Bach's overrated as fuck. His music lacks dynamics, harmonically he relies on the BACH progression way too much, and melodically he relies way too much on the same ascending/descending lines (you hear them a ton on WTC and the Brandenburgs the most) and also relies on that trill sounding end to his cadences a lot, too. For the sake of always having wildly running counterpoint, the music sacrifices itself in all other aspects to achieve this.
Joseph Perry
prove you are a patrician with just ONE post
Mason Perez
My post is right above yours so you know for a fact that I am as patrician as it gets.
is a third to an octave or fifth allowed in strict voice leading?
Chase White
mu/ gods please help. You guys in classical know it best so please could you help me with naming this on song. It's dark, strong and heavy. Only strings in the beginning, they descend in half steps. The song is sad and the violins start with smaller intervals but then go to some octave jumps. Thank you so much, if a classic pro could help me.
youtu.be/9O7rtElmbOw Seong Jin Cho is absolutely amazing and I can unironically say that this is the best recording of the suite bergambasque I've ever heard.
inb4 Michelangeli fanboys, yes this recording is better
Sebastian Sanders
>can't dissociate the work from its author Stop breathing
Ryder Nelson
I also want to say that this is the holocaust remembrance day and we should all take some time to remember the 6 million. I have many family members tht died in the holocaust. Never again.
Being Jewish the holocaust is something very personal. My parents talked about it every day when I grew up. We must never forget.
Jeremiah Bell
alright, here's your (you).
Thomas Thomas
This but the exact opposite.
Charles Young
>taking something personally that happened the better part of century ago. This is the problem with you Jews. You need to learn to let things go.
Eli Miller
Why are these threads always 90% youtube links and 10% discussion? Might as well go to reddit desu
John Rivera
Janine?
Josiah Moore
What do I have to prove to you?
Lucas Campbell
Yeah, because as we all know it really affected you personally. You know, you had to hide and fear for you life at every waking moment. Grow up
Lucas Smith
See, every time I bring up the shortcomings of Bach, other posters either say that I am trolling or they try to troll me. This is because there's absolutely nothing wrong in what I said as it's 100% true.
Jayden Nguyen
>shortcomings of Bach
Now you just seem like a butthurt Debbie fan
Zachary Stewart
why does everyone seem to hate this guy?
Kevin Cooper
>trying to swerve the discussion by claiming I am a Debussy fan although I never claimed such a thing Come on, this is /classical/. You guys are smarter than to pull shit like this. Also no, Debussy is overrated, too. Bach, Debussy, and Satie are the trilogy of overrated as fuck composers. But lets keep this to Bach for this discussion as that's who it's been about so far. You guys got nothing you can feasibly say, show, or prove about the lack of creativity in so many aspects of Bach's music.
Jaxson Garcia
there was a parallel in "shortcomings of Bach" to "shortcomings of Debussy" in the other thread
Sebastian Scott
I dislike the Bach God worship as much as the next guy (particularly since the same people will then go on to complain about Mozart being overrated) however you speak like someone who has not invested any serious amount of time exploring the cantatas where Bach writes some of his most viscerally human and emotional music that isn't just loads of fugues.
However was listening to the last big of the Art of Fugue the other day and was surprised by how struck I was when the final contrapunctus cuts out
Grayson Murphy
Only the people who care about a composers personal life more than his music.
Haas is based af.
>every time I bring up the shortcomings of Bach I've yet to see any valid shortcomings mentioned. Feel fry to try again though.
Dynamics in baroque music are often left to the performer, so you don't see a lot of dynamic markings - that's just the period. BACH is not a harmonic progression, if you knew anything about Bach's harmony you would understand he uses almost every tonal harmony under the sun, all in constant modulation. >melodically he relies way too much on the same ascending/descending lines No more or less than any other composer. If anything he subverts the straight scalic run much more than composers of his period.
>relies on that trill sounding end to his cadences a lot Another common device of the period. Not overused in Bach imo, its always tasteful.
