Can we discuss how unethical CGI Tarkin is?

Forget whether it was good or bad (the fact that it was bad was just salt on the wound)

Can we discuss how unethical replacing actors and characters from older movies with CGI is?

There's other examples of it - Gladiator CGI'd a dude in the shadows, but that was because he fucking died.

Peter Cushing is dead too so obviously he can't play Tarkin, but something about replacing an actual actor who played a famous role with CGI is.. kinda fucked?

I know it was mentioned on RLM so I can't avoid anti-RLM autists using it as an excuse to avoid the argument, but they had a point when they said what next - CGI Mark Hamill? CGI Harrison Ford? Do those strike you as unethical? If so, and Tarkin doesn't, what's the difference?

Could they seriously not have come up with a new character (they had that one guy, played by Ben Hendersomething, I can't even remember his characters name because he was overshadowed by Tarkin)

What even was the point of that? Have a couple fan service scenes where you see his back if you must, but replacing whole actors with CGI and giving them significant screen time.. is pretty fucked.

Am I the only one who feels this way? I've only seen it mentioned a few times, doesn't seem like it bothers people as much as it should. If it doesn't bother you, you're wrong, btw.

Other urls found in this thread:

washingtonpost.com/news/comic-riffs/wp/2016/12/15/one-of-the-best-performances-in-rogue-one-is-by-an-actor-who-died-in-1994/?utm_term=.753125af73d7
dailymotion.com/video/x29y535_blue-harvest_fun
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Moff_Tarkin
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

WAS GAY AND FAKE AS FUCK LITERALLY WORST PART OF THE MOVIE

WOULD HAVE LIKED SOME ACTUAL CHARACTER DIALOUGE HERE ABOUT DECISION LIKE NUKING A PLANET BUT NOOOO

LITERALLY COULD NOT TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY AT ALL WHEN CGI

...

I'm sure his family were distraught at collecting a paycheck from their dead relative.

But yeah, it's retarded.

>something about replacing an actual actor who played a famous role with CGI is.. kinda fucked?
>I know it was mentioned on RLM so I can't avoid anti-RLM autists using it as an excuse to avoid the argument, but they had a point when they said what next - CGI Mark Hamill? CGI Harrison Ford? Do those strike you as unethical? If so, and Tarkin doesn't, what's the difference?

pretty sure something similar happened with crispin glover in back to the future, and now its just part of whatever contract actors sign (disney gets the rights to my likeness for X films in exchange for Y dollars, if they run out they re-up and pay the actor)

>Could they seriously not have come up with a new character
HOW THE FUCK WOULD THEY HAVE A MOVIE ABOUT THE DEATH STAR THAT ENDS 5 SECONDS BEFORE ANH AND NOT HAVE TARKIN IN IT YOU IDIOT

>Tarkin was in the imperial senate meeting with Palpatine

He didnt need to be in the movie.

couldn't you say the same thing about tarkin in the clone wars cartoon

It's unethical because it's ostensibly a Peter Cushing performance that Peter Cushing had no part in. All of it was created by animators and voice actors.

He's like a minor character dude. If they wanted him in the movie have a quick scene from behind

Absolutely no reason to have him in the movie. Not a single one of his scenes were necessary. All he did was overshadow their new villain

It's literally indefensible, I have no idea why you're trying, especially with such a weak argument.

Not at all. One is a cartoon, the other is a geniune attempt to bring back an actor from the dead.

Did people consider the Tupac hologram unethical? When the jews start having hologram Holocaust survivors yelling at you in the museum will that be unethical?

the difference, as I think I understand it, is that the clone wars was a cartoon simply using the character
the distinction is the fact that it was a cartoon of a character, not a recreation of the actor playing the character

the ethical dilemma is whether it's okay to recreate someone's likeness to be used in something they have no say in, whether because it was done posthumously or incapacitated
in the case of incapacitated, I guess that the power of attorney would have the right to authorize the use of a person's likeness
I don't know how long someone has such power over someone after they've died, and if there is any statute of limitations for the executor

>Tarkin is a minor character

yes actauly. what the fuck was snoop thinking?

I couldn't give less of a fuck. You sound like obnoxious faggot who's afraid of technological progress tb h

An actual discussion on the art of film and it's responsability to the actors?

I would love to speak of this, but i'm sure by now this has turned into a shit storm.

You're right. I am absolutely afraid this will become more commonplace in the future, and the quality of kino will sink even further than it already has. You caught me.

>He's not concerned about "progress"

>a geniune attempt to bring back an actor from the dead
you might be overreacting just a little bit

It was awkward OP.
I was taken back by it while sitting in the theater. Having to see him CG'd into the movie really stunted my immersion. Same thing with the Carrie Fisher CGI at the end.

