Is race really a social construct?

This is what liberals actually believe!

Other urls found in this thread:

pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/does-race-exist.html
nytimes.com/1992/07/24/world/yugoslav-refugee-crisis-europe-s-worst-since-40-s.html
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

And also the thousands of geneticists at the Human genome Project who explained concisely why race is an obsolete term.

And also every anthropological society in almost every developed nation.

Not that polteens care about actual science or facts.

You can call retards 'mentally challenged' but it doesn't change the fact that they're retarded. Call population groups whatever you want but it won't change the fact that some are shittier than others.

All three of those girls have one thing in common, there not.

So how do those geneticists explain how two wongs don't make a white?

I agree, though, race is an obsolete term. We should use the term subspecies instead.

>what is lewontin's fallacy

Forensic anthropologists can determine the race and gender of skeletal remains. Race denial has little to do with science it's 100% political. In fact, it only seems to not exist when POC do something wrong and always exists when white people do wrong.

It's in my school textbooks for political science courses, either competitive politics or International relations I forget which.

Correct they're different species. Race is an old term

The correct term is subspecies.

I seen the fat white girl picture on the internet for years.

It's so sad, because I went to school with her. I remember looking at her on the way to lunch thinking, oh my god how the fuck can someone be this ugly.

>2008
man those were the days

top kek

please, tell us more

Race is below subspecies. Neanderthal and Denisovan were subspecies; all the extant human races share the homo sapiens sapiens subspecies, just like how all domestic dog breeds are technically part of the same canis lupus familiaris subspecies.

>tfw there's a 10/10 ebony at my college in an exchange program
I don't want to be a filthy mixer but she's literally perfect.
Help me.

do what your ancestors done before you
rape the filthy nigger

>actual science
Yeah, the "form a conclusion first, do research to support it...eventually" studies that deny the existence of race aren't really actual science. They're just polemics from ideologues who happen to have degrees.

The founder of population genetics, Sewall Wright, asserted that 15% genetic difference was enough of a margin to recognize different subspecies, and it's more than taxonomy actually requires to differentiate between different species entirely in several cases (chimps and bonobos, for example). It was Timothy Lewontin who declared that the 15% difference between races was "insignificant", and who the fuck vested him with the authority to make that decision exactly? Nobody.

Disregarding the existence of race with the logic SJWs use to do it is akin to proclaiming that species is a social construct because all animal DNA is made of cytosine, guanine, adenine, and thymine. It's not really legit science.

>Forensic anthropologists can determine the race and gender of skeletal remains.

Actually, that's quite an oversimplification of the issue.

Having studied biological anthropology and forensics I can tell you right now that it's practically impossible to determine the sex of a person prior to a certain age. Even then we find that there are inconsistencies.

From there, the race argument is absolutely shit. Race is a social construct because it's opinion based organization off of phenotypes. You can have multiple different lines of heritage and subsequently have different genetics shape your genotype. What we often find his people who identify themselves as a particular race due to the skin base phenotypes, often cause for issues when identifying people who have genetics from multiple ancestry lines.

What we identify in forensic anthropology is "ancestry," not race.

We often come across homicides with people who identify as black, but have the skeletal shape of a Caucasian person. We also often come across black and white people who have skeletal shapes similar to that of Native Americans.

>Race denial has little to do with science it's 100% political.

That's actually not true whatsoever. It's dumbasses such as yourself who don't understand the science and believe what you can personally interpret at face value to be more valid than the science itself. Often people such as yourself support race as being a legitimate biological classification because people against it wound up counterarguments into PC bullshit. Race is a folk taxonomy.

>In fact, it only seems to not exist when POC do something wrong and always exists when white people do wrong.

It exists because in science we organize people based upon allele distribution, which allows for proper ancestry organization. There is more genetic (specifically allele) diversity within Africa than the whole of Asia in Europe combined. Race is not specific enough.

>The founder of population genetics, Sewall Wright, asserted that 15% genetic difference was enough of a margin to recognize different subspecies, and it's more than taxonomy actually requires to differentiate between different species entirely in several cases (chimps and bonobos, for example). It was Timothy Lewontin who declared that the 15% difference between races was "insignificant", and who the fuck vested him with the authority to make that decision exactly? Nobody.

You do realize that practically all humans have the same genetic makeup, the only major difference between us is the allele distribution. There is more genetic diversity within "racial populations" then there are when averaged out between the two.