>For the sake of always having wildly running counterpoint, the music sacrifices itself in all other aspects to achieve this. Not at all, he combines his use of counterpoint with harmony and emotional impact. In fact he often compromises his counterpoint for the sake of voice leading or emotion.
tl:dr you don't know shit about Bach, so don't talk shit about him.
If you're complaining about Baroque period writing, why not complain about about picardy thirds or writing too many fugues or other non-criticisms?
Kayden Smith
>Dynamics in baroque music are often left to the performer, so you don't see a lot of dynamic markings - that's just the period. That still doesn't justify the non-existent use of dynamics in the music played by his performers. Sure I guess this is more the fault of conductors and performers but that still makes music under his name boring as shit. >BACH is not a harmonic progression, You're right, I am wrong here. Bach's a MOTIF he uses a lot, not a harmonic progression he uses way too much. >if you knew anything about Bach's harmony you would understand he uses almost every tonal harmony under the sun, all in constant modulation. Constant modulation of playing the same damn progressions in different keys. I was wrong to blame this on the BACH motif, but the progression ends to his cadences are, like the trills, borderline ubiquitous. >No more or less than any other composer. You would be absurd to compare him to better composers who don't do such runs at all as they are far more focused on being expressive to have straightforward runs like that. I never called them scalar either btw because they are not, rather they all go by very similar intervals (again, the easiest example of this is Brandenburg 3) >Another common device of the period. Doesn't mean it's worth being overused especially in the realm of Western art music which has such conversational/emotional depth within the music itself. >Not overused in Bach imo, its always tasteful. Outside maybe the vocal based stuff (Mass, Passion, Cantatas) I can find at least one example of this in at least 90% of everything else he wrote which is still over 900 works.
To be continued in next post
Jonathan Price
...
Luke Rivera
>Not at all, he combines his use of counterpoint with harmony and emotional impact. In fact he often compromises his counterpoint for the sake of voice leading or emotion. This is very untrue for a couple reasons. An individual Bach cadence will admittedly have a large variety of chords within its progression, I won't disagree with that. But then every cadence, regardless of key, does that same exact kind of complex progression. Not only that, he often will have fast, linear patterns of notes where the pattern is repeated with a different set each cycle with no change in rhythm of said pattern or anything. The dude's the epitome of throwing away emotion for the sake of having these "varied" chord progressions and busy sounding counterpoint. I will admit that his vocal based works are nowhere near as guilty of the criticisms I have laid on him as his other stuff that's for sure.
That's what a flute being played loud enough to be heard in a concert hall sounds like up close The sound is the air filling the instrument before it starts to resonate the tone
Oliver Gonzalez
breath. Although not sure why we're hearing it, unless there's some strange mic-work going on.
Liam Davis
>That still doesn't justify the non-existent use of dynamics in the music played by his performers Now you're complaining about performers rather than his music. Maybe try actually listening to some solo performances - Schiff's WTC, any of the Solo violin partitas / sonatas.
>that still makes music under his name boring as shit. Nope. Lack of dynamics is (like I have already told you) an element of the period. Bach's music is full of interest - it doesn't need dynamics to be interesting. Modern performers just add them in for a bit more spice.
>I am wrong here on so many levels.
>but the progression ends to his cadences are, like the trills, borderline ubiquitous. Cadences in renaissance, baroque and classical period are generally very predictable and as you say "ubiquitous" this is not a valid criticism of Bach's music. He uses perfect cadences, big woop, so does every common practice and renaissance composer.
>I never called them scalar either btw because they are not, Ah so you're not complaining about scalar runs, just some "runs" that you don't like. I'd ask you to give specific examples rather than an entire piece, but I really don't care about your shitty opinion.
> every cadence, regardless of key, does that same exact kind of complex progression You mean V - I ? that's what a cadence is. Everything leading up to those 2 chords is usually much more complex than other composers of the period.
