Recently saw a lecture from pianist John Beasley. in the lecture, he got onto the subject of jazz, and its barriers to entry by inexperienced musicians. Specifically he talked about how "even getting a seat at the table" meant one had to take lessons and study music across many different styles for many years.
This got me to thinking about this recurring origin story that happens often in rock and pop music, of we as listeners praising the "naive" musician who "just bought a guitar and started writing". I don't say "naive" as a pejorative, just to mean that it's music that doesn't come from academia (it's a more common term in the visual arts). I really like a lot of these "naive" bands, like Nirvana, Minute Men, Shamir, Toro y Moi, who found a niche and a source of creativity from themselves, without learning the craft-oriented processes normally taught in a formal music education setting.
This led me to wonder:
Are there any Naive Jazz groups that you know of? Groups of people who said "we don't know how to play jazz, but we're just going to do it anyway". I know you could argue that many of the jazz greats of history "just jammed until they could play" but that's not exactly what I mean. I feel like for a music form that's meant to be as creative and boundary breaking as possible, i'm hearing the same rhythms, the same quoted figures in solos, the same everything. I want to hear people who don't even know what a 2-5-1 is play some jazz.
bumping because of the effort you put into writing this
Joshua Nelson
thank u friend
Robert White
what makes something jazz? don't you have to know certain things to make something recognizably jazz music?
Austin White
possibly so. maybe it's too specific a movement to have a naive version. I don't know.
Andrew Wright
feel its because jazz is more of a consistent form of 'art music' than pop music is with pop, there's generally no rules as its definition is that of the general populace making it. but jazz requires certain formal qualities to make it 'jazz'
Lincoln Cook
what qualities does a piece have to have for it to be considered jazz?
Caleb Cook
I guess really when you boil it down, it just comes down to having a head section, then a solo section, on instruments traditionally used for jazz, like trumpets, saxophones and upright basses. I would be inclined to say "swing" is also a key element but there's a huge movement of very straight modern jazz.
Camden Morgan
really only improvisation i could be wrong but i feel this is the one essential that you need in jazz music i guess the importance of improvisation kinda indicates why its hard for naive musicians to succeed in jazz as generally you need to either be a highly virtuosic or distinctive musician to be good as an improviser
Nicholas Ortiz
you're welcome
Nathaniel Cruz
>very straight modern jazz. post straight jazz plox
swing is a definite genre key like even outer space shit from the edge swings
off to my archive out of curiousity....
Liam Fisher
BBNG is kind of more inexperienced, but they take a lot of influences from hiphop and the lofi genre. They're college aged dudes making some dope ass music thats not really hard to get into. It has a lot of jazz fusion elements too
Eli Taylor
You could probably say Ornette Coleman, Don Cherry and some of the other early free jazz players - guys who played or learned jazz in a weird way or didn't have the same access to training that other players had.
They just went to jam nights, sat in until they got told to stop playing and then through chance they found other players or promoters or whoever that would allow them to develop their individual styles.
Christopher Cooper
do a quick ornette wiki my man.
guy was roadshowing in an r&b group. you need chops for that.
Jaxson Gutierrez
Swing isn't required, it's just very common. Latin jazz doesn't swing. If that doesn't count to you, what about Maiden Voyage? That song doesn't swing at all, yet it's still clearly jazz. I think there's also many moments on Sketches of Spain that aren't swung, but I don't know for sure as I don't know the album too well. Blue Rondo a la Turk doesn't swing either. It's not required just because it's common.
Noah Perez
blue rondo is swung
Nolan Butler
eh kind of, they met in a college jazz program though. i don't think it's fair to call them naive.
Gavin Hill
Yes and no
Juan Brooks
entirely yes, son.
Jacob Murphy
The parts in 9/8 are played straight, the rest is swung
Caleb Long
>"we don't know how to play jazz, but we're just going to do it anyway" Any jazz that gets a review on pitchfork/the needle drop
Jonathan Gray
no.
Carter Hall
Oh I know, but his harmonic knowledge and how he approached jazz meant he didn't have much fun on the bandstands - such as the story of him getting kicked off Gerry Mulligan's session.
Samuel Gonzalez
How would you notate the intro if not with straight 8ths?
You never swing quarter notes. The feel is 2+2+2+3, which equals 9, and the pulse is on the 8th note, which makes it 9/8. It switches to swung 8ths during the next section.
Landon King
text book much?
listen to the fucking drummer.
David Johnson
I've listened to this song and played this song many times, and, anywhere you look, the solos are in 4/4 and the rest is 9/8. The drummer in the intro section plays the divisions of 2+2+2+3 for three bars and 3+3+3 for one bar, with a straight 4/4 swing for solos.
Jayden Cooper
listen again i guess. sorry for your audiences with your no-feel rendition.