Not only that, but all humans alive today are the same subspecies. "Homo sapiens sapiens," opposing sub species would be like neanderthals.

It would seem that you do not understand the scientific reasoning that has gone into validating the stuff. In terms of genetics there are so many different scientists involved, it's practically impossible to slip something by because the whole point of this crap is to constantly keep testing it and seeing if it holds up.

This whole scientific racism bull shit is from the early 1900s, it fucking astounds me that people think that shit back then was more accurate than it is now. Hell, in the year 2000 and cost almost $1 million alone to test someone's genetics. Like they do for that family tree stuff. Nowadays it cost less than 200 bucks... You don't think with the acquisition of more scientific information we haven't solved this shit?

>social construct
>appropriation

Gettingcomfy.jpg

>but have the skeletal shape of a Caucasian person

If you weren't such a dumbass faggot you would know that's because the average american "black" person has up to 25% European DNA contribution through miscegenation.

pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/does-race-exist.html

Read what George W. Gill has to say.

>what is lewontin's fallacy
>what is lewontin's fallacy
>what is lewontin's fallacy

I can Google "race is real" for myself, but you're not actually showing me you personally have a fundamental understanding of the shit you spout.

Anybody can find a random website, but nobody saying raise within itself doesn't exist at all. What we are saying is it's a folk taxonomy, but it's nothing more than that.

Race includes factors like language, skin color, geographic location... What the heck does that have to do with genetics, Mr. Science man?

Something which George brings to attention,

"Well, you may ask, why can't we call those regional patterns "races"? In fact, we can and do, but it does not make them coherent biological entities. "Races" defined in such a way are products of our perceptions. "Seeing is believing" will be the retort, and, after all, aren't we seeing reality in those regional differences?"

See, you can say race exists. It does, it's a folk taxonomy. But when you're making arguments related to a persons genetics within itself based upon race, you're wrong. Your own argument says you're wrong. We don't use race in most scientific context. We use ancestry, it's more specific, it's more accurate, it's safer, and it doesn't rely on cultural interpretation.

Race is phenotype, cultural perception, language, and geographic position.
Ancestry is genotype, and allele distribution.

It would appear you have a very little idea of what you're talking about or the major thoughts within academia over this shit... Get an education dumbass.

Lol at your understanding of genetics.

We use race in medicine. Get fucked you lying, agenda having windbag faggot.

Well, what else can it be? It isn't 'genetic', like those "haplo-type" nuts rave about.

Actually, we use ancestry. Simply being black doesn't mean you're going to have heart problems, for incidence.

Genetic disorders run in ancestry lines, not your skin color and skull shape...

Clearly most of the people year who thing race is a legitimate biological classification system don't seem to taking consideration things like 23andme, which not only gives you a proper assessment over where your current alleles are historically from, but also potential and genetic disorders. Alzheimer's being an example...

In forensics, modern medicine, we use ancestry. Race doesn't tell you jack shit in most situations.

Well said. Best post on this topic, possibly ever.

>If we breed races together then race doesn't exist

Lol!

kek

You may SAY 'race' but what do you MEAN by that, in Irish-medical terms?

All 3 of them are ugly.

Nigger might have nice body but face...face is turnoff

fucking women of another race is victory for yours
another fucking a woman of yours is a failure

Race is an invention of nineteenth-century pseudoscience. It's up there with phrenology. Sup Forums wishes it were true because it it were, it might serve the political interests of poor white butthurt permavirgins.

There are genetic differences between populations of people, but race isn't a term that describes these differences. It's already too cultural a term.

People who embrace "race" as the term around which to organize their politics are very stupid and uneducated.

Race would have to not be a folk taxonomy in the first place, my friend, for that argument to even be anything more than the strawman it already is.

Here is the difference, I don't need to justify this shit to justify treating people of a different "race" like the human beings they are, I will do that regardless of information. You on the other fucking hand have to justify this goddamn ignorant bullshit so that you, based upon your own personal ignorance interpretations a scientific information you seemingly have no understanding of, can justify some pseudo superiority.

Fuck off, you dumbass. You know understand the science relating to this stuff worth a shit... You ain't got no pancake mix... God damn it.

There's a reason that picture is black and white. Wanna bet her skin is surprisingly light because she has a huge admixture of other non nigger genes?