>The dude's the epitome of throwing away emotion for the sake of having these "varied" chord progressions and busy sounding counterpoint. He has a wide variety of works, the Brandenburgs for example were written for Frederick William I, and are not particularly designed with emotion in mind, more light entertainment in a court setting. If you want emotion, listen to the violin sonatas or WTC or St Matthew Passion.
Stringing out your retardation into longer posts doesn't make it any more valid. Don't be surprised if I don't reply next time.
Jayden Moore
>Maybe try actually listening to some solo performances - Schiff's WTC, any of the Solo violin partitas / sonatas. You're delusional if you think there's a ton of variety in dynamics in solo violin/string stuff in general. >Bach's music is full of interest - it doesn't need dynamics to be interesting I wouldn't complain about this if his music was really engaging on some level after multiple listens, but it ain't. >this is not a valid criticism of Bach's music. He uses perfect cadences, big woop, so does every common practice and renaissance composer. This isn't really true the further you go away from baroque forwards especially with mid-late classical onwards a lot of which "broke the rules" for the sake of aesthetic and emotional impact. Bach's music comparatively hasn't aged well. >just some "runs" that you don't like I already mentioned throughout my post about them being straightforward linear patterns which bring nothing exciting, and are equivalent of some wank guitarist like Yngwie Malmsteen just straightforward shredding (which is also often not entirely scalar but boring). >I'd ask you to give specific examples rather than an entire piece Have you never listened to Brandenburg 3? You'll hear it a ton within the first few minutes alone. >than other composers of the period. Sure, but that doesn't make it engaging in today's world when we the music of people who came after him who did so much more. >WTC >For emotion The damn thing was meant to be learning/study tool for younger performers/composers. >but I really don't care about your shitty opinion. >Don't be surprised if I don't reply next time See, this is just really dumb because you have already dedicated a couple walls of text to me, and then suddenly deciding you won't reply. You can't even decide whether you care or not. I think that you know you're on the losing side here, thus are choosing to potentially not reply.
Why are your posts 90% faggotry and 10% non-faggotry?
Hudson Collins
As long as you don't shit on my boys Brahms and Scriabin
Zachary Stewart
Not same user, but I think what he means is >I love Wagner, but I also love him because he was an anti semite If that's what user meant, user is bro tier HAIL user
Thomas Ortiz
I don't speak Italian, but I think this is about an emperor vowing revenge or simply proclaiming outrage. The idea of a benevolent monarch, or a tyrant who undergoes a change of heart, were popular tropes of this style. To me, this is what Æneas himself would've sounded like.
She makes some incredible faces to hit those notes, but I assure you, this is singing of the highest order. It's about a young woman resolving to be strong, or some such.
Question for the nerds. Can Vivaldi's Four Seasons properly be called "program music", despite predating the Romantic era and its conventions?
Wyatt Robinson
>You're delusional if you think there's a ton of variety in dynamics in solo violin/string stuff in general. You have no idea what you're talking about. Broad generalizations like this is pure retardation. Strings are some of the most dynamic instruments around.
>I wouldn't complain about this if his music was really engaging on some level after multiple listens, but it ain't I don't think you're intelligent enough to engage with Bach's music, or any great composer for that matter.
>Bach's music comparatively hasn't aged well. Bach's music doesn't age. It is timeless.
>that doesn't make it engaging in today's world It does if you engage with it (as most people in the classical world do). Its down to the person rather than the music. You are a person that cannot engage with Bach's music. Its fine, you are a just pleb.
>WTC >For emotion Yes. If you listen, it is full of emotion, charm and pretty much every aspect of music.
>you have already dedicated a couple walls of text to me you have been soundly BTFO, you have no valid criticisms of Bach at this point, and it would require actual knowledge of how his music works to come up with some.
I'm getting tired of putting your retardation into perspective, eventually I will lose interest and you will probably get the last word, just be sure to know this doesn't make you right.
