Using only the information provided in the films...

Using only the information provided in the films, explain to me who this character is and what his motivations and plan were.

Count Dooku.

He was a Jedi but later became an apprentice to Sheev. The movies don't explain why.

>Using only the information provided in the films,
You can't make me forget what I already know.

A former Jedi Master, he became disillusioned with the Jedi Order and followed his personal ambitions to gain more power, becoming a Separatist leader and meeting Sheev on the way, who corrupted him to the dark side of the Force. ALL of this info is in Episode II, either explicitly or easily inferred if you are not retarded.

By "easily inferred", do you mean it was in some shitty novel, or on the back of a toy box?

because people hated jar jar

>The movies don't explain why.
Yeah, they did. He's a disgruntled political idealist who outgrew the Jedi order and left. Turn to the Dark side for it's superior powers, as a means to further his political agenda.

Proof?

I said information provided in the films, not autistic fan theory that you cooked up.

Former Jedi master but joined the dark side. He had some shitty justification for why but I can't remember what it was.

No, it was shown in scenes throughout the movies. To name a few, the scenes in the Jedi library, when Obi-Wan is imprisoned on Geonosis, and when Mace Windu tells Padme that Dooku wouldn't assassinate anyone because it's not in his character.

It's literally explained in the first few scenes in the movie, on Coruscant, with a few of the Jedi in the room with Palpatine and Padme walks in.

It's not an autistic fan theory. If you didn't have shit for brains you could figure it out for yourself from the limited information in the movie to determine his motives and ambitions.

Are you really as stupid as the typical American audience nowadays who needs to have everything spelled out for them like a fucking child?

>what his motivations and plan were.
he was a useless pawn of sheevs

>ywn be this autistic

I'm not even American, you mouth breath manchild.

What he says is alluded to in AotC. What he leaves out is how half baked those character concepts are and how they come to nothing as the character is killed off at the start of RotS. We don't learn what his ideals are past "divergent enough from the Jedi to consult the dark side and divergent enough from mainstream politics to actually believe secession from the republic will work/is a good idea."

The movies fail to convey what it is he believes in and expects the viewer to just trust that the Good Guys™ are right to oppose him because he has a red lightsaber. Which is a pretty heavy ball to drop when the audience is still looking for that "idealistic crusade" Anakin angle hinted at previously.

It doesnt matter at that point what he believes in because he has been taken by the dark side. The message of Lucas is that if you want power in politics, you become a bad person.

Pretty much what I said then. We know he did it, but there's no "Why" provided. No insight on his character's motivations.

>but there's no "Why" provided
obeyed his master's will. He was a Sheev pawn.

>Gets mad because user assumes he is American
>Assumes user is a mouth breather
This board is shit

Head canon. Doesn't explain why he became his pawn in the first place. He was a Jedi first, afterall.

He shed blood of the Saxon men. .

I agree, but its logical and a flaw of the writing his motivation is missing

user is a mouth breather. He's also unironically defending the star wars prequels, meaning he's probably also got fetal alcohol syndrome or some other developmental disorder.

Do you really need the dialogue to spell out what exactly a character's motivations are?

You can infer from the situation and his behaviors past and present. God, Sup Forums posters are fucking retarded beyond belief.

That's a shitty cop out. Vader was a shallow character in ANH but you can still glean a lot about the Empire as a whole from what the movie establishes and infer based on it since his motives are clearly in line with them.

Things you learn with minimal input in ANH:
>Vader is not one to long suffer fools
>The Empire's goal is to subjugate and maintain territories with a new age of terror driven politics
>The Empire has worked hard to dissolve a senate, achieving this goal just prior to the events of the movie. So their goal is to have absolute control.

What we learn about Dooku:
>He is called an idealist.
>He is aligned with rich clans who wanted more pull in the senate.
>He is convinced diplomacy is out of the question for ??? reasons.
>He was not aware of or complicit in Sheev's full plan/string pulling.

this looks horrible

Shit. Forgot my whole follow up point.

So you can then ask the basic question for both: Why are they doing this and why are we, the Good Guys™ against them? For Vader it's crystal clear, if simple. Simple can be good. For Dooku, it never comes across that he's anything more than just a pawn with hazy motives for how he earned that position.

You can't.

"gave in to the dark side" is not enough. He was a fucking Jedi. What made him go rogue? That sort of flip needs to be explained in some way.

Count Dooku. Apprentice of Yoda, Master of Qui-Gon, expert fencer, left the Jedi Order at some point because of idealism, lost faith in the Republic due to its corruption, joined the Sith in response.