You are right, time signature is not swing. Time signature and swing are both parts of the feel, though. The feel of Blue Rondo a la Turk, and pretty much the entirety of Time Out, is based on time signature, and the swing is only on some tracks. You didn't acknowledge my mentions of Latin jazz or Maiden Voyage either. Did I prove you wrong and you just want to argue with me to distract everyone from the fact that I gave examples of jazz that don't swing?
id argue this is swung, but clearly has an agenda/impetus/aim of minimal playing. impressive.
Jason Sanders
@ 2:19 - 2:23 the drummer reveals the swing for those of you who like need it spelled out for them.
if a bears shits in the woods is he the pope?
if i dont play every possible note is it still swung?
whats the sound of john cage swinging?
Leo Lee
swinging sex bump
Michael Ward
BBNG fits OP's description but I don't think they're very interesting to listen to if you don't like hip hop Yes >You never swing quarter notes Tell me what you think walking bass lines are made of You'd be wrong though, since even though he's autistically talking about time signatures, he's still correct. The 9/8 part is not swung.
Christian Long
it is swung.
Wyatt Bell
Clean the shit out of your ears. Can you not hear the contrast when they start swinging?
Cooper Garcia
Clean the shit out of your ears. Can you not hear that the feel is swung the whole time?
Logan Gray
It isn't. They literally switch back and forth from Brubeck playing the straight eighth figure to Desmond swinging. If you really, actually, can't hear the contrast, you should stop making yourself look like an idiot by posting about swing.
I know what it sounds like, moron. I've been listening to that probably since before you were born. Why is it so important to you that you pretend to know what swing is? Skip to 2:12 and tell me if you think there's any contrast at all between what happens to the eighth notes when it's just Desmond playing (he's doing what we call improvising) and when Brubeck is playing part of the melody. If you can honestly tell me that you can't hear any difference, you need to either stop posting or kill yourself.
Juan Martinez
why dont you listen to the parts you cant hear as swung and realize they are, regardless of the notes people are hitting?
then get a paper cut and some salt and fuck your mother
Tyler Johnson
Maiden Voyage is in between. The soloists are all swinging over the rhythm section, and Williams is playing a latinized-swing thing. I don't know if there's a name for it.
Bentley Hughes
>why dont you listen to the parts you cant hear as swung and realize they are, regardless of the notes people are hitting? Oh, I didn't realize exactly how dumb you are. This conversation is fruitless. Try taking your theory to the Organissimo forums and see what those guys think of you.
David Evans
2:12 ?
cmon
obvious is obvious
try hearing it where it doesnt cum in your face
it just is.
why dont you stomp off to your internet basket weaver site and report back?
Lincoln Martin
2:30 - 2:34 seamless integration regardless of signature
Andrew Miller
The music school fags who try to front like this genre is only for the super well versed are rich kids who want to think they're geniuses. They refuse to acknowledge that this genre was literally founded by uneducated black people who couldn't even read music
Like seriously, this shit is laughable. This is literally a college professor, years after the fact, claiming that a genre engineered by AMATEURS requires an intense understanding of music history to even KIND OF understand. The statement you're quoting is a complete and utter joke.
Carson Gray
Academia has ruined jazz
Cooper Carter
"Uneducated' Charlie Parker spend hours studying Stravinsky scores in libraries. "Autodidact" is more of the word you should be using. Reading music is an overrated skill. And he's absolutely correct about there being a barrier to entry - you had to figure out all the shit necessary to play jazz by being hired by - or berated by - older jazz musicians. It was a genuine subculture. And the professor isn't talking about "understanding" (hint: most jazz musicians want their music to be "understood" by crowds on some level, which is why most of it is dance music). The barrier to entry is being able to play it.
Josiah Young
i dont think you understand you learning an instrument works nor how the physical and mental sophistication of musicianship works.
Oliver Moore
Charlie Parker was born when jazz was already the biggest genre in America. Try again
The subculture you're talking about is a result of the attitude that i'm railing against. I'm talking about how music snobs just took jazz and elevated it to the point that it's currently at, in direct contradiction to what the genre was originally. Modern jazz is a different genre, one that relishes in pretension (There are albums considered "the best" in this genre that don't even use scales). ORIGINAL jazz suffered from none of this pretension. My point is that snobby musicians took jazz and MADE it inaccessible, despite the fact that it was anything but in it's original form.
To be clear, I don't think an amateur musician could even approach the level of skill required for a modern jazz band, what i'm saying is that this skill barrier was introduced to jazz after the fact and has little to do with it's original form. This version of jazz more closely resembles avant-garde music than it does classic jazz (unless of course you think the presence of a stand up bass and saxophone is the qualifier)
Jeremiah Morgan
i'd actually argue that the unitary/simultaneous hitting of the band together on the phrase clouds the swung feel of the 9/8 section. it also chips away at the cut time feel of most swing. so its complex when you mesh swing and time and certain styles of poly rhythm . id also argue that what you folk call the "swung section" is a 12/8 section - which has a swung vibe as well (different shit) - in order to give the parts a common ground.
so each part is swung, and you misunderstand how swinging works, and cant parse it in the 9/8 sections.
so trust a musician. its swung.
art is art. notation is for faggots in the wake.
