Alex Cameron may be singing as/about macho and often sleazy characters, but anyone just like it unironically?

Alex Cameron may be singing as/about macho and often sleazy characters, but anyone just like it unironically?

Like, music has always been about such flawed people. Blues, rock, hip-hop, etc. is full of lyrics about such people. Tom Waits larping as scummy sailors. It's much more compelling than some sensitive indie guy shtick. Like a Nicolas Cage character.

Like, maybe I'm supposed to listen and go "yes, these guys are BAAAAD", but isn't that just tedious and didactic? I just like the sleazy 80s/90s douchebag vibes. It feels like a movie. And some of the characters aren't even that bad - just 'manly' (oh the horror!).

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This is one of my favorite albums this year partly due to the reasons you posted, Tom Waits is also a great comparison. No one else seems to put so much effort and creativity to the subjects of their songs like he does, Kirin J Callinan has a similar aesthetic but lives his asethetic. Alex's music videos also reflect the aesthetic very well, I love his attention to detail.

The kind of cinematic (or very real) 'worlds' he puts into his music really comes through in the aesthetic and it's incredibly fun to soak in.

But I also just love the album purely as great pop. Possibly my favorite of the year. Keep coming back to it.

I think Ariel Pink has also made music that plays with these sleazebag characters and mindsets to, like real damage and abjection, rather than as much bravado as Cameron. Both are great though, and more enjoyable for it.

I wish more people could acknowledge this kind of engagement with such characters and subject matter less as 'critique' and more as just being captivated and fascinated.

I mean, I don't feel disturbed at all by Cameron's character's imperfections. It's fun and interesting.

I liked it a lot but I don't know too much about the guy. It's an act, then?

It's not an act but sort of like a living, breathing pastiche or satire. I think it's very innovative.

Cool, so it's an act. I like it

It's an act within an act

This album is ruined for me because now whenever I hear it I just think of all the times we listened to it and laughed at the lyrics together

But it's so good still.

Which is why it hurts so badly. I just want to drive around yelling the lyrics, but I just think of how excited she would get when it came on in my playlist and it ruins me. It's easier to just not listen to it, but one day I'll come back to it after I've moved on.

Oh, you mean with an ex-girlfriend. I thought you meant with Sup Forums chuckling at the lyrics. Yeah, that can be rough. I definitely have taken albums out of rotation for a little bit after breakups.

You can bring it back once you're over it though. And albums you enjoyed with one girl often becomes the ones you share with another girl.

Sorry though, man. It'll get better, another girl comes along.

I thought you meant with Sup Forums chuckling at the lyrics.

>now whenever I hear it I just think of all the times we listened to it and laughed at the lyrics together

Without specifying who "we" were, in the context of this board discussion I just presumed you meant here.

well i honestly hate men. too many harass me and in real life to find the shtick humorous or ironic in music just upsets me

sure thing, larper

I don't see how his characters are bad people at all, except the rapist in "The Hacienda"
I identify with a lot in this album. Does that make me bad, or just not a numale?

I'M A MAN ON A MISSION

No, you're responding to it like people usually respond to music with complex, imperfect characters.

Compare your response however to corporate platfrom Pitchfork's Stuart Berman's take:

>But all that surface radiance ultimately serves to shine a harsh, unforgiving light on the ugliest of creatures: the modern, macho alpha male—and, by extension, the desperate, delusional dudes who aspire to that ideal.

>But rather than invest these sad creatures with sympathy and humanity, these confessional turns ultimately render them more monstrous. As Forced Witness forces us to see, the most despicable thing about these bros isn’t that they’re total pigs—it’s that they know it and refuse to do anything about it.

Ah yes, mildly macho men (basically nearly every man ever) are the WORST THING EVER !

I always thought this was the cover for a Michael Gira solo album

didnt care enough to look into it further

As opposed to Fantano, who more reasonably describes the characterizations as complex and compelling.

>Stuart Berman
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

are you tellin me thats NOT Michael Gira?!

