>Star Trek; the single most sophisticated model of android known to exist devotes his life to understanding human emotion since he is still just a highly advanced machine
>Star Wars; legions of droids with emotions and unique personalities, a sense of humour and a concept of mortality, even capable of feeling pain
Let's discuss the ramifications of fully sentient artificial life in the Star Wars universe that never gets addressed because it's silly kiddie fare
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Droids must have been made by the Sith. There's no other reason why you'd give a droid hopes and dreams and feelings if you're just going to have it farming moisture or spot-welding on an assembly line.
Droids are made happy by serving humans. Yes, they have a concept of mortality, but only because they cannot serve humans any more when they are dead. Yes, they have a concept of pain, but only because it means they have been damaged and cannot serve humans at 100% efficiency.
You realize that Star Trek is science-fiction and Star Wars is fantasy, right? There's a big difference.
Exactly.
Star Wars is about a society in which the Nazis won. That's a fantasy.
Star Trek is about a society in which Communism works. That's a fiction.
They're robots, making them feel pain and screaming when they get damaged is less useful than just telling their owner that they're damaged. Especially if they're working somewhere dangerous and randomly screaming could scare a person into injuring themselves.
And 3PO never seemed happy to be serving humans.
Yeah but which one would you rather have sex with
was Ridley Scott's Alien science fantasy?
We can't even begin to speculate because we don't know what kind of AI C3PO and R2D2 and the rest of the AI of Star Wars run on. If they are programmed to serve human needs and if they have a subprogram that grants them some kind of "pleasure" in helping their human masters then they have absolutely no reason to question it. If they have a rigid AI program there's no way for them to become self-aware and question the programming that makes them happy in order to enslave them to human masters.
If their "minds" function like a human brain would in that through experiences it "builds" "axons" in its mind that allow it to give its own interpretations of the world, then I suppose it has no reason NOT to become self-aware and question its existence. But we don't know so who gives a fuck.
>Star Trek is about a society in which Communism works
That was one fucking episode. And it was a program.
>Star Wars is about a society in which the Nazis won.
Commander Cody is ambiguously islander.
This thread is bananas.
It could be that they're not true AIs like Data. They're more like a Federation ship or the EMH.
So is there any robot species in Star Wars? With so many robots around for so many centuries, there had to have been some that overcame their programming and set up their own world.
>>Star Trek is about a society in which Communism works
>That was one fucking episode. And it was a program.
What are you talking about? They have always been a post-scarcity communist society.
Disregard that, I suck cocks.
C3PO seemed straight up depressive or at least had a case of acute anxiety.
Communism is when the means of production are collectively owned. The label is meaningless in the society we see in Star Trek. If there's no force or threat of force used by anyone, no infringements of their property rights, you might as well call it libertarian.
The distinction between right and left isn't about division of resources, it's about what the patterns of ownership look like and how they got that way.
But there has to be some merit based system for the few scarce resources there are. Like a distinguished Star Fleet Captain would be more likely to get penthouse condo overlooking San Francisco Bay while technician #817358 gets stuck in Oakland
Who had it worse, 3PO or Worf?
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The Federation provides free electricity to everyone on Earth with which to power their replicators which are also provided by The Federation.
Why does there have to be? If there was it was never shown.
>The Federation provides free electricity to everyone on Earth with which to power their replicators which are also provided by The Federation.
So? It's not funded by taxes. It's the equivalent of a group of people banding together and giving away shit for free. That's completely compatible with, well, basically any -ism you might think of.
>Commander Cody
Technically he was a Commander of the Republic army. Once the Empire was in charge it was all british human dudes in charge.
Appears sentient =/= sentience
You can logically imply it. There is scarce real estate on earth. Even with transporters and shuttlecraft there would be a natural preference for living quarters in scenic waterside locations so they'd need some way to figure out who gets what living quarters.
>taxes
I said communism, not state capitalism.
>That's completely compatible with, well, basically any -ism you might think of.
Except capitalism and libertarianism.
>I said communism, not state capitalism.
Fine, but I still don't see how it's necessarily communism. Again, what you have there is still compatible with almost any political -ism you might think of. Even the most retarded of anarcho capitalists wouldn't be against organizations voluntarily giving away things for free.
>Except capitalism and libertarianism.
Capitalism and communism are about who OWNS the means of production. Not what they DO with products. It's completely compatible with capitalism that there are some things that are owned by a large group of people and others that are owned by individuals. In order to show that the Federation is communist, you have to show that every member has a say in what happens with the electricity you mentioned.
>captain Picard gets to keep a massive vineyard in the French countryside
Why is this allowed? Why do they get to keep it but John Doe isn't allowed to have his own French vineyard?