Liam Gonzalez
I play 6 instruments and have been writing music since I was 12. Try again
Blake Barnes
you dont understand the gut level intelligence in art making nor physical prowess of learning an instrument..
Leo Ward
how does it feel to have sucked for so long?
Sebastian Taylor
HOW DOES IT FEEL?
Aaron Cooper
suck
suck
suck
Jeremiah Hughes
>so trust a musician. its swung. Trust a jazz musician, it's not.
>Charlie Parker was born when jazz was already the biggest genre in America. Oh, so that means he didn't influence it. Good to know I'm talking to a galaxy brain. >The subculture you're talking about is a result of the attitude that i'm railing against. The subculture came first.
Once again, I play 6 instruments and have been writing since the age of 12. I've also won poetry contests. So yes, I understand "the gut level intelligence of art-making" and the "physical prowess of learning an instrument". Stop ignoring my point in favor of ad-hominem attacks
Aaron Gutierrez
lol
winning poetry contests is like proof of mediocrity. i'll leave you to your own. have a good evening, sir.
Jacob Perry
If you've gotten two replies into this argument without realizing that i'm talking about jazz's original form then you're straight up ignoring it. Show me a jazz composition written before 1930 that requires the same amount of musicianship a modern jazz band would require and i'll agree with you. However, until you show me actual evidence that jazz was somehow always a dense and complex genre, i'm not going to take you seriously. (especially since that was my only point lol)
Brandon Smith
thats fair. nonetheless, theres a wide variety of technique levels available to the 'non-educated' musician which can be more profund and have more feeling than some faggot who took some classes.
Xavier Harris
Im not a part of this, but figured I should chime in to tell you to kill yourself.
Owen Jackson
If you think that just because it doesn't sound "modern" makes it easier to play, you're wrong. Most modern jazz bands can't execute the music the way Louis Armstrong and earlier did. Rhythm is a school too, and not just "Muh time signatures" rhythm. Thinking that it's easier to play dixieland or whatever is just semi-racist thinking.
Elijah Gonzalez
your poem wasnt even mediocre.
youll be fine.
just let the suburbs pull you gently down.
Brody Morgan
Yeah, um, that's ridiculous. I didn't say modern music is harder to play because it's modern, I said early jazz isn't as complex as modern jazz. If you want a time capsule of what mainstream jazz was like before 1920, look up the jazz compositions published on Edison gramophone records. It's not quite as complex as Coltrane lol
Oh, also, i'd just like to point out that if your point (early jazz was just as complex as modern jazz) is correct, than it invalidates the point made by OP's college professor. This is because the dudes who started jazz clearly didn't have a diverse musical background, records weren't even commonplace lmfao
Cameron Collins
go eat rocks. thats how helpful your shit post is
Adrian Johnson
Hey, I didn't think it was that bad.
David Jenkins
it was.
technique gained over time (think rhythm section) can be vastly more complex and varied than some shit learned in school, ie who is judging based on what? you pull an Ornette and play r n b on the road and you come out Coltrane walking the bar and then you got the means to get to outer space.
Brayden Rodriguez
At least anons post made sense, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
Hunter Robinson
I AGREE, thus the point of this post but jesus christ lets keep talking about whether things are technically swung or not fucking christ
Nathan Sanchez
thank you for just linking some fucking music
Jordan Perry
Ehhh it depends. I take my music into improvisational areas quite often (mockfountain.bandcamp.com) so we tried to do an abstracted jazz song (2 part head with bass/guitar/drums solos based around G bebop dominant scale). We recorded recently and it came out like ASS. We're all basically self-taught .Jazz as the art form definitely requires study to make it sound good.
Strangely enough, improvisational parts in other style songs came out quite nice.
Jose Jackson
sweet dude! will check out. i kind of want to hear the ass tho...that's the ass i'm looking for... that NEW ass
Nathan Martin
well that depends on what you think of jazz. to most people jazz is simply "weird chords", which a lot of artists attempt (and mostly fail)
Bentley Ross
I'm very interested to hear how amateur musicians would attempt chord extensions and jazz harmony. I think they'd probably stumble into some very interesting ideas if they had a good ear
Isaiah Hall
Ehhh well I guess I can put it on the EP we're gonna release before the new year. Im thinking it sounds bad because we used the same sound pallete that we recorded the other, more punky tracks with.
The LP we're waiting to release in Jan, so stay tuned.
Gabriel Wilson
>mockfountain.bandcamp.com yo you guys are good
Luke Rogers
>mockfountain.bandcamp.com yo you guys suck
Charles James
lol Sup Forums
Caleb Bell
>mockfountain.bandcamp.com yo you guys are just ok