I don't believe that guy doesn't need glasses. You just know he's wearing contacts.

no, he's better

aww yes my bro. damn being cool and tough is sick XD. haha fuckin pussy writer fags haha. damn i want to fuck some bitches XD

quads doesn't confirm, I refuse

Libshit freaks are terrified of masculinity. That's why they call it 'toxic masculinity' because it literally KILLS the numale. That's also why the media is so focused in promoting the lgbt agenda, they want to destroy masculinity and turn us all into a mass of raceless, genderless, cultureless, consumers who are docile and accept total control over all aspects of their lives.

Why does it have to be either / or? Why does it have to be totally horrible rapey "bro" vs super-enlightened, progressive cosmopolitan post-male?

Can't people just be people, imperfect and complex?

wrong

See, a person can realize that what you describe is pretty true of these guys, without swinging to some opposite Nazi cliche. It's funny to troll them with the Nazi stereotypes of their worst nightmares, but honestly, men simply as they are is enough - sometimes more macho, sometimes less. It's just we don't have to demonize either.

dont you realize that your conception of race, gender, and culture are a result of conditioning by the powers that be to make you act a certain way? people are finally starting to make a cultural impact in western society that doesnt with hold a narrowly defined binary version of man and woman .

YOU'RE A STRIPPER OUT OF LUCK

the system tolerates no dissent because its one and only objective is absolute submission. State approved artists ALWAYS have some sort of 'progressive'/'empowering'/'motivational' agenda. notice how people, now more than ever, are basing their identity off an ever smaller number of pop culture brands? If the tastemakers don't anoint something as relevant and progressive is as if it didn't exist. And they will praise any hot pile of garbage as long as it fits their agenda.

>This is what gender studies classes actually teaches people
No, Tumblr, race and gender are biological, our biological makeup and experiences informs how we act, which reflect the culture we create.
>people are finally starting to make a cultural impact in western society that doesn't with hold a narrowly defined binary version of man and woman
And we're worse off for it.

Saying that is a strawman argument of what you suppose to be critiquing. Men haven't always (or ever) been these total Arnold Schwarzenegger ideals. They have testosterone, and that to some degree figures into their nature and expressions, but there have always been the sensitive and thoughtful aspects to men as well. Men are arguably more romantic than women, for instance, more idealistic about love. But progressivism currently makes it like 'normative' / 'normal' people have always had it where you HAD to be some Vin Diesel type - utter bullshit.

I'm neither a macho stereotype nor some apologetic cityboy stereotype. I've never really even liked or identified with some of the dumber ideals of machismo. But I don't care either that testosterone is going to figure into a perpetual male culture involving strength etc. It has its uses, and is just part of the mix of what makes up life.

woah, sorry for my biased conception that didn't come from a fucking queer theory 40k a year victim studies course. Queer theory courses are like post christian seminaries, bluehaired upper middle class kids join them in order to accede to America's SJW priesthood, in exchange for a hefty fee of course. I doubt even half of those purple haired genderblobs actually get fucked in the ass. It's all fake, they are faking it for precious victim points. remember when a tranny orders you to refer to xir by some made up 'pronoun' that these people are doing it for entirely cynical reasons, their own politically correct gender ideologies consider gender as a performative social construct, by their own admission, they are faking it to virtue signal.

It's not that narrow, actually. There are definitely people with more activism-driven critiques, but they're only a small subset. 90% of what makes up most artistic and cultural output is operating outside of those discourses, working in formal and discursive strains that are more aesthetic or that blithely move outside of the constraints of said readings. Plus, the cultures of various artforms happen amonst the artists themselves - it's at center artists influencing artists (that's where the canons are actually built) - usually in terms that critics don't even touch on.

Musicians, for instance; they hang out with each other, work in inspirations and 'vibes' that are more affective and aesthetic, among themselves, without any critical intervention. Then, years later, if a critic attempts to write about their work, they usually respond with "what the fuck is that guy talking about?"

*amonst themselves

Was going to add: sure, manufactured stuff like Beyonce, as well as queerpunk, def pander to biolerplate critical programs, but it's always obvious, and becoming moreso.

yeah, except nowadays 'the man' is a 300lbs dildo-wielding genderblob with neon blue hair and kids rebel against authority by being right wing.

