Thoughts on this album and Can in general?

Thoughts on this album and Can in general?

This album has the memes that keep giving.

best band and probably best album

Pretty lame album. The album lacks creativity in every way except in select moments. Where the album succeeds is in the occasional timing of Damo's vocals technique (Halleluwah, Aumgn or Peking O the one where times the scream with the blasts, might be Schmidt who did that) and Jaki occasionally making a less simple more creative groove like Halleluwah that stuff is really cool. But the rest of it is pretty weak. The other guys don't know how to jam on their instruments, each track often sounds like it has just the initial part of an Amon Duul or Grateful Dead jam part happening without any build or development to do afterwards. Like a very boring, pop minimalist structure approach. The transitions from section to section are very weak on the record, too. Nothing takes the listener from the first part of Halleluwah to the piano bit, rather it just starts like if somebody accidentally put the parts of another song in there, or more egregiously in most of the two experimental tracks where they just couldn't figure out how to put it all together. Also really dislike how simple and straightforward the parts are on the experimental tracks. They just sound like someone who just started messing with music studio tech and decided to make just sixteenth note drum hits and whatever little effects they could learn. Very boring considering around that time we had some truly crazy yet primitive sounding drums in free jazz (Manfred Schoof was doing that around that time) and electronic music had already figured out how to create more interesting textures/effects to ranging from Dodstacker's stuff in 61 to Beatles using tape loops. The fact that many Can dickriders will shit on The Beatles for making a weaker take on sound collage with Revolution 9 yet dickride Can for being groundbreaking on this record are as disingenuous as it gets.

Ege Bamyasi and Future Days are fantastic though.

"Aumgn" is immensely more atmospheric, sonically diverse despite its singularity, and original than "Revolution 9". I can't understand why you even made that comparison other than as a cheap shot to Scaruffi or something.

>"Aumgn" is immensely more atmospheric
This one's more subjective, but I would argue that it's not because it tries to do a couple different things throughout the track rather than maintain some kind of singular feel as it switches between bits of nothingness, some sound, then a bunch of noisy bits without much connection between each.
>sonically diverse despite its singularity
Despite its singularity? How the fuck is that even possible? This objectively goes to Revolution 9 and it's absurd that you're trying to even argue this.
>original than "Revolution 9"
Before Revolution 9, examples of sound collage included stuff by Pierre Schafer who would only work with thing like train sounds, and around the same time was Luigi Nono's Non Consumiamo Marx which used recordings from three different events together. Revolution 9 is far closer to modern sound collage, using a large variety of different recorded loops together to create the whole. It is highly influential in what it helped develop. Aumgn on the other hand just severely watered down the musique concrete and free jazz developments of the past 10-20 years before it to offer something that just sounds lazy in comparison.
>I can't understand why you even made that comparison other than as a cheap shot to Scaruffi or something.
I mean, look at your first sentence. You literally proved my point about how predictable Can dickriders are. In no way did I mentioned Scaruffi, who if anything I think agrees with me as he also rates the best works of guys like Amon Duul II, Faust, and Neu! higher than Tago Mago (also gave Future Days a higher rating too iirc.)

>being so ignorant
Pathetic.

The rest of your post is really good and insightful and I'll definitely take this into consideration, but

>You literally proved my point about how predictable Can dickriders are.
I'm not the one who brought up "Revolution 9" in its relation to this while pre-emptively bemoaning Can dickriders for no particular reason. That was all you.

>I'm not the one who brought up "Revolution 9" in its relation to this while pre-emptively bemoaning Can dickriders for no particular reason. That was all you.
I was specifically looking at the content of your first sentence, even more particularly the second part of that. Like, I don't even care whether you like Aumgn more or not, that's subjective and onto you. But it's the faulty thought process that even goes into objectively false range ("more sonically diverse") that goes into the range of hypocrisy.

Not this fucking autist again

Karoli's improvisations on Oh Yeah are impeccable

But dude, I'm not a Can dickrider in the strictest sense and you seem to have confirmed my suspicions that you only included that line as bait. It is well known the reputation Scruffy has for being anti-Beatles and pro-Can, and when I speculated about your reason for mentioning "Revolution 9" you immediately assumed I was a dickrider.

>But dude, I'm not a Can dickrider in the strictest sense and you seem to have confirmed my suspicions that you only included that line as bait.
I said people that love the band a little too much will have a hypocritical thought process towards a certain thing, you prove it in literally the next post (and first post which proves that you do love this record at least a lot).
>It is well known the reputation Scruffy has for being anti-Beatles and pro-Can
What? No he isn't. Like, Scaruffi is far more pro-Faust and pro-Neu!
>you immediately assumed I was a dickrider
Gives band a lot of love, defends them but also to an extent where they are willing to say legit false stuff, that should be close enough.
It's just generic bluesy bendy shit every other generic guitarist was doing at the time.

1) You're not even establishing hypocrisy. You're establishing a logical mis-step. And I conceded that mis-step.

2) I didn't at all say Can was his favourite band. I said he was anti-Beatles (meaning he's critical of them) and pro-Can (meaning he favours them). When these two artists are being compared (as you compared them earlier) the implication is they're being compared for a specific reason.