Also, it's obvious that CGI isn't that great yet, because it STILL looks too animated.

So how bad did he really look ?

Director Krendrik?

also mon motha.

And all the rebel fighter pilots.

Though at least they were apparently actual scenes from ANH

It is wrong and unethical, mostly because they profit from a dead man's image and a character, that while he didn't create, he did give a voice, life, mannerisms too.

It's really bad. Uncanny Valley is 100% in effect.

Even if it was good, though, I disagree with it on principle.

distractingly bad.

Literally could not take the scenes seriously.

Fucking cringe worthy. It's not that it "looked" bad, it's just that you KNOW Mendehlson is talking to nothing. There's a fundamental element (a living human being) that simply cannot be replaced without it turning into a fucking cartoon. It was a as bad as Jar Jar Binks.

The family would have rights to his estate and royalties.

Any power of attorney would expire once the person had died, i think the rights the family has over the estate only last for 100 years though, after that it's sort of fair use.

I might be completly wrong.

Even ignoring the ethical aspect, the effect was shit and should have been cut. He really didn't need to be in the movie, his entire role was being an asshole to the "main villain". If they absolutely had to have him in as fanservice it could have been a quick scene with his face hidden from the camera.

If we jump back to ethics, I am very concerned that this sort of thing will become commonplace and Hollywood will abuse the fuck out of it. Why hire new actors when you can just use the likenesses of old beloved ones? It's just another way to exploit a brand and spiral further into creative bankruptcy.

We can only hope that there's a backlash against this and that studios will avoid using it in the future. Make no mistake, if this is successful they will start using it EVERYWHERE.

anyone who's 21+ knows it's horseshit, it won't stop the jews though

It has begun, the jew has no limits to it's degeneracy

washingtonpost.com/news/comic-riffs/wp/2016/12/15/one-of-the-best-performances-in-rogue-one-is-by-an-actor-who-died-in-1994/?utm_term=.753125af73d7

>WaPo

Every time.

Disney will remake OT at some point

If they can get past the uncanny valley, it might be their cheapest method while attempting to court the "fans"

I would legitimately prefer that they remake the prequels first. In fact I'd welcome it.

I didn't notice it.

dailymotion.com/video/x29y535_blue-harvest_fun

>He's like a minor character dude
He's the Emperors fucking right hand, he's far more powerful (politically speaking) than Vader!

good thing he wasn't inappropriately CGId into some faggot fan fic prequel

It looked strange but I was still impressed that they're not far from looking like real human actors

Hey idiots

#1) Peter Cushing's estate was totally okay with it and helped with the process

#2) Unlike some actors (Alec Guiness comes to mind), Peter Cushing fucking loved being in Star Wars and actually said he was sad he couldn't be in it more because his character died

I mean I understand the ethical dilemma and I felt the same way before I looked him up more, and while this conversation surely applies to the future, and there are debates about whether or not Lucasfilm owns Tarkin's likeness, in this specific case we're talking about a guy who would've loved to be in more Star Wars and probably would have loved this.

fuck off they dont own his dna

>own your likeness

what kind of total recall minority level bullshit is this?

I dont have an issue ethically really with this in this case, but fuck did that CGI look bad

I did actually wonder about this.

I'm sure it's a contractual thing where it's technically legal, but it's not fucking ethical in my opinion.

Cushing can't agree to be in a Star Wars movie again so they can't use his likeness. Usually you sign away your likeness for promotional materials and stuff, but doing it for an actual talking role in a movie that isn't based upon already filmed material is pushing it.

They sure as fuck wouldn't do this without the consent of an actor that's still alive, because they'd risk getting sued to shit.
And now I'm doubting if they'd have done it when Christopher Lee was still alive, they were best friends or something.

I'll get SJW accusations but that's like saying "yeah, she's passed out but she totally implied before she was going to fuck me".
It's good to know he enjoyed Star Wars though, at least a dead guy hasn't been fucked over.

>inappropriately
How? He took control of the Death Star, I think it absolutely fit that he was there

I was thinking this when I saw it in the cinema.
Cushing was a classic actor, above star wars desu, but he gave it his best.
The thing is, acting is an art form, an actor uses the environment and their fellow actors to give a performance. Cushing was not there. He did not give any performance, they used his bare image which is insulting to him as a performer.

The first time you see him its his back and you can slightly see his face in a reflection on a window and it looks fucking fantastic, but then he turns around and he is an over animated cartoon character from a video game CGI cutscene or something.

The point of Mendelsohn's character was that he oversaw the construction of the Death Star and Tarkin just came in at the completion to steal the glory.