Races do not exist. They are just fabrications of the sick and delusional mind of racist scum

More long winded bullshit saying nothing. When you can persuade medical science that race doesn't exist you can come back.

Until then you can kiss my sack you uneducated nigger.

Basically this. Only female reproduction is limited. The only problem arises when it's about raising those children. Make her family and people do that, while you wander off to have a proper family.

Damn, I'll make sure to proofread a little bit more from now on one. Wouldn't want to confuse anybody.

>Is race really a social construct?

In the US it seems to mostly be a legal construct... US census definitons for races are hilariously broad.
>related
>typical white American criminals

Just keep copying and pasting your pseudo science. You can't have spelling mistakes then.

If whiteys and abo's can produce fertile offspring they're the same species.

People evolving in different environments for hundreds of thousands of years are going to be measurably different in many ways. They will look different, be predisposed to different genetic disorders, and have different intellectual abilities. These differences are not small in many cases. Keep feeding yourself libcuck ideas you fucking leaf.

The accepted definition according to biological science. Populations with distinct genetic and phenotypic differences. These differences occur due to evolution and geographical isolation. For examples, Africans are geographically isolated from the rest of the world by the Sahara.

Pacific islanders by the Pacific,

North and south Americans by the melting of the glaciers.

The list goes on and on.

>Race doesn't exist...unless I am insulting and expressing my jealousy of white Europeans.

This thread is pure Kek. In addition I would like to propose that the coloured need to take off their tinfoil hats. Racism can't exist if races do not exist.

>More long winded bullshit saying nothing. When you can persuade medical science that race doesn't exist you can come back.

Dude, you're the one supporting a positive claim in this case. Somebody made a positive claim, I responded, you responded to me calling out of person who made the positive claim.

If you start providing actual evidence for your own claim, and then things can start getting interesting.

All you need to do is learn how allele distribution works and you've got your answer, this is genetics/evolution 101. Campbell's Biology is a great start.

I already know this shit. I don't think you do.

>Until then you can kiss my sack you uneducated nigger.

First of all, I am a pasty French American guy from New England. Calling me and nigger means absolutely nothing to me.

You are so unbelievably full of yourself, that's the problem. You like taking things at face value, and it's pretty sad.

Again, I don't need to justify this shit to treat people like goddamn human beings. You on the other hand need to desperately justify yourself in order to not have to look like you have some piss poor moral perspectives... God dammit. Who raised you, O'scar the cunt?

Race exists as a phenomenon in discourse. It just doesn't describe the underlying genetics as best we currently understand them. Racism exists because faggots like yourself use race as a category to organize the turds and chaos in your own head when you're trying to divide people into groups you like and don't like.

>Racism can't exist if races do not exist.
This statement is pure autism.

You talk like a nigger though. Just convince biological science and medicine to say race doesn't exist and I will accept it.

>I have no argument so I will fling poo.
You are a monkey.

Also I never said one race is superior to another. Just that race exists and the AMOUNT of insults and words put in my mouth by you niggers.

Defensive and insecure much? Lol

>You talk like a nigger though. Just convince biological science and medicine to say race doesn't exist and I will accept it.

Nobody is saying that race doesn't exist... It's a folk taxonomy. It's like saying grouping people by nationality doesn't exist, their constructs based upon particular criteria but they are no better or worse from each other in terms of organizing people by genetics.

We don't use race, we use ancestry. There is nobody in biological science and medicine who doesn't already use ancestry instead of race in a mass majority of situations.

...

>race only concerns genetic disorders

Lemme guess, you think the racial I.Q. is purely environmental?

...

Ancestry it's genetic implications of course exist.

Glad you can admit that.

His whole argument is based around a change in the definition of words and the US having a lot of mixed race people.

His argument based on the definition of words can be dismissed out of hand. His argument based on the US having a lot of mixed race people is of course a very very weak argument anywhere there is not large mixed race populations, which is most of the world.

Most of the world is still poor and geographically isolated.

Same species, different subspecies
Learn 2 taxonomy

it's sad that some marxist professor taught you all this nonsense. They're just trying to prevent future genocides by denying race while simultaneously encouraging "interracial" (???) couples. Of course, they're not teaching this to blacks in Africa who genocide quite often.

What?

Race is a folk taxonomy. Ancestry is the organization of people based upon allele distribution.