3) I can admit that the sonic diversity point was outright rubbish. But you still haven't at all established a "hypocrisy" and assumed a lot about an entire group of people (and me) based off of one thing. That's kind of stupid reasoning.

>Ranks Can as 6th best band of all-time
>not pro-Can
Really activated my almonds desu

But I did mention hypocrisy. I guess I should mention the latter part, too about Aumgn being more original because guys like you would never give Beatles their due but will probs give a band like Can overdue. Again idk why you bring up Scaruffi when it's been established time and time again that I don't care about him.
Pretty sure he likes Neu!'s and Faust's s/t more, and that best band list is outdated and idk if it's still there.

Why do you like EB and FD but not TM?

Mentioning it and establishing how my actions constitute it are two very different things. Also, this is the first time you've said you don't care about Scaruffi. But instead of me assuming you're a big hater of his I tried clarifying why you would even bring up the Beatles.

Also, you seem to be implying he can't be pro-Can purely because he likes other bands more. That's odd.

Not sure what you're getting at when it comes to Piero. He gave Tago Mago an 8 - which means it's great by his metric - and thinks it's at least tied with Future Days.

Ege Bamyasi has a ton of variety in structures, and has the best drumming overall that the band has offered. I really like how the prevalence of the electronics is throughout rather than as just small gimmicky bits on Tago, and effects also just being far more diverse. The guitar isn't trying to do something jammy or improv based, and are usually either focused on accentuating the rhythmic grooves or on accentuating whatever weirdness the electronics are up to. They also kinda figured out that Damo's crazy delivery when it's well timed is usually when the vocals sounded the best on Tago and really worked with that a lot on Ege.

Future Days is their most focused record in return for being the least diverse, but at the same time they do a fantastic job at it. Everybody in the band has adjusted their style to create that airy atmosphere, so I love how even though everyone essentially kinda tones down the crazy in the parts, they make up for it in more subtle nuance (except Schmidt cuz his synths dominate the record and even then there's more nuance with some of the smaller sounds he introduces throughout.)

Tago Mago is 5/5 in Rolling Stone Album Guide and that's on wikipedia and mu believes whatever they say is classic and influential. No one will destroy this belief system overnight by attacking Daydream Nation and Tago Mago every other day in threads. It's an institution.

I used Faust and Neu as examples where he kinda agrees with my "Can isn't the be all end all for krautrock" that's kinda going. That's it. I don't like Scaruffi, but I never brought him up to begin with, anything else strictly Scaruffi related's on you guys.
>Mentioning it and establishing how my actions constitute it are two very different things.
But I established it before it even happened, then it happened in the post after it.

No you didn't establish it. You're literally saying not liking "Rev 9" but liking "Aumgn" is hypocritical. And him being pro-Can was only mentioned in direct relation to his taste on The Beatles. So those other Kraut bands aren't even relevant to this convo.

I genuinely appreciate your post about FD and EB though.

>No you didn't establish it.
>The fact that many Can dickriders will shit on The Beatles for making a weaker take on sound collage with Revolution 9 yet dickride Can for being groundbreaking on this record are as disingenuous as it gets.
It's right there, dude.
>So those other Kraut bands aren't even relevant to this convo.
If you can mention Scaruffi for The Beatles, why can't I do that for krauts? Hell, neither of us should be mentioning him period just cuz of certain popular memes about the guy around here.
>I genuinely appreciate your post about FD and EB though.
Thanks. I probably should've made my first post itt about them anyway.

Halleluwah isnt a jam. Its more akom to a trance track.
Revolution 9 might as well just be a sound collage track. It isnt really rock. Peking O is rock.
The second part of the is free form in a very different way than free jazz is free form.
Also, none of your statements say anything how about how well written the first three and last songs. They're straight rock songs with twinges of psych and proto-punk. Its a unique aesthetic (although not all that unique for Krautrock).
Bring Me Coffee or Tea is my gold standard for a psych rock song.
But youre right that FD and EB are better.

I literally only mentioned "Revolution 9" because you were the first person ITT to mention it. How are you too dense to not see that? You made it a part of the conversation and then reacted heatedly when others did the same. THAT is a hypocritical action. Not what you're suoposedly illustrating. Like, despite insightful things you've said you're being piggishly stupid right here. Using this loose logic, anybody who prefers "Aumgn" to "Revolution 9" is a Can dickrider. That's as silly as somebody calling you a Can hater because you have criticisms of Tago Mago. You do realise that, right?

Also, remember the following as it concerns Krautrock bands: you directly responded to me saying Scaruffi is pro-Can (which he absolutely is) by saying that he likes OTHER kraut bands more. That's such a nonsensical divergence. Is he or isn't he pro-Can? That's literally the only two options you have.

I think you're underrating it. I can see your point since Ege is a lot more succinct and Future Days is more of a prog rock album with a more traditional approach to development, but Tago Mago just aims for a different thing. The focus is more on development of mood and timbre through improvisation around a basic theme that never fully changes but never entirely repeats either.

I don't know how you can say they sound like they've just started music with studio tech when both Schmidt and Karoli studied under Stockhausen. Have you listened to Canaxis?

