business. Does that make me the proletariat or the bourgeois?
Communism was made by jews and killed 200m+ people in the 20th century.
By 2030 we will have automated cars. This will happen. The industry is betting billions on it.
They already have automated big rigs.
What happens to the 6 million truck drivers?
They aren't all going back to school to be robot engineers.
What part of communism appeals to you? Was it the bread lines or complete erosion of society?
But there isn't a state at this point. This is the utopia end state of communism so who trains, equips, funds, commands etc this People's Army?
If they want to get the products others made with their own labor, they fucking should be. Entitled fucks are too noble to learn how to give value to their fellow men?
Are you aware that being a communist is a thoroughly un-communist quality?
The most communist thing you could do became the greatest capitalist.
I mean, if we are to take Marx on his word that Socialism and Communism will arise out of capitalism, then isn't it kind of counter intuitive to be a communist? Wouldn't being a communist rush the process and not allow society to evolve as Marx foretold?
Communists are a walking contradiction because they unwittingly stand for the exact opposite of what Marx wanted or wrote about.
If you were really an adherent to the ideology then you wouldn't be skipping steps, you would be a capitalist.
>confirmed for not having worked a day in his life