But your argument is inconsistent at this point.
Race is entirely based upon generalizations and in many cases the disingenuous usage of holotypes as has displayed.

Well, no... Because race is a folk taxonomy.
Do you believe in Nationality I.Q. to be anything less than environmental?

Semantics. Yeah that's a pretty common tactic.

Outside of the US race and ancestry is used interchangeably because we don't have the same amount of race/ancestry mixing you do.

Most of the world, in fact, does not have the same amount of race/ancestry mixing you do.

The attempt to destroy the idea of race I'm the US is just politically and socially convenient. An attempt to reduce divisions between people in your country. It has no scientific basis.

You're expressing this clearly and helpfully. Thanks! Nice to see someone who knows what they're talking about.

You know little about the world (and I'm not even American). What race are Irish people anyway?

The irish are black.

Do you have any proof that it was some Marxist professor?

Considering my evolutionary biologist professor was one of the most hard-core libertarians I've ever met, no...

Nobody is denying race, I'm not denying race. I'm saying it's a "folk taxonomy." What I am denying is the usage of it as an accurate means of genetic classification, and subsequently the baggage that comes along with it...

You know they don't teach this to blacks in Africa? Because most of them don't go to university at all, let alone have classes dealing with this stuff... Most people in impoverished places, just like for most of impoverish people in Western countries throughout history, they didn't get higher educations. Most of them didn't even go to high school or middle school equivalents. I have numerous great-grandparents that dropped out at elementary school.

There are only three major races: caucasoid, negroid and mongoloid. Hispanic isn't a race.

Your whole 4th paragraph doesn't say or address anything. Why are you so long winded??

Also
>Race exists. It's just not accurate.

It's quite effective if you don't have a genome sequencer to hand.

To sum up this whole thread:
Yes race exists
Yes races have characteristic genocide and phenotypes
If you are going to genetically sequence someone race isn't quite accurate enough to describe the information you generate.

Thanks niggers. Stop making this political. Race exists.

You left out spergaloid, as is predominantly represented on this board. They have trouble reproducing outside their shared genetic group.

>Outside of the US race and ancestry is used interchangeably because we don't have the same amount of race/ancestry mixing you do.
>Most of the world, in fact, does not have the same amount of race/ancestry mixing you do.
>The attempt to destroy the idea of race I'm the US is just politically and socially convenient. An attempt to reduce divisions between people in your country. It has no scientific basis.

Clearly you know nothing about the massive amount of diversity that exist throughout all of the Americas, let alone Central Asia, Oceana, the cross between North and sub-Saharan Africa, Turkey, and so on.

You are generalizing so much it's an absolute joke. Just because in Ireland almost everybody is white doesn't mean organizing people simply by "race" stands up in the context of humanity.

If anything Ireland proves why race is a stupid means of organizing people because of all the ancestries that exist on the island. Like the Scott Irish up in Ulster.

Take no consideration into anything, you just don't know what you know and you run with it.

You need to justify your position over race in order to justify your behavior towards other people, I don't.

Thanks, I actually went to school for this stuff. I'm basically arguing with hobbyists who think they know better because they know all that they know.

The great thing about getting an education is you're introduced of things you didn't consider, and when you have people who generalize like they do you know for fact that they have a very minimal education over this crap.

The only defense now for them is to say I was taught by Marxists, Hahaha. Damn, my professors would be offended. Haha

>My treatment of other people

You know nothing about me! All you have Is an agenda. You dumb fuck.

Nothing beats an education and actually knowing what you're talking about. A good friend of works for 23andme and is always great for chatting about how people misunderstand genetics in popular culture, especially when they take thoroughly anachronistic taxonomies that are laden with all kinds of irrational political freight.
And not everyone in a university is a Marxist SJW. The diversity of actual through and research in the world is quite inspiring.

Glad you mentioned this. The idea of the "black Irish" as a race is one of the categories used by British to identify a racial difference between themselves and the Irish. It was probably just a genotype that produced occasionally darker skin tone but which also showed up in the English population too, so was of no real genetic value. Nevertheless, it got used in the 19th and early 20th centuries as way the English could codify hatred towards the Irish (nationalism masquerading as race theory). I speak as someone with mixed Irish, English, and Scottish ancestry.

>Why are you so long winded??

Dude, this stuff is complex. For you to really simply think that a short answer is going to explain this shit is absolutely mindnumbing.

