I've never been religious but it's always fascinated me and the one thing that's always not made sense about it to me...

I've never been religious but it's always fascinated me and the one thing that's always not made sense about it to me is free will. If God knows absolutely everything you are ever going to do, down to the smallest detail, and because everything goes according to God's plan, making it predestined, how can free will exist? If somebody creates you knowing exactly what you're going to do, you aren't making those decisions, you were just made to think you are, right?
I'm not trying to be a fedora tipper or anything like that, it's just one thing I genuinely don't understand.

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First off, there's no god. Like, obviously. Second, there's no free will. All we are is all we know, as it's been said. If I threw, i dunno, a paintball at a wall would the paint splatter out all random? No. It would obey the laws of physics. If you knew the EXACT thickness of the paintball shell, amount of paint in it, thickness of paint, speed and angle of throw, toughness of wall, humidity in air etc, you'd be able to predict where the paint goes. Same with us. If I asked you your favorite color or if you wanted to go to a movie tonight, you'd THINK you just answer how you feel, but if I knew every experience of yours, every word you heard, every argument you had, every sight you've seen throughout your whole life, it would be possible to predict your every thought and move. We are math.

Or.......
There is a "God" but not like you've heard. Forget old man in the sky and think "formless abstract concept." But what does that mean? Picture this, I knock you out and you're in a coma (sorry). You "awaken" inside your coma with no memory. Not even language. All you know is that you exist and you exist in darkness. Well after a while you realize you can create inside your reality (cuz you ARE dreaming after all). And you don't remember ANYTHING at all, and the only one thing you've ever known is darkness so...what would you create? Maybe just the opposite of what you know. Light? Like it said...let there be light. Then eventually you want to make something inside your coma that also KNOWS that IT exists. Something, in your own image...but when you make something (a creature) it just does what you say. It does whatever you think since, you know, it's YOUR dream. It's YOU after all. Sooooo..... You create a creature, you create its entire life, birth to death and you create EVERY SINGLE OPTION of everything that could ever happen to it. Moment to moment. Then, even though you (God) know everything that could ever happen to a creature (also you, figure that one out) that creature (who is you AND God at the same time) also has free will. See? Simple ;P

Our life is a middle point of determinism and free will. God knows everything but we are a part of him, as Paul the Apostle said "In God we live, move and exist".
Also, ignore this atheist kid . God is the logical pressupost of our physical world.

The problem is I'm the same person who wrote these and they both seem equally probable to me and I have no idea what to "believe." I kind of believe both.

Gnosticism is one of the worst form of revolutionary ideals. Just stop.

God is only "logical" if you can't except science and that there are things we just don't know yet. But the earth sure as fuck isn't 6,000 years old, no one came back from the dead and walked on water or floated away, there was no fucking ark and snakes don't talk you dumb shit.

You know bible is a fucking book of moral teaching, right? And yes, god is the logical pressupost of everything, otherwise we just keep going backwards forever in cause and effect.

It's a limited free will. You make the decisions to a point. God won't force you to follow Him. Until you follow Jesus however you will be a slave to your own sin. That's why you see the same porn threads being posted everyday. It's sad really that people don't understand that they have more life out there. They instead believe the lie of "if you become a Jesus freak then you won't have fun.". Been there done that.

Romans 10:9-10

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Western civilization is over. My fucking God.

There are two different schools of thought within Christianity about whether our will is truly free. The argument that all of existence is predetermined is called "Calvinism" if you want to research it.
The opposing and in my opinion more sensible view is that we do have free will, however despite that, an omnipotent entity will already know exactly what decisions we're going to make anyway - in the same way a father already knows how his young son is going to respond before he speaks.

Catholicism isn't Christianity buddy so it makes sense why you would post one of the heads as such.

