Complex Rap

Post the most lyrical symbolic complex abstract hip hop you know

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>complex rap

That's like progressive rock. Self-indulgent wankery for the sake of it. I absolutely despise Aeosp Rock for that. El-p does everything he does but without being an elitist dick about it.

youtube.com/watch?v=uGaQBoxzq5c

Agreed, but why does RTJ never have any replay value?
Never seen a rap gorup who's albums have aged worse

>That's like progressive rock. Self-indulgent wankery for the sake of it.
The difference in my mind is that wankery in prog rock adds musical complexity without adding any intellectual value, whereas increasing lyrical complexity in rap increases the intellectual depth without changing the musical qualities of the track

Kool Keith is the best

>increasing lyrical complexity in rap increases the intellectual depth

fuckin trash opinion, lil pump is better than your favorite backpack rapper

Niggas on the Moon

backpack rappers arent intellectual faggot

El-p's solo output is far superior. Truly forward-thinking, futuristic abstract rap without all the try-hard 'intellectual' attitude.

Finally, I get to post this!

youtu.be/GsEfgCYr2oE

Alright
My argument was that wankery is simply showing off while doing little to change the meaning/concept of a composition, but in rap, the meaning/concept is derived almost entirely from the lyrics so making the lyrics more complex inherently adds to the meaning/concept

take the gripspill

but it doesn't always

Have you listened to The Impossible Kid? It's easily Aes's least abstract album. Coming from a massive El-P fan, I'd say that Aes has him beat right now.

And now for the less reasonable and nice part of the argument.

>obscuring your meaning behind allusions and being super clever with words in a manner which has attracted hundreds of thousands of fans is self-indulgent wankery for the sake of it
>all prog rock sucks

Fuck you, you don't know shit. Should nobody ever try and mess with form in music? Every facet of music should be pushed to its extreme outer limits whether it's considered a gimmick or not. This is how different things are made.

so?

My favorite hip-hop album.

so it's really no different than prog rock at all

They seek to achieve completely different outcomes, and they're the same because they can both fail?

Alright, fair enough
I just like Aesop Rock so I'm biased
But I can see why someone wouldn't
It is basically rap wankery

>doesn't have an argument
>resorts to obvious sarcasm as bait

>Have you listened to The Impossible Kid?

Yes I enjoyed it quite a bit. The needlessly cryptic lyrics were tiring though. I'm a fan of most abstract rap but there's something about aesop I cannot stand. It's just this endless waterfall of words. I'm sure some people really enjoy that style but it's not for me.

>Should nobody ever try and mess with form in music?

Aesop's style isn't even that abstract, he's actually pretty oldschool when it comes to his style and flow. I dislike gimmicks and it seems Aesop's gimmick is just spitting bars non-stop without a pause that don't make any apparent sense. El-p has him beat in terms of creativity and constraint when it comes to spitting. El-p know's how to ride a beat and let the groove carry the song. Aesop just barrages the beat with wordsalad.

>El-p know's how to ride a beat and let the groove carry the song. Aesop just barrages the beat with wordsalad.
Not the guy you were responding to, but I'll jump in
I find this interesting, I'm a big fan of both rappers but I always thought Aesop Rock trumped El-P in terms of flow over beats; El-P always sounded jagged and off-kilter
I always saw Aesop as the much stronger rapper, while El-P's strength was his incredibly creative production

Aesop Rock is clearly the more technically gifted rapper but El-P is the better musician. El-P knows that it's not all about rapping, you need to let the production breath.

Agreed
Shame we never got a true album-length collaboration between the two of them

Most lyrically dense rap album ever made desu.

All this generalising also ignores the progression of both artists. El-P's performances on the likes of Fantastic Damage and Funcrusher Plus are ffaaaarrrr more dense than anything Aes has done. In some songs there is little or no respect for conventional flow or 'riding the beat.

I think you may not have delved too far into Aes's output. Hail Mary Mallon showcases him simplifying his flow and riding beats better, much the same as the concessions that El makes for RTJ records. You seem to see Aes as this one thing, but the dude has chops and mixes things up quite often, much like El.

As to the fact that he's far more literary, it's cool that you and others don't enjoy that, but throwing around generalisations about something you seem to not have very specialised knowledge about is unnecessary.

Fucking truedat. Does anyone have details on their falling out?

I remember a few west coast rappers, particularly Sole, thought El-P was a style biter.
This was back in the early days of Anticon.

El-P has a true classic under his belt that is wildly recognized while Aesop Rock has, at best, an underground abstract classic to his name. Aesop Rock never did deliver something truly mindblowing, El-P did.

I think Aesop Rock's style works against him. His lyricism is so dense and abstract that it turns most people off. I honestly have a hard time remembering any Aesop Rock bars. I applaud him for sticking to his guns and keeping it real but his style is an acquired taste.

>much the same as the concessions that El makes for RTJ records
This is an incredibly valid comparison
Hail Mary Mallon vs. RTJ? Has anyone asked this question before?
I think I personally prefer HMM - more fun, more sonically varied, a little less corny

Agreed, Cancer 4 Cure is a definite classic.

youtube.com/watch?v=6tNLlmpBY9o

HMM hold the power of being less serious and super self-deprecating, which also works to their advantage when they decide to throw some serious bars together because you don't get the impression that they're on some kind of moral high horse.

RTJ blur those lines a bit more. Yeah they're making dick jokes, but their ideologies pervade their music. Additionally, they've pumped out a lot more content and started to repeat themselves. That being said, production-wise it's not even a fight, and you have to take your hat off to them for having popular appeal too.

You're right about all of that, and you've finally worded it in a way that hasn't got me bashing away at my keyboard in response. Great chat friend, have a good new year.

eh, I have fun listening to RTJ records when they're new and HMM feels more generally lackluster

...

desu i've often felt like if Aes were more demanding of his instrumentals (not that he's usually rapping over *bad* instrumentals, they just usually don't really push his albums forward), his albums would be more cohesive and they'd have the sense of atmosphere that I think a rap album needs to actually accomplish more than an unrelated collection of singles. And over producers that have more of that atmosphere in their game, he's done some really cool shit.
youtube.com/watch?v=Zooyzt4I9F0

if you can look past the obnoxious christian elements then pic related is pretty good

youtube.com/watch?v=1bj8gu4zHmI

>for the sake of it
Purpose is overrated. If I want to enjoy picking lyrics apart that's my problem.

i cant so I wont try to thx for the suggestion tho

youtube.com/watch?v=BX4x1bD3jJI

One of my favorite hip hop albums ever, even though Signor Benedick never made anything equivalent (or even close) in quality ever again.

i feel like the guy just doesn't take it very seriously