They could have just had Tarkin arrive towards the end of the movie and show him exactly how they introduce him, from behind with his face obscured in the glass. The effect looked wholly convincing in that shot.

High quality for a video game but it's a movie so still garbage.

As if Grand Mof Tarken cared about that side project until he got sent there by Palpatine.

>Fear will keep the local systems in line

Tarkin was NO DOUBT in the Imperial War Room strategizing about imperial control before he got sent out to the death star to keep the commanders in line.

I'm not convinced he had to be in this movie, or IF HE DID, USE A REAL ACTOR.

he didn't look bad at all. the face was modeled just fine, and though you could tell it was CGI, it wasn't uncanny valley for me. idk what everyones problem is. in motion the face was just a little stiff, but my main problem with it was the body. the body was waaaay to stiff. it looks like they spent all their time on the face and forgot about the body

it was tasteful and i have high hopes for the future of CGI

It's not as bad as people are making out. It's the best example of the technology to date, but won't be perfect for another 20 years.

What do you mean? CGI-only was Lucas' intent all along.

>implying CGI can ever replace a human actor.

That would have been so much better

Instead of having Mendelsohn face off against Jyn and die pointlessly (a leader like him going 1 on 1? he's not even a soldier or special operative.. Where is his guard? etc. It's stupid)

Do the scene where Tarkin is in the mirror. Pull back and have Mendelsohn explain his failure to stop the rebels and that they escaped with the Death Star plans to Vader. Vader cuts his head off, and tells Tarkin he's now in charge of the deathstar.

Done.

The likeness of the character, not the person, even if the characters just looks like the person.

You can't go and sell Grand Moff Tarkin dolls just because Peter Cushing is dead. Lucasfilm still owns the rights to that character and the character's likeness. I know we're basically getting into philosophy here and I'm not really arguing for owning human faces, but in legal terms the character is their to do what they want with. Where the line is drawn between, say, trying to recreate an actor's mannerisms, I don't know. Whether or not how an actor acts is part of the actual character's likeness is something for a lawyer to figure out.

Lucas may be gone but all of his underlings are still there. His memes live on.

Are you fucking retarded? Both Tarkin and Leia had actual lookalike actors in the actual scenes. The unfortunate decision to alter their faces must have been a last second thing.

how about this:

>thou shalt not reproduce the likeness of an ACTOR by CGI to supplement for the work of an actor in character.

retarded thread

Why didn't they have Ralph Fiennes or Charles Dance play Grand Moff Tarkin?

Like a very good video game trailer.
It was bad contrasted to the real actors, not bad in of itself.

im not saying that it will replace an actor, but i have decent hopes for where CGI will go. if we can get technical visuals that Tarkin had in back drops and sets like Avatar be commonplace, it would allow creators and directors limitless creative power. we might be looking at a new era of animated movies. imagine if Beowulf had this Avatar level of animation when it came out. non-childre /comedy animated movies might be more commonplace than the constant stuff that we have now

cuz star wars autists wouldve said "REEEEEE NOT MY TARKIN"

you know it's true

>wasting shekels on other actors when you can just plaster in a terrible cgi picture and have teenagers blow their "im so nerdy xDD" loads anyway

only exception I can think of that's justified would be like the Crow or perhaps The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus or something where the actor was literally killed on set or suicided during production

You die and your input is no longer relevant. Your likeness and personality are ripe for exploitation in the digital age.

Yeah, it's PKD shit, but it's still pretty awesome. Imagine being an actor, dying, and modern movies being so desperate that they have to conjure your face with modern technology. It's the ultimate homage, really.

They recasted other Star Wars characters like Mon Mothma and that bearded rebel guy though.

OP needs his safe space

He does look like a younger Grand Moff Tarkin even without makeup, I am sure a bit of movie magic would've made it acceptable.
Also easier to have him in future movies, instead of needing to always animate him, and another actor to promote the movie on tours and talk shows.

That "terrible CGI" probably cost more than Fiennes does.

mon mothma was played by the same actress in the prequels, and actually looks like the actress in Jedi. i doubt you could find a good Cushing look-alike

While we're on the topic of Rogue One blunders this is also why Darth Vader's voice sounded weird

JEJ is too old to do the Vader voice properly anymore, but they used him anyway instead of someone who sounds exactly like Vader because if they didn't fans would have a shitfit

pretty pathetic though. You're reduced to a simulacrum of YOU not even the character you played. It's not like Hamlet is ONE HUMAN BEING from the fucking KINGS MEN

Cushing wasn't above Star Wars, he was a schlock actor.
He appeared mostly in low budget camp horror movies. He lamented this and I think he enjoyed Star Wars because it was a cut above his usual work.