Bach's music takes a high level of maturity to appreciate. If you prefer late classical and romantic music, that's fine. Some people never grow to love Bach, but those who do find it the most satisfying and varied musical experience in the canon. I suggest learning music theory, learning about composition, then looking at Bach's scores. You will see the incredible things he does, all while maintaining emotional expression and charm.
Connor Harris
One of these would've undoubtedly been sung by a young boy or eunuch. The instruments would've sounded softer and been tuned just a bit lower.
Jacob Edwards
...
Oliver Carter
What have you listened to on Mozart's birthday today?
>too much of an attentionlet to listen to a whole piece at once
Hudson Nelson
take up meditation, one hour a day
Landon Phillips
What are you listening to? Listen to something between 5 - 15 minutes and then move on to longer stuff. >mom I hate Jews am I cool yet?
Charles Brown
>Broad generalizations like this is pure retardation. You are pretending to act retarded now by pretending to act like I am shitting on the instruments in general rather than the Bach works you mentioned which are nowhere near as dynamic as you claim to be. Fuck off with this disingenuous shit. >I don't think you're intelligent enough to engage with Bach's music, or any great composer for that matter. >It does if you engage with it (as most people in the classical world do). Its down to the person rather than the music. You are a person that cannot engage with Bach's music. Its fine, you are a just pleb. >Bach's music takes a high level of maturity to appreciate You're pulling the "to be fair" high iq rick n morty with Bach. How fitting. Most of what I said can't be said without engaging with the music to note for said boring patterns. >Bach's music doesn't age. It is timeless. Except this is not true, and processes towards composition related to practices about things like dynamics and tempo prove this (along with obvious improvement in the usual things like technology) >you have been soundly BTFO, you have no valid criticisms of Bach at this point, and it would require actual knowledge of how his music works to come up with some. I haven't been close to being soundly BTFO. Note how in your earlier posts you were using actual facets of the music itself, and in this one all you really did was call me a retard and have three different variations on the pretentious, laughable "to be fair you gotta have a really high iq to appreciate Bach" bullshit.
>and pretty much every aspect of music Not dynamics!
Ian Cruz
nothing in particular. I've been listening seriously for years but when a movemment ends I usually go and do something else. Sometimes I don't even finish the piece until much later
Luis Brooks
was is autism?
Adrian Cox
>pretending to act like I am shitting on the instruments in general >You're delusional if you think there's a ton of variety in dynamics in solo violin/string stuff in general. >solo violin/string stuff in general. >in general. yeah it definitely sounds like you're being super specific and referring to bach's work here, user
I mean, like shit, if you can follow the damn conversation it wouldn't be tough to figure out the context. It's not like you guys are so autistic that contexts within conversations get lost to you.
Josiah Martin
>It's not like you guys are so autistic that contexts within conversations get lost to you. toppest of top keks
James Murphy
>Meditation >Not christian prayer The absolute state of Sup Forums
Thomas Jackson
Why is he seen along the lines of Mozart and Mahler, instead of being compared with the Beatles and Steely Dan?
Thomas Sullivan
I tend to take breaks between movements. I mean I guess it doesn't really matter if I end up enjoying it regardless
Dylan Fisher
Idk, you're right. Instead of being stuck Mozart and Mahler, he should be much further up there with Beatles and Steely Dan.
Carson Moore
I mean, in either of these contexts you're just plain wrong. The nature of string instruments means they can play quieter than pianos, and crescendos and decrescendos are pretty easy to do. The potential to perform in a wide dynamic range is there. And as someone who plays the Bach cello suites, just because Bach didn't notate dynamics doesn't mean they're all played at the same level or that he intended for them to be played that way. The dynamic range in these pieces is huge
>And as someone who plays the Bach cello suites, just because Bach didn't notate dynamics doesn't mean they're all played at the same level or that he intended for them to be played that way. The dynamic range in these pieces is huge Again, theoretically this should be true because I never actually shat on the string instruments themselves. But in practice the display of dynamics is non-existent. The way Bach structures his music doesn't really encourage them either as it's relatively straightforward.