Let me school you, son.
>He is called an idealist.
By a Jedi, Ki-Adi-Mundi, who was probably shit-tier among Jedi on the Council and who assumed that Dooku's resignation from the Jedi Order was purely politically driven. This retard Jedi is the same one that's taken down by just a few stormtroopers in Ep 3. Like most of the other Jedi, he failed to see that Sheev was right under his nose the whole time and had corrupted Dooku even before he left the Jedi Order.
>He is aligned with rich clans who wanted more pull in the senate.
After he aligned with Sheev and assumed he was in on his plan to control the galaxy together as Sith Lords.
>He is convinced diplomacy is out of the question for ??? reasons.
Because war is in the interest of those in power. Didn't you read Machiavelli's The Prince in high school? Jesus, I bet you're a fucking dumbass high school dropout.
>He was not aware of or complicit in Sheev's full plan/string pulling.
He was aware and complicit in Sheev's plan to nearly its full execution except one part, where Sheev was planning all along to betray him and replace him with Anakin. So, in other words, he was fully complicit except for the one part he was not meant to know, meaning that to him, all his actions are perfectly logical.

State your evidence and defend your claim
Do you know user personally?
Or are you making assumptions based on statistics?

What are you fucking expecting, a flashback scene where Sheev approaches him and promises him power? You're a brain dead moron.

>Do you know user personally?
yes

>exposition is bad

Star Wars movies require you to accept that all dark side characters are Objectively Evil and all light side characters are Objectively Good. Not to mention the classic point that they are all movies for children.

>Ki-Adi-Mundi,
Cool. Where did you get that name from? Where did you get any of that other headcanon sounding shit from?

Follow the rules of the thread man. We're discussing character outside of wookiepedia.

>After he aligned with Sheev and assumed he was in on his plan to control the galaxy together as Sith Lords.

Why did he do this? His path to Sheev as best as we can glean from what little is described, is he seems to have wanted to fight for the fringe of the galaxy with smaller or unheard voices. We can headcanon that out into an almost sympathetic angle but it's at odds with everything else shown.

Meanwhile we know Vader very clearly is a totalitarian minded man with aspirations both in line with how the Empire operates in the present, and what Obi Wan says to describe him briefly in ANH just goes in line with it. Even after it's revealed Anakin is Vader in ESB. We have an idealist crusader with a totalitarian edge who was seduced by greater power he felt would afford him this. His characterization is simple and never at odds with itself or hazy.


Fair enough on the last bit.

except in 4-7 they made anakin and the sith cause far more sympathetic and rooted within the dysfunction of the senatorial system. they portrayed the jedi as incompetent and dogmatic to the point of arrogant.

there was far more nuance in the newer films, which is largely why they fell flat because the added complexity was never explored properly.

was count dooku supposed to be sifo dyas?

No, Sifo Dyas was originally Qui Gon. He was the rebel Jedi who foresaw the corruption of the Republic and placed the order. The biggest giveaway in AOTC is when the Kaminoans are informed by Obi Wan that he was killed 10 years ago, exactly the number of years AOTC takes place after TPM.

Why were there people rebelling against the republic in the first place again?

Sifo Diyas is close enough to Sidious. Make what you will of that

The way you or I or anyone perceive the jedi or sith doesn't matter compared to the films' clear message that dark side=evil and light side=good.

Yes the jedi are emotionally restrictive and oppressive and it's pretty obvious that dark side users only exist as a result of the harsh expectations of the jedi order, but to argue the merits of the dark side just seems like an attempt to rile up star wars autists.

Bloated senate. Big dogs got all the meat. Others withered in anonymity.

The Empire held promise in issuing actions like aid with fewer bureaucratic road blocks in its path but it had a corrupt Emperor at its head so it did nothing to actually fix these issues. It actually exacerbated them as it quickly established power for senators in Sheev's favor and subjugated all others. Heavily taxing them to line pockets.

Everything he said besides the character's name is from the movies, you idiot.

>Why did he do this?
Because he wanted more power, political or personal.

It's a case of motivations being at odds with results. The Jedi were motivated to stifle what they saw as dangerous behaviors instead of working to better comprehend the how's and why's. The Sith honestly aren't that grey. Not as people like to present. They're invariably power trippers who get triggered by restrictions. The kind of person you don't want to give a gun is the person who REALLY wants a gun and no rules for its use. They're completely unsympathetic and only get worse once they fall.