Find God

It's sad that people have such low opinions of themselves and others that they believe in a concept of "sin" and that that is what is wrong with us and the only way to get better is to join a cult and give your lives and money to other people. You weak pathetic dumbshit. If you really think for yourself and ask basic questions "why is there religion? Who benefits from these beliefs? Where does my money go?" Etc, even a 5 year old would call BS. You have the brain of a child. Santa, Zeus, the Easter bunny, the tooth fairy, 100s and 100s of other gods, you'll say are all made up and fake...BUT OH!!! JEEEESUUUUSSS, he's FOR REAL!!! People wouldn't just make that stuff up, right? I mean why would powerful and rich people force a religion onto the masses that has a god who says stuff about how being meek and poor are totes awesome and stealing and being rich are bad? Gee...I wonder....

Goosebumps, The Scarecrow Walks at Midnight. Chapter 6.

Yeah. It is. Christian just means believe Jesus was the son of God. All Catholics are Christian not all Christians are Catholics you stupid fuck. But you're religious so what should I expect. You're seriously stupid. Please stop being stupid, you're ruining shit for the rest of us.

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That's what someone with 5 minutes of knowledge on the subject might say, I guess. I would refute you but you don't actually seem to have anything useful to say other than a sudden devolution into Ad Hominem in the second half of your post.

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>Jesus promised to rid the world of wicked men
>Bilderberg, Clintons, Kim Jong Un, etc...
>Odin promised to rid the world of frost giants
>global warming
just saiyan...

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Hey, eat a dick dumbshit. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

God knows everything because all moments in time are present for him simultaneously. Free will is part of the plan. Just because God can see you stray does not mean he causes it.

Even I could see an inevitable collision between a train and a car from a higher vantage point before it happens, but that knowledge doesn't mean I caysed it.

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No. Some religions are utterly false, perhaps, but many have some reflection of truth. I guess partial truth could be defined as falsehood, but thst's of interest only to atheists driving their own agenda.

If you created the car and train and put them in a position where they'd crash, you definitely did cause the crash.
God's plan is never violated right? So all events are preordained and God created the universe and set it off knowing that.
How were Adam and Eve wrong to eat the forbidden fruit? God told them not to but they didn't know it was wrong to disobey him. It's like giving a child a loaded gun and getting mad when it shoots something.

If you built the tracks and don't stop it then, yeah, it kinda fucking does you dumb fuck.

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Destiny? Is that you?

>but many have some reflection of truth

According to whom? You? ? All religion is bullshit, as far as science is concerned.

Wrong. Our decisions are not preordained. Again, just because God is omniscient doesn't mean he makes the decisions for the individuals and runs them like computer programs. As for the analogy I used, I must point out the purpose of an analogy is to illustrate. It is nonsensical to start to "interpret" an analogy as if it were something more than a simple illustration to aid approaching a more difficult concept.

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Science has nothing to say about God or the veracity of religions. Unfortunately this simplistic misconception exists because of general ignorance and confusing a belief system like Young Earth Creationism with the Bible itself.

It never ceases to puzzle me that people find these very silly quips worth framing. Says a lot about the lack of knowledge and understanding of today's atheists.

What leads you to believe in any religion or God if not for evidence?

The point is that science is the process of looking at evidence to form a conclusion.

With no legitimate evidence, there's no reason to believe in something.

>Science has nothing to say about God

Kek.
Consider football players. They take hits to the head and due to trauma, certain brain areas don’t work as they should. The cells die off. This has an effect on their personality. We can establish a relationship between structure of the brain an function.

Now consider death, all organs die, brain included. Yet, in heaven you retain all the traits that make you a special unique child of God?

It's just a fun quote.

>Says a lot about the lack of knowledge and understanding of today's atheists.

How does that picture say anything like that in any way?

The analogy breaks down when you deal with someone who put the events into practice knowing the exact outcome. I wanted to point out that you need a better analogy next time.

But how are things not preordained? Are you able to deviate from god's will? Given God's omnipotence you can't. And if God knows exactly what's going to happen, the exact choice you are going to make an infinite amount of time before creation, how can you say that he doesn't have control over those decisions. If God makes a human, puts him into a specific family in a specific time and place, with all the events in that humans life already known to him, the events are part of that person's destiny is it not? The path can't deviate by a single fraction as he's all knowing, he can't know anything wrong. So a humans life is predetermined and because of that free will can't exist, only the illusion.