I had to read books upon books upon books and spend hours, weeks, and years of my life learning this.... And you're worried about a paragraph or two???

God dammit. I am an actual god damn anthropologist... lol

I can't.... hahaha

>It's quite effective if you don't have a genome sequencer to hand.

Well, it's a good thing we're no longer in the 1990s and back anymore. Just for the low low price of about 100 bucks or so, you can get your self genetically sequenced and find out both you're ancestry and potential diseases you might want to be aware of.

Because fun fact, race is only skin deep. And that's depending on who is looking at yet.

>in order to justify your behavior towards other people

How do you know

1) He is white.
2) How he treats non-whites.

>race is only skin deep

>You know nothing about me! All you have Is an agenda. You dumb fuck.

I know you're obsessed with the notion that I am potentially a "nigger."

I know you're from Ireland, I know you don't understand genetics very well, I know you have a piss poor understanding over how we use race in academia, and I know you're all talk.

I don't have an agenda, I don't give two shits what people do with their life so long as they do not restrict another individual's ability to achieve life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I don't like this PC bull crap either, but I'm sick and tired of dumb fucks like you who will defend pseudoscientific information on the sole motion that you will not agree with the people you oppose politically.

What now, are you guys going tell me the world is 6000 years old? What about that it's flat? And all that jazz... Get a grip, Christ.

The fact that you're in this constant state I'm thinking that people who disagree with you are part is some goddamn conspiracy is pathetic... They're absolutely always has to be an excuse... If you can't support yourself with evidence, you make it a borderline ad hominem.

>I am more accurate at assessing race from skeletal remains than from looking at living people standing before me - George W. Gill
>dats pseudoscience!!1

You act like you speak for every anthropologist and you don't. You're just parroting what some cultural marxist whispered in your ear.

His usage of the word Nigger, it doesn't take a rocket scientist. Have you been actually reading his posts?

I'm not even black, I understand this is Sup Forums by Christ.
This guys vocabulary is pretty piss poor. haha

That actually perfectly proves my point, it's all about the alleles. There is no logical justification for generalize groupings like race in place of context specific organizational methods like ancestry and allele distribution.

>you actually believe you skin decides your character
>you believe examples of hoodrats is evidence supporting you

Seriously, it's not cultural marxism; it's contemporary genetics. It doesn't work do to ad hominem dismissals when you don't like well-described information.

Cultural marxism is a very different thing (and not what Sup Forums sometimes imagines).

>You act like you speak for every anthropologist and you don't. You're just parroting what some cultural marxist whispered in your ear.

Really? Barney the god damn dinosaur could whisper something in my ear, but if it's true it's true... The issue being that you're only justification for your argument is to immediately try to devalue my position through the notion that I was educated by Marxists.

First of all, go ahead and prove that. Positive claim, batter up.

Secondly, no. First of all, Marxism doesn't work. Carl Marx was a whiny little bitch, and China proved distributing manufacturing makes it almost impossible to maintain quality control. So no, China in many respects is a shit hole. And Marxism didn't help them.

I'm not a Marxist, and this shit is not Marxism. Marxism in it's true form has nothing to do with understanding humanity through its actual genetic context.

But let's say for instance it theoretically did, even though again it doesn't, it wouldn't make any difference if it was actually true... lol

You do understand the issue with that line of reasoning? Don't you?

Of course I don't speak for all anthropologists, I'm not speaking for all anthropologists. Where did I suggest otherwise? I am an anthropologist, and I actually understand this shit. That's the difference.

You havnt had more than a single lecture on this. You show a total lack of understanding by continuously repeating arguments that are no more than semantics.

Race doesn't exist...unless you call it ancestry, then it totally exists. Lol!

Your over dramatic way of speaking and diatribes tells me you are a teenager.

Ad hominem dismissals fail against good content. You sound really angry and resistant to clear ideas. What might be really interesting is to work out why you're so angry and so obsessed by what you think is a clever logical trap: either race doesn't exist so there's no racism, or it does so genetics is race.

Serious question: what's your socioeconomic and demographic situation? What makes you most angry in the world? Do you get special benefit from scapegoating or directing anger at others?

Black was just an insult back then.

Black = bad.

Upper middle class. Clinical chemist.
I don't believe for a second you know what you are talking about.