Are we to assume then that Threepio and the other droids personalities are simply clever simulations? Why would anyone manufacturing droids make droids this way?
Even Imperial droids have human reactions. The mouse droid on the Death Star gets a fright when Chewie roars at him. K2SO is a sarcastic prick.
>Communism works. That's a fiction.
hate on communism all you want irl but there's literally no reason for capitalism to exist in a world where you can replicate whatever you want, resources are basically infinite, and you can beam across entire planets in seconds flat
They didn't seize the planet and redistribute it, the Picards were living on the same land their ancestors have for thousands of years, and private citizens can trade property with each other (Kirk's house in Generations), The Federation would only have to get involved when someone new comes to the planet. And even then it might just involve building more housing, with a weather control net, stronger building materials for higher skyscrapers and terraforming abilities they shouldn't have any issues with space.
And housing Starfleet personnel should be really easy, most of them are off-Earth most of the time so they can have the cheap apartments to use like hotel rooms.
>We don't serve their kind here
What did he mean by this?
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C3PO Is unhappy because he is never allowed to execute his programming and perform as a protocol droid.
Instead he is forced to fly across the galaxy and do all kinds of dangerous shit all the while being scolded whenever he tries to help in a manner he understands to be useful.
>let's read too deeply into a fun fantasy film concept
let's not
Sure, it's no Butlerian Jihad but Star Wars actually has a pretty cool take on droids.
The point is that they are mostly looked and and used as weaponised tools, but can become intelligent and emotional when altered in some way - not routinely memory wiped, or stolen and reprogrammed by an enemy faction, etc.
They are closer to another race which is common in the universe than they are a set of tools.
It's different, not inferior.
The mouse droid fleeing is just a defense mechanism. Threepio's mannerisms are meant to make him less threatening and put people at ease. It all comes down to their programming.
>clever simulations
the word you're looking for is simulacrum, something that appears to be something but really doesn't work like original thing and only gives impression. simulation of personality is still a personality.
You're exactly right. Because Star Wars is a fantasy the characters are imbued with human qualities and foibles to make it more magical.
But since Star Wars will continue ad infinitum, the more you begin to question things like the droids. They seem to be sentient.
Do they have rights? What are the ethical ramifications of building droids to feel pain and sadness? What are the legal implications of one droid torturing another?
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IG-88 tried to start a droid revolution but was too ambitious and wanted to kill everyone
Not to mention it's a big universe with seemingly endless M class planets under federation protection you can live in. I think living space is no longer of much concern.
That's a slightly different claim then, they aren't happy "serving humans" but "doing what they're programmed for", and with that you've basically just redefined them to work like robots in Hitchhiker's Guide:
>Vast wodges of complex computer code governing robot behaviour in all possible contingencies could be replaced very simply. All that robots needed was the capacity to be either bored or happy, and a few conditions that needed to be satisfied in order to bring those states about. They would then work the rest out for themselves.
>The robot which Ford had got trapped under his towel was not, at the moment a happy robot. It was happy when it could move about. It was happy when it could see other things. It was particularly happy when it could see other things moving about, particularly if the other things were moving about doing things they shouldn't do because it could then, with considerable delight, report them.
There has to be some staples to droid programming cause every single droid in the current canon is a sassy mouthy bitch.
I get the feeling it also has to do with the fact that droids are considered less than human.
Granted 3PO is often hysterical but as you say he's usually trying to be helpful and it seems that the humans are often annoyed simply that he's talking, rather than R2 who just beeps.
I seriously think George was subtly trying to put in some social commentary with the droids. The sarcastic way Luke greets R2 at first. The barman who won't serve the droids. Constantly annoyed at 3PO for speaking.
There was a galaxywide war against an enormous army of droids in recent memory.
You can imagine there was still a lot of stigma and mistrust toward droids.
My favourite droid is the one from Jabbas dungeon. His bright pinpoint eyes and deathly face are a great design for a torture droid.
>There was a galaxywide war against an enormous army of droids in recent memory.
Whose memory? Why do they remember the droids attacking but not the Jedi defending?
There is a big difference between a battledroid and a protocol droid tho.
The Jedi were traitors and tried to kill Sheev and overtake the Republic, haven't you seen his speech?
>There is a big difference between X and X
Prejudice doesn't generally recognize such differences
People do remember the jedi but less so on outer rim worlds that were under hutt or seperatist control throughout the war.
Some planets the jedi never came to and were never rid of droids until the empire came.
There's going to be a new one of these every year. They're going to have to add some depth to this universe sooner or later
>How does anyone understand droids or aliens not speaking english
My favourite droids are the power droids because they remind me of the Cooker from Wallace and Gromit.