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Science is limited to observing the physical universe. If boiling point type of scientific evidence is all you accept as legit6mate, well, you're stuck there then. That evidence doesn't say anything beyond its restricted scope. So either you stick strictly to those claims hard science can provide or you allow yourself to be intellectually dishonest and make claims that cannot be proven by the criteria you take pride in. A lot of atheists do the latter, sometimes presumably because they simply aren't well-read and operate under hubris. Many such cases.

That's a strawman. In heaven we are glorified.

Framing and posting all these silly quotes implies the person doing the framing and posting finds them persuasive and insightful.

>Science is limited to observing the physical universe.

That's literally all there is. That's reality. Everything else is called fiction.

I think you're reading into it a bit much, it's just a fun quote that people like to laugh at.

But it's not like it's a complete joke either, it's a funny comment making fun of the mindset of religious people.

No, the analogy doesn't "break down" unless you twist it with interpretation that arbitrarily highlights presumed aspects while ignoring others. The point is knowledge of an event and causing said event are not tied together.

You continue insisting on your false premises in your reasoning. For some illogical reason you, for example, claim God's omnipotence means he makes everyone's decisions for them. It simply doesn't follow. I'm afraid this exchange will be fruitless because of these illogical assumptions. Again, all the events of your life are known to God in one eternal "moment" because he is outside of time, not because he selected everything for you beforehand.

Well, in that scenario it is both that you are making those decisions and that you believe that you are making those decisions, exactly because that's how things were designed to be. I mean, in that scenario, there is only one path for you to take, the one created specifically for you. You do exactly as you would, and you believe what you do. There are ways to allow for "free will" or freedoms of a sort in varying ways, but they require various modifications. Some major, some minor, but most probably not what you're looking for.

Note that I have no said whether God exists or not, just that in the given scenario, such and such is. Though, in a purely deterministic world, I imagine I could be most free despite my lack of freedom. Simultaneously, in a purely indeterminate world, I imagine I could also be mostly restrained.

Not a believer in God.
For me it's about spiritual growth, most people make fear based choices, which are easy to predict, however when an individual starts making love based choices true free will is being activated.

Wait, I'm interested in hearing why insisting that God's omnipotence should mean that he makes decisions for all agents is illogical and does not follow. I do not understand.

Well, if you go outside the Abrahamic religions, it gets a little easier to live with. I'm a fan of Greek mythology, myself, and the Greek gods are imperfect, flawed characters. They have limited spheres of interest and influence. They fight over petty bullshit, and they have people they just like more than others. The gods are examples to follow and beacons of strength for those that believe, but there is enough room in the Greek system for free will. Extraordinary men may even rival the gods, though it always ends in disaster shortly after. The Greek lesson is to strive for the stars, but remember the gods when you get to the top.

Basically he's saying you make the choices, you take responsibility for them.

Why? What is/are the reason/s? If there are any, why are they the reasons?

Yep, I figured that out when I was 10. Never went to church again.

Can anyone take responsibility for our actions?
The simple truth is No, not a god; only the individual can because without free will/cause and effect its almost impossible to grow.

Isn't anyone someone other than god? Why can't a god take responsibility for our actions? Why is it almost impossible to grow without free will or cause and effect, or, why do you need a causal relationship or freedom of will for growth? What makes it implausible? What about a god, a supposed self-causing being outside of time? Do gods grow? Aren't gods responsible for being the first cause? Why or why not?

I cannot find anything thus far in this thread to cause me to reason that what you say is such a simple truth.

Because for me the idea of God would make me a toy, that after evolving to a point my existence becomes obsolete.
Evolution requires us to realise our potential.

>the idea of God would make me a toy, that after evolving to a point my existence becomes obsolete
I don't understand
>Evolution requires us to realise our potential
Well... does evolution really require us to realize our potential?