>Alex Cameron may be singing as/about macho and often sleazy characters, but anyone just like it unironically?
>Like, maybe I'm supposed to listen and go "yes, these guys are BAAAAD"

I appreciate it both ways. For me, some of the humor comes from how terrible some of the characters in the album can be. Like the line "You tell that little faggot call me faggot one more time" from Marlon Brando. It's so unexpected that you can't help but laugh at it. But later in the same song he recognizes that his actions are wrong and that he "can't stop," which changes the tone of the song from humorous to slightly depressing. After the initial humor wears off you kinda begin to examine the self-destructive behaviors that these characters are stuck in. It can be pretty revolting, sure ("I'm waiting for my lover / She's almost 17") but at the same time you can't help but feel slightly bad for them.

Also on an unrelated note, can someone explain to me what Politics of Love is supposed to be about? I'm not the best with interpreting lyrics

I think leading up to late 2016, there was definitely an innate rebellious gesture against the status quo in rejecting leftist social justice narratives in some form. If every dominant corporate narrative basically sticks to the same narrative, and is apparently always dispensed by a Generation X-influenced 'critical' culture of bespectacled nerds and blue-haired fat women, then, sure, whether such critics recognized it or not, many kids were going to chaff under the feeling of constantly being patronized to and pressured to think 'correctly'. And given the nature of anonymous internet culture, this response ranged between apolitical annoyance, chaotic trolling, larping as Nazis, and literal hard right wing stances, as an extreme swing away from that other extreme.

I think that swing was inevitable because that's how people are, but by now I think the cloud has dissipated some and revealed a lot of this to be just expressions of free expression, annoyance, and trolling. It's pretty apparent that there will be a continuing matter of the public coming to terms with the current climate and figuring how to adjust it to something less antagonistically baiting and hysterical, which definitely means dialing back from the SJW stance, but it's not going to be some extreme Nazi resurgence or whatever obviously. For me, the best way to discern this and let it take form is to just opt for an apolitical mode and not take the bait on either side.

I'm more of a SIEGE kind of guy, a red blooded street fighting skinhead type. I believe Manson was right about Helter Skelter. I believe in the day of the rope, I respect Reverend Jones, and I think Pol Pot was right about those city people.

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I feel the same way. And I'm not unaware of the real imperfection of some of the characters depicted, but I like the complexity and humanness with which it is treated, and I just don't think I want my reception to art to be one where I'm constantly, dutifully restating to myself "yes, yes, I see the critique of normative male behavior and let me reiterate to all listening that this is bad - let us say it again together: normativity is BAD". It's just such a creepy social-programming, self-policing mode to be in. Like formerly 'rebellious' and supposedly thoughtful critique has been turned into this really boring "Pledge of Allegance" kind of ritual you have to go through constantly, and my humanity can't help but chafe with it.

I'm sure that will work out great for you, and totally pan out on a societal level.

I definitely empathize with that. I feel like a lot of the more left-leaning critics have forgotten that you can enjoy something while still being aware that it has flaws. A good example would be that one pitchfork review that got posted earlier that kept hammering away at how BAD and AWFUL and IRREDEEMABLE the characters on the album are. That's such surface-level critique to me. Yeah, we know that they're bad, but that's not all there is to them. It's not all black and white.

I thought they were stereotypes that aren't prevailing, but they're stereotypes most people have encountered. I mean, we all know that guy you graduated with who still hangs around the high school, hitting on juniors/seniors. That's what I got out of Studmuffin96, at least. I think some of them are just supposed to be funny stories, like Runnin' Outta Luck.
Either way it's well written and entertaining.

>I just don't think I want my reception to art to be one where I'm constantly, dutifully restating to myself "yes, yes, I see the critique of normative male behavior and let me reiterate to all listening that this is bad - let us say it again together: normativity is BAD". It's just such a creepy social-programming, self-policing mode to be in. Like formerly 'rebellious' and supposedly thoughtful critique has been turned into this really boring "Pledge of Allegance" kind of ritual you have to go through constantly, and my humanity can't help but chafe with it.

we live under a regime of total management. what Sup Forumslacks think is leftist subversion is just the rational development of capitalist management. Ambiguity is potentially disruptive, a threat to a system devoted to keeping the consumer piggies hungry and the worker ants motivated. Pitchfork exists to remind you the product is Good for Society and Good for You. The Kylie Jenner pepsi ad was actually genius, too true for TV. A society founded on universal separation can only achieve reconciliation in the product. Neoliberal governance goes far beyond 'inclusiveness', it wants to assimilate everything and create a whole world of docile subjects reconciled in the almighty commodity. The visible part of our culture is a fragile representation of unity meant to conceal the total collapse of the system, economic, moral and psychic.