How about the anger. Whence and why?

You know what gonna happen, go forth and colonize her!

What anger? I just called you a nigger a few times to get a rise from you. Since I got paragraphs of bile back in return I'd say it worked.

You are trying to apply a sociology understanding of race to genetics and then backing down and saying it's ancestry when pressed.

You don't know shit. You arnt a scientist.

As someone Irish, you should know that calling someone "black Irish" has a lot more meaning than that. At my Catholic high school, the term was widely recognized and was sometimes pejorative and sometimes people would try to reappropriate it to make it positive again. It's a good example of a purported race term that is complete garbage when understood according to genotypes or phenotypes.

Your background actually surprises me. I was expecting less education. It still doesn't work to argue that a highly historically specific term ("race") that is based on externally observable features combined with some geographical convergences can stand in for the way we currently understand genetic variation. What interests me more is how much you want these two things to be the same and why. I don't get the motivation.

>You havnt had more than a single lecture on this.

Actually, I have. I have spent well over four years investigating this stuff.

You on the other hand, you have hardly even talked about the scientific information within itself. You just may claims, that I am some spooky scary Marxists and must be a "nigger." haha


>You show a total lack of understanding by continuously repeating arguments that are no more than semantics.

Of course it's an issue of semantics, you have a misunderstanding over the validity of particular terminology. Do you not believe that ancestry is a more accurate means of organizing people than race, let alone the notion that they're actually different things?

The funny part is, you're often just claiming I am making faulty arguments. You have actually yet to provide examples and break them down. I literally replied to you and break stuff down. You just make blanket claims without anything to support them beyond simply saying it.

Of course I know what I'm talking about, otherwise we both would be agreeing right now..

>Race doesn't exist...unless you call it ancestry, then it totally exists. Lol!

Nobody is saying that race doesn't exist, it's a folk taxonomy. That being said ancestry is not the same thing as race. You should know that.

>Your over dramatic way of speaking and diatribes tells me you are a teenager.

No, I just think this is goddamn hilarious. Because you are refusing to have an intellectual discussion, I have been having fun with this. I am well in my 20s, you on the other hand. I'll be hard pressed to believe you are even over 20 yourself.

That said, quit coming up with excuses for being accountable for yourself. Even if I was five years old, if I'm right I'm goddamn right.

It means something different in the US clearly. It just means scumbag in Europe. We call protestants "blacks" too.

God knows it's difficult to be bisexual bottom black fetishist in Russia.

You claim race doesn't exist. When pressed you admit it exists buy you want to call it ancestry.

Literally an argument based on semantics. I take your many paragraphs apart with one. You are not a scintist and whatever you spent 4 years learning, they used that time to indoctrinate you.

I'm actually Australian and went to a Jesuit school surrounded by Irish priests. Maybe not so different from your own education. And seriously, "black Irish" is used to label Irish people with a slightly more olive complexion, darker eyes and thicker brows. People with this appearance show up in families where others are more people and red haired with green eyes. It stands out visually a little bit and is absolutely something that is targeted by the English -- like by our local rival Anglican school at sporting events. It's a race label with a complex history. Your denial or supposed ignorance of this term seems disingenuous. I don't believe you're that ignorant.

Great points, from what I have been able to uncover investigating people like this person; it often boils down to refusing to accept what opposition argues on the simple notion that it is often coming from people they disagree with politically.

If liberals are arguing for these exact things, and maybe are pushing policies because of it, clearly people like this guy are going to do everything they can to disagree with it.
That said, what should be happening is both people agreeing but understanding the reality of using ancestry over race in the context of their own political ideology.

That, and/or they're simply trying to justify their worldview.

Race and ancestry are very different things, and when it comes to properly understanding people, nothing beats ancestry. Ancestry being understanding people through genotype or allele distribution. One is often a generalization the other is context.

Homo Erectus on the right

yes, yes it is. Just go back 30 years ago and Croatians where seen as Arabs. Now we are all Europeans.

If you honestly want the truth read this article from 1992. Race IS a social construct and changes over time.

nytimes.com/1992/07/24/world/yugoslav-refugee-crisis-europe-s-worst-since-40-s.html

Read the whole exchange, nice simple refutations of the semanticist.

It's simply not used in ireland except as a generic insult. You want it to be something.

Maybe it changed meaning when your ancestors became mixed with aboriginals?