The Senate was being controlled by big corporate interests like the Trade Federation (aka Hillary by her Wall Street donors) until Padme moved for a vote of no confidence in Episode I (this was in the movie) and Sheev (aka TRUMP) was nominated to stand for the little people (like the people of Naboo being oppressed by the Trade Federation) and threw out the corrupt bureaucracy while centralizing power. The corporate interests didn't like this and they formed the Separatist movement (the SJW movement) which was essentially headed by greedy Nemoidians (Chinese, clearly with their thick Asian accent) and bankers (those guys sitting around the table in Episode II saying that they're bankers) with a hooded figure with a big nose manipulating things from the background (Sidious, playing the role of the shifty Jew).

Lucas is a genius.

>Sith are Objectively Evil
>Jedi are Objectively Good
>Yet the prequels constantly show the Jedi as being misguided and hypocritical, blinded by their own power and hubris
Really makes you think.

>Trump is secretly a Jew pulling all the strings from behind the scenes
So this is how democracy ends... with thund'rous applause.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Meaning that you are aligned with the Sith, who constantly deal in deception. Meaning that you're lying about this. Meaning that the Sith are actually possibly the good guys and the Jedi are the ones blinded by their power and arrogance (mentioned by Yoda in Ep 2, and echoed by Sidious in Ep 3) while the Sith are humbly trying to restore balance and order in the galaxy, with only 2 instead of a bloated Order of hundreds.

Just think about it, if the Jedi are really the good guys, then why did they fail so miserably and the Sith won so easily? The Empire is only shown as violent in the movies because the Rebels keep being violent first. Other than being violent as a measure of fighting war, the Sith-controlled Empire LITERALLY DO NOTHING WRONG THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE FUCKING TRILOGY!

Count Doo Doo

He counted the Doo Doo

PHHRARFFFPPPPPPPPPP
BRAAAAAPPPPPPPFTTTTTT
BBBBBUUUUUUUUYYYYSSSSSSSSSSIIIIFGT

Man, that's shitty green screen.

But Sheev and Sidious are the same p-

How does Lucas come up with these dumb names? No one om earth has a name like that

He has creative genius, which a pleb mind like yours could never grasp.

Go back to your easily digestible mainstream Jewish media, you circumcised cuck.

>No one om earth has a name like that

He was disillusioned by the Jedi and how the republic used them so he started a rebellion to create a sepparate system of planets..

The politics is the least complicated thing about these fucking films..

The real question is how much of the story Dooku told Obi-Wan was true, and how much of it was from a "certain point of view"

Sith deal in "lies and deception," so a jedi will automatically discount the words of a sith lord. So assuming that the jedi will automatically disbelieve him, he might as well expose the truth.

He's a political idealist

But he made Major Murder with Sifo Dyas' blood or some retarded shit didn't he?

Are there any decent books about Dooku? This thread is making me realise what wasted potential he was in the movies.

So was maul. He is sifo dyas

woow such motivations

what a multilayered and complex villian

ill say

From entirely what's available in the movies?

He was a former Jedi who left the order because it was blind for all its supposed wisdom, then was approached by Sidious the Sith Lord. Despite having left the order he was not evil or wicked and refused Sidious' request to help him bring down the republic, initiating the droid-fuelled rebellion.

He wasn't lieing when he told Obi-Wan that a Sith Lord had infiltrated the Senate.

addendum: people thinking he was a sith who was poorly concealing his motivations was being played by sheev

I don't remember much from the prequels, even though I rewatched them this year, but I do remember dooku looking at sheev as if he had betrayed him before he was killed in RoTS. I'm pretty sure he reports to sheev multiple times across AoTC and RoTS.

Your dooku dindu nuffin narrative is bullshit.

>Count Dooku: The truth. What if I told you that the Republic is now under the control of a Dark Lord of the Sith?
>Obi-Wan Kenobi: No, that's not possible! The Jedi would be aware it!
>Count Dooku: The Dark Side of the Force has clouded their vision, my friend. Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious.
>Obi-Wan Kenobi: I don't believe you.
>Count Dooku: The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious, but he was betrayed ten years ago by the Dark Lord. He came to me for help; he told me everything. You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together we will destroy the Sith!
Is there any reason to not believe this is completely true? I think Dooku was always biding his time until he was in a position to take out Sheev. Though I think he also realized the Jedi were incompetent and had qualms leaving the Jedi Order.

>tells obi the republic is under the control of a sith lord
>jedi never consider the supreme chancellor is the sith lord

Count Dooku
Was an ex-Jedi who wanted to get rid of the corrupt Republic and Jedi and start a Sith Empire with his Master Darth Sidious.

just another example of lucas' brilliant writing

I think he always believed that Sidious was just too damn unpredictable, but he was too strong for him to take him out. Jedi wouldn't do anything about it, so he figured he'd take his side until he can destroy him.