>Peter Cushing's estate was totally okay with it and helped with the process
This is a moot point, the discussion is whether audiences should be okay with it. We are the ones consuming the media, and I want to stay out of the uncanny valley for the foreseeable future. Letting some board room decide whether something is okay or not for you is weak.

>Peter Cushing fucking loved being in Star Wars
Cushing didn't even live to see the special edition re-releases. He may well have changed his mind after what Lucas did to the name a few years later. Neither you or I can decide that for him.

Ralph Fiennes is a great idea as a Tarkin replacement. Fuck, that would have been awesome and gave R1 the extra push in needed in STAR POWER.

honestly didn't bother me. Was at least the real deal. Dont know why this bothered the autists.

>uncanny valley
Misuse of the word. There's no way the CGI was that bad to cause that feeling in you.

what does it matter what his role was he's a minor character non the less

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Moff_Tarkin

He was played by another actor in Revenge of the Sith.

> Wayne Pygram (Episode III)

the feeling was that

>1) dialogue was shit
2) was fucking cartoon
3) COULD HAVE BEEN GOOD

>Cushing wasn't above Star Wars, he was a schlock actor.

A lot of the older style actors were, horror usually demands classically trained actors because they have a certain presence and way of speaking that fits villainous roles.

I don't think Peter Cushing had any particular dislike for being in horror, though.

You can try that again in a few years and see how bad it's aged.

There is no way the CGI was that good, you mean.
For the uncanny valley effect you need to be unsure if its real or not, this the discomfort.
It has to be 99.9999% real.

Overall the uncanny valley effect is a bit hard to achieve these days, since we are so used to CGI and animation, it was easier 20 years ago.

What? There was a literal human being there? They have some guy who is standing there doing the actions playing out the scene with mendehlson and then graft a cgi face on top of him in post production. Your post and argument is literally wrong.

>as bad as Jar Jar Binks

Never go full retard

You're dead though. Who gives a fuck? Any reference to you or your character should be considered as a courtesy.

If my grandpa was John Wayne, and a movie company approached me with $100K+ to use his likeness in a movie, I'd say sign me the mother fuck up. There wouldn't even be the slightest bit of hesitation.

It's just contradictory

They used CGI to bring back Tarkin to preserve the authenticity of the character but didn't get Vader's voice right. So are they going for authenticity of cast or film? Because if they're going for authenticity of film they shouldn't have messed up on Vader's voice

Vader's voice actor is the same, its just that the sound quality is "better", thus it sounds different.

I can close one eye about the ethical issue, but what worries me is that this is going to be a big precedent for the industry.

Screencap this, if they'll ever make some other Tolkien related shit we're gonna get CGI Christopher Lee.

>
lmao

>autists think having a CGI stand in = acting

fucking kill yourself reddit fag

That's different Uncanny valley isn't noticing bad CGI

No. Uncanny valley is a result of a face that looks like a corpse. This word is being thrown around as much as Mary Sue was for TFA, at least that word was used right.

People are just saying it to sound smart now.

pic related: An example of what causes major uncanny valley (for me).

Doesn't help that he's 40 years older as well.

Kind of? It's not like those weird Japanese dolls that actually make you uncomfortable to look at, but you could still tell it was CGI.

Imagine in a few years or, hell, even in a few months when we have HD Blu-ray rips. It will be really obvious. So like, we're going back up the curve where things aren't off-putting, but we're still in the valley and can tell things are fake.

first of all he sounded perfectly good. Second, have you heard their attempts at sound-alikes in video games? It's like JEJ is truly one of a kind. Meanwhile they've got several people that can do dead-on Peter Cushing.

No. Only the face was CGI-enhanced. Everything else was an actor. Whoever the person they were responding to (you) got exposed for lying.

Well with your image its not obvious if its real or not. You have to examine it to confirm its animated.
With the movie effect in question it was obvious that its not real, thus no uncanny valley.

LMAO FUCK YOU NIGGER

LITERALLY KILL YOURSELF CGI FAGGOT

> It was bad.
The fact that you see it's CGI don't make it bad moron

Literally the best fully CGI human put onscreen, Sup Forums will say its trash because RLM LMAO

If you know the character is CG then your obviously going to get a slight uncanny valley effect. Most people who are not as familiar with the actor or OT couldn't even tell

Even noticing something as fake isn't uncanny valley. It solely has to do with looking like a corpse.

Even noticeable CGI of a face doesn't produce uncanny valley (in most people). It's around 80% likeness that causes a big problem. I'd put Tarkin about 90-95%.

I'm pretty sure they could find a perfect soundalike if we're talking the Disney budget, not video game budgets