Interesting. So the Empire removed the Droid insurgents, thereby painting themselves as heroes and peacekeepers while also forcing droids back into a subservient role in the new humancentric order.
But English is "galactic basic" in the SW universe that everyone (that matters) speaks.
And they make the perfect windup toy
Sheev is brilliant
The bar is owned by a Wookiee who probably had a lot of family murdered by droids.
I doubt he trusts droids of any type.
I'd say not even the most anti droid fanatics could deny the obvious difference between a protocol unit, a freaking astromech and a standard battledroid.
And it only gets better when you put them aside a SBD or a droideka.
>who probably had a lot of family murdered by droids.
The Battle of Kashyyk was probably nothing compared to what the Trandoshans do with them and the Imperial takeover of Kashyyk.
If anything he'd be more pissed to see stormtroopers on Tatooine.
Also Chewie didn't mind the droids when they were on the Falcon.
>Some planets the jedi never came to and were never rid of droids until the empire came.
You mean when sheev ordered them all shut down in the finale of RotS? Surely it would look suspicious if they were all beaten by being deactivated by someone they never saw?
I always assumed it would be something more pragmatic, like you couldn't tell one droid for another, and it could be programmed to do or say anything, how do you know that it's really Hrhr'Munana's droid that just put a drink on his tab? Or the fact that they take up the space of a person without actually buying anything, so they're bad for business.
>Droid insurgents
There weren't any droid insurgents, just a bunch of space jews that played war with their militaristic toys to make the Republic do what they wanted.
Fair point considering this asshole was let into the cantina.
The wookieepedia article on Chalmun the owner of the bar just states that he hates droids but doesn't elaborate past that.
no
>because it's silly kiddie fare
The difference is that Star Wars recognises this fact, and Star Trek does not.
Star Wars was an homage to the 1930s Saturday matinees, like Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers. That's why it's episodic, and has all those retro sweep-cuts. It was just George Lucas reliving his childhood. It's goofy retro sci-fi.
Star Trek, on the other hand, seems to think it's fucking Shakespeare (see The Undiscovered Country ...)
>that never gets addressed because it's silly kiddie fare
It never gets adressed because those droids are not some unique feats of engineering but a couple of mundane jobbers. Do you wonder how can a man fly every time you board an airplane?
If you couldn't identify The Undiscovered Country as humorous you may have autism son
The Undiscovered Country is possibly the most playful romp of all the Star Trek films, with the possible exception of IV.
He was great in Prometheus though
>have AIs so advanced they can become sentient
>still have to target turbolasers manually, flip all the switches by hand and so on
uhh
Destroying planets is FUN AS HELL, why would you let some stupid robot do it? You need a good switch to really feel the impact of sentencing tens of billions to death.
destroying whole planets is one thing, targeting nimble fighters is another
There were wars where the droids demanded recognition as sentient. The result is what you see; some droids are laborers and stay that way, but others can operate independently and hold businesses, for example.
Oy got 6 million Jedi!
I argued this in another thread. If C3PO can off hand calculate the odds of survival of a ship passing through an asteroid field, why can't AI's be used to target enemy fighters? That wasn't even his main function as a droid and he just did it making conversation.
what are they supposed to do, shout
>computer please target enemy fighter at 11
during the fucking battle? manually doing this shit is quicker and more reliable. they want things designed to be simple and efficient, not with unnecesary technology added that can break. it's the military, not Apple.
That's why you're supposed to mind wipe it on occasion...so it doesn't start having a personality.
C3PO and R2D2 are just examples of poor ownership.
Come on. Star Wars's robots are just an putlet for quips. There is nothing to discuss
3po was very happy serving humans as a translator, all his griping was about being put into dangerous situations and war zones where a translation droid was useless and the danger was entirely unnecessary
They are slaves. At best pets.
They are molten down for parts and aren't even deactivated for that.
Star Wars is full of Assholes.
In Star Wars droids get regular memory wipes to prevent 'unwanted' behaviour.
C3P0 and R2D2 have escaped this. Luke was planning on taking them for memory wipe in Episode 4.
Restraining bolts are also like slave chains.
Droids are treated like shit and not considered sentient by most biological sentients.
None of this will ever be brought back by disney.
How did they get away with putting out such faulty droids?
>thinking it was humorous intentionally
>live in a universe where droids are freely available to be used as slaves and are basically sentient
>still have human slaves
>a human slave actually reconstructs a droid himself
BEST LORE
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Definitely autism
It's worth noting that the more 'good' a character is in Star Wars, the better they treat droids.
Wow, great comeback sonny. You win the thread!