Alright, Sup Forums, it's time to settle this once and for all. Did the Nazis really use gas chambers to exterminate the Jews?
Let's try to get both sides on this.
Also, can those who claim the Nazis did not use gas chambers please refute the arguments from here: en.m.wikipedia.org
And here: rationalwiki.org
Let's see if this thread can be the ultimate red pill thread we've had in awhile, Sup Forums.
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Yes, they did. Trust me, I am German.
You gotta give me more than that, Hans.
Kike detected
>Did the Nazis really use gas chambers to exterminate the Jews?
yes but they failed
I know there is evidence to back this up, but what does the other side say?
Also my grandpa was part of the 89th infantry division that liberated Ohrdruf. So yes there is undeniable proof the camps existed. I'm wondering there are arguments that say there were no gas chambers
*wondering why
Bump
>I know there is evidence to back this up, but what does the other side say?
that theres no substantial forensic evidence or logistical papertrail to back up the eyewitness claims, that claims are grossly exaggerated, that there is no order cascade from Hitler, that 'finds' such as wansee conference minutes represent a suspicious orgy of evidence, that there was conspiracy to establish a narrative rather than facts.
RHSA had a clear papertrail establishing 'annihilation through work' (which was terribly managed). RHSA did establish 14f13 to weed out those sent to camps that could not work, and this was later developed into selective targeting of all jews.
Wasn't the conference proof of the final solution?
depends, its alleged to be either fake or superceeded by a Hitler order
see
fpp.co.uk
and also
fpp.co.uk
and
welt.de
Are there any individuals who are scholars that refute the official account of the Holocaust?
Too many soldiers in the firing squads were going insane from having to keep murdering them, so they used Zyklon-B gas.
Then they burned the bodies to ash.
As fucked up as the whole shindig was, zyklon-b was actually a really merciful way to commit mass murder. It was as painless as an exit bag.
>Robert Kempner (right) who "discovered" the Wannsee papers after the war and took them to Telford Taylor.
>It is curious that the person who "lost" the later documents (PS-4025: the Schlegelberger Memorandum) indicating that Hitler wanted to wait until after the war to launch the "Final Solution" is the same person who found the "earlier orders" for it, especially after British intelligence intercepted Hitler's orders that the Jews should be innoculated and saved for construction gangs in the Soviet Union only days before the Wannsee Conference of January 20, 1942.
>fpp.co.uk
That's what I've heard and it makes sense to me
No. "gas chambers in question locked from the inside, no the outside.
Furthermore, Zyklon-B gas comes in the form of small pellets, which release the gas and leave a nasty blue stain on the walls that cannot be washed off. There are no blue stains in said gas chambers.
Though the most suspicious pat was the rebranding of certain "death camps" to work camps as soon as they were investigated. Camps that were not investigated remained "death camps"
Pic related. I don't know what exactly happened, but what we were told happened definitely did not happen.
>zyklon-b was actually a really merciful way to commit mass murder. It was as painless as an exit bag
things to consider tho
-no extraction method to exacuate gas
-testimony is that a single 'filling' of a chamber took 24hrs to self-clear of gas
-no records of the immense shipments of coke needed to keep furnaces going
-bone crushing machines
there are legit questions about the logistical likelihood
Wouldn't zyklon B solve the logistical requirements of exterminating masses of people?
Pure coincidence !
The only reason I'm not a denier is because the best math professor I had in uni was a survivor. Old polish guy, really nice. Was in Buchenwald, then Auschwitz. Had the numbers stamped on him...absolutely traumatized by the phrase "work makes free."
He never actually talked about it, but the ptsd stayed with him.
He died from zyklon B ? youtube.com
Couldn't he have been shaken from the labor and seeing his fellow men die of starvation and disease, rather than gas?
What I'm saying is what if gas wasn't used but instead prisoners died of disease and starvation
its the uncertainty of logistical feasibility- the supply chain, trains, fuel for the furnaces, time constraints of having to let a chamber be out of action for 24hrs (Wachsmann) before it can be used again. not to mention the bureaucratic logjams where RHSA telexts to say 'we are liquidating this ghetto, be ready to receive 100,000 in 2 weeks'. there are legit questions which have never been cleared up afaik.
No he didn't die, he was my professor.
Precisely ! Typhoid . starvation..no Zyclon B .. no 6 millions jews .. no 2000 person in a shower with wooden door .. it was a Genocide but not like they want us to know .. they used it for implementation of Greater Israel . it very well reported facts.. the Rothchilds finance both side of every war since 1760 and are not shy to spill the blood of their own kin they did it before and try to do it again ..BE WARNED !
You mean the big lie
He talk about the showers ? probably not cause its a lie.. he probably traumatized by this event for many good reason but some of those reasons are LIES to control the opposition ! its 10 years of prison if you dare question the shoa in Europe .. 10 YEARS !
The Illuminated Zionist lobby make sure no one can counter their bullshit by imprisoning them .. this is a common way to eliminate concurrence ..
>10 years
>In Europe
No, it's not, you fucking moron. Also, you realize Europe is a continent made up of roughly 50 countries, all with different laws and regulations, right? So saying Europe this or Europe that really makes you sound like a fucking idiot.
2000 peoples gas behind THIS door ?! TOTAL BULLSHIT ! youtube.com
no they did not
you cannot detain and kill that amount especially at war time.they detained a smaller amount as to prevent a revolution as what happened in 1918 which troubled the outcome of the first world war.
The germans were merely trying to fight jewish influence in their country, and it was a war. a war is a war, one group fighting against another.
Because jews (see for yourself) run the media a narrative of german guilt is taught in all facets of life.
Well ok MOST of Europe ! Maybe not the Belgium African Genocidal Maniaks but the rest
en.wikipedia.org
stupid fuck you should stfu Belgium you start to play with my nerve..
How many countries have handed out sentences of 10 years in prison for Holocaust deniers?
Anyway, who the fuck are you to criticize anyone, Canada? You have reddit as prime minister for fuck's sake.
MOre then enouf FOR LIES