I dont call it god, I call it universe and I think the universe once was everything, one big piece, but splittet it self into many small particles, so it could see it self and experince it's beauty. In my opinion we all are still one, and living through every life ever lived, withouth remembering the past perspectives we already lived, so it doesnt get boring. You are me, and I am You, but only subconsciously we know, what role we have to play this time. I think out there is a dream for everyone. A dream, when started living, just feeling right. I think those dreams are predestinated, but we all can decide, whether we'll search for and live our dream.

Free will.... We can choose to evolve or stagnate, it's an open ended experiment.
Only love is fundamental.

>Free will
How does that explain why evolution really requires us to realize our potential?
>We can choose to evolve or stagnate
In what way?
>Only love is fundamental
Is it? Why? How?

You seem to be looking for answers outside of yourself, when really they lie within.... Consciousness/love... Choosing to become a human being of values.

This user is correct.

It's good to see determinism getting more publicity.

With the greatest of respect? Do you have an opinion?

But that still doesn't answer the questions I have regarding the above. I'm only left to conclude that there are none and that something is amiss regarding them. I can only raise more questions towards answers lying within, as this does not really satisfy my intention to obtain an answer that does not belong my my agency, but yours, as you are saying what you are saying.
>Consciousness/love
This does not explain anything in particular. Please tell me why what I asked is how you say it is, or is another way.
>Choosing to become a human being of values
Why am I not a being of human values? What are human values? Am I devoid of values?

What about quantum mechanics? If consciousness is based on it, free will would be possible. There'd only be probabilities, like electrons in an atom, where we only can calculate probabilities, for where an electron would be in any moment

A lot of different people come up with a lot of different 'rules' about the way God operates. is he omnisicient? Omnipresent? Omnipotent? Even though people claim he is all these things, the stories presented in the Bible paint a different picture. In the end, those details aren't as important as the life lesson the stories are supposed to teach you.

There's something you need to know about quantum mechanics.

It's not random. It's very deterministic. It is the nature of classical interpretations and being forced to attempt to explain them from that lens that makes quantum mechanics seem random.

Im not a believer, but if it were real, I would think that he knew what was going to happen. But the catch is, there are a few thousand different paths you can take in life. Just one mans opinion...

You sound like you're at the age where the logical part of your brain is starting to develop. I'd recommend reading a lot of old classic novels, shit will do wonders for your critical thinking skills, which many people are deficient in.

This might be helpful, keep an open sceptical mind, keep asking questions.
youtu.be/NWqxqOCoWVg

couldn't have put it better.

People always bring this up as a counter to determinism and claim that it is mathematically impossible to calculate certain things due to quantum mechanics, but it's a weak argument to make because it assumes that you perfectly understand all factors at play and are accounting for them (which you do not and are not).

Everything you think and do, is the logical conclusion to events that happened at the beginning of time.

You are an actor playing out a script written by someone else on a stage put up by someone else.

You literally just described religion. Kill yourself

Nope you have free will, your a human being with great potential.

look up
calvinism vs arminianism

I've read a lot of classical novels. My asking of what I am asking is due to the fact that I saw an issue with the initial post I replied to; they argued that there were false premises, and instead attacked or addressed the axiom that the other user began with. So, I played devil's advocate. But, I've not gotten anywhere with that because I am being told to provide my own answers and to rely on a general, broad series of unknowns in faith alone, where initially there was a sense of pragmatic dissection and analysis in which I could be convinced to form a belief that at the very least could remove any unreasonable doubts or uncertainties. I'm asking for a very specific conversation and I have not received that, I'll say it now. I wanted to establish a better grounds for those arguments to rely upon. There's something that can come from that.

And a better way to formulate critical thinking skills involves going beyond just reading novels. Those skills can come from other places. Merely filling your brain with classic novels is far from being critical of them. Augmenting what you read with foundations of logic and reason, that's what you should be recommending than supposing that what I've done so far lacks critical thinking or intent.

Know that I could argue for free will in this manner.

Why don't you choose not to post that

With knowledge comes responsibility.