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I mean, the characters depicted in his songs can be raw and challenged and imperfect, but then so can characters in Beatles or Rolling Stones songs. What's the difference? Young, confused working class guys in tough neighborhoods have always (and still) deal with stupid fights and rivalries and get in petty defenses of their manhood, but then so do geeks and 'woke' urban hipsters as well, in their own ways, and so do women, in their other ways. It's just... humanity.

I agree. I was kinda surprised going into this album because, based on what I'd heard, I thought it was gonna be this scathing critique of masculinity. There are definitely some critiques of excessive masculinity in there, but they're a lot more subtle and nuanced then I was lead to believe. Like you said, some of them are just entertaining and engaging character portraits, like Stranger's Kiss.

>Ambiguity is potentially disruptive, a threat to a system devoted to keeping the consumer piggies hungry and the worker ants motivated. Pitchfork exists to remind you the product is Good for Society and Good for You.
This is totally my view as well. I don't see it with any tinfoil hat vibe, it's just the result of people wanting things to be more manageable, profitable, and goal-driven, and the political and the corporate both share worldviews that demand a clarity and praxis to any move made. It's a perfect match.

Not to be that guy, but that's why I don't read reviews very often. If I hadn't heard Jumping the Shark last year and just saw that the album was gonna be a "scathing critique of masculinity," I probably wouldn't have listened to it. It really isn't. Candy May is about a guy whose girlfriend abuses him. Not really a critique of masculinity. The only tracks that could be seen as such are Studmuffin96, The Hacienda, and Marlon Brando, and those aren't exactly progressive-tier attacks on masculinity. It's things most people disapprove of and joke about in private, but he openly mocks, which is why it's so appealing

>It's things most people disapprove of and joke about in private, but he openly mocks, which is why it's so appealing

Exactly, yeah. These aren't raging diatribes, they're funny character portraits of flawed people. He doesn't beat you over the head or talk down to you about how bad these characters are. He just makes it kinda apparent through their words and actions.

I just feel humanity is being debased and grounded into mush somehow. Guess that's what the 20th century was like, but the powers that be have moved on from exploitation of physical labor to the exploitation of communication and individual neuroses. You get your little cell in the panopticon and you are made to perform before the world like a dancing bear and connected to pavlovian feedback machinery designed to exploit said neuroses, while remaining aware of the unreality of it all. Occasionally i feel overwhelmed by claustrophobia and a feeling of incommesurable hatred towards the media ecosystem. things have never been better, they say.

I'm not so pessimistic... I definitely have a lot of contempt for those discourses and how cynically they've been gamed, but I see all this just as another iteration of that eternal problem of man against his surroundings; you get challenged and tested, but you push back and adapt, and it's not about the world becoming perfectly defeated or fixed, but rather you grow and develop personally, if you take the right attitude. I've weathered pressures and harsh antagonisms like you wouldn't believe, and have always been strengthened and wizened by it all, even after harder phases, and always level up. Antagonism and challenge is just something I exploit for personal strength. This is where victim discourses are wrong - with the right knowledge / take on it, challenges are beneficial. There's this foolish, consumer-driven (but also Marxist friendly idea) that you should have it totally easy, and if everything doesn't structurally come for free to you, then it can't, and shouldn't, but it's not true. This doesn't mean everyone turns out great, but that's not how it's supposed to be. Most people squander their situations / journeys.

*hands you a Pepsi(TM)*

Oh, hes a soyboy, that's why "he" seems to hate testosterone.

larping with your made up word doesn't change the fact that you're basically what you're pretending to rail against there, nor does it change the fact that that guy's 'criticism' is lame.

That's what the albums about, they're not bad guys they're cocky but interesting. Imagine seeing someone like him walking down the street, you'd probably smirk and wonder what he's all about and what his life is like. He's like a guy who peaked in high school in the 80s and still dresses that way, but doesn't care what people think, it's funny and admirable.