>tfw those are my two favourite albums
Also since when has Sup Forums ever cared about fucking Rolling Stone

mu doesn't say they care about rolling stone but all its essential albums arehailed by rs, and that info correlates to wikipedia reproducing it and clearly mu worships wikipedia as whenever people are dead wrong on an album's genre or what the definition of a genre is, it can be traced to wikipedia regurgitation. by the way, not knocking tago or daydream. just sayin, look at the essentials and it's pure rolling stone classics.

People still call Suicide and Marquee Moon postpunk, and it's partly the fault of Wikipedia regurgitation and it makes me want to fucking sock people who don't know the history of the genre

>Halleluwah isnt a jam. Its more akom to a trance track.
How? Have you listened to trance? Trance has a ton of simultaneous melodies that go in/out of the music on top of a repetitive groove. Can's not doing that at all here.
>The second part of the is free form in a very different way than free jazz is free form.
overall probably, but the free jazz influence is there. For what it's worth, I do bring up Manfred Schoof of crazy drums done right because Jaki used to drum for his group right before Can.
>Also, none of your statements say anything how about how well written the first three and last songs.
The general lack of creativity kinda covers it. There's still jammy bits in those tracks, which again, fall short of the kinda stuff their peers were doing at the time.
>I literally only mentioned "Revolution 9" because you were the first person ITT to mention it.
Nothing wrong with this idk why you even brought this up.
>You made it a part of the conversation and then reacted heatedly when others did the same. THAT is a hypocritical action.
I only reacted "heatedly" when you brought Scaruffi in here. Every time I keep trying to say in various ways that he isn't important here you bring him back.
>That's as silly as somebody calling you a Can hater because you have criticisms of Tago Mago
Well, that depends on their reasoning behind it. If it's just this alone, then they would be wrong.
>That's such a nonsensical divergence
Kinda my point, which is why I said neither of us should have entertained the idea of bring Scruffy into this.

>I only reacted "heatedly" when you brought Scaruffi in here. Every time I keep trying to say in various ways that he isn't important here you bring him back.
I only asked why you brought The Beatles into it at all and speculated that you did so as a potshot at Scaruffi. Instead of just being like, "No. Stay on topic." you replied with, "Aha! Gotcha!" That's silly.

>If it's just this alone, then they would be wrong.
You're not using a more thorough metric to determine whether or not people are Can dickriders. I'm illustrating that using predominately one single thing to reach that conclusion is heavily flawed. You can't do that.

>development of mood and timbre through improvisation around a basic theme that never fully changes but never entirely repeats either.
I agree, and I just don't think anyone in the band at the time was all that good at improvisation, just not really doing much on that development side. Like, idk why Karoli would think a song where the guitar mostly stays in the background like Oh Yeah would benefit from generic bluesy guitar phrases as improv. It's just underwhelming considering how you had Faust and Neu! do some weird shit with their instruments for the time or just how technically colorful Amon Duul II's improvisations were.
>I don't know how you can say they sound like they've just started music with studio tech when both Schmidt and Karoli studied under Stockhausen. Have you listened to Canaxis?
I know, that just makes that more disappointing. Although Schmidt and Czukay (not Karoli, Czukay who also did Canaxis) had that, and Jaki did his crazy jazz drumming under Manfred Schoof (who would just some years before Tago release European Echoes which has that crazy drumming style free jazz). Neither really showed up on that level of those tracks on Tago. I have listened to Canaxis, and even that wasn't that interesting compared to the more interesting works of electronic around that time imo.

>you replied with, "Aha! Gotcha!" That's silly.
Only in taking apart the first part where you first chose to terribly shit on R9. The rest has been nothing but me trying to further stay on topic.
>You're not using a more thorough metric to determine whether or not people are Can dickriders. I'm illustrating that using predominately one single thing to reach that conclusion is heavily flawed. You can't do that.
But I gave specifics in that very sentence. Like, I even told you why Aumgn can't be considered groundbreaking for its realm of music and why R9 is.

Sure, but not a word of that relates to hypocrisy or dickriding. You called me out for saying something stupid and decided it must be related to a trend of people uncritically praising everything Can makes. That should have been the end of it. Like, you're clearly trying to expose biases, but it seems like you have some of your own if you approach people who disagree with you in that way.

I gave the example of potential bias happening, it happened. I don't see how this is so complicated, bruh. At this point idk what we're even arguing about.

*holds up spork*

le egg man

Fair enough, I think they do it pretty effectively though, like Karoli's various guitar techniques, playing only dead notes and varying his timbre for example, and how Jaki constantly varies the rhythm of his drumbeats and embellishes them with various fills that build progressively and develop, Suzuki's variation in singing from whispering up to shouting and even varying the language he sings in, various production effects, not to mention the overall textural and dynamic arc of the songs and how these various elements fit together in a pleasing way. The focus is really more on the overall effect than any particular performer. Also Karoli might just be doing "generic bluesy" shit but he does it really well.

I've listened a lot to those other three bands and only Faust really comes close to Can for me.

Why are we still pretending krautrock is good? It was influential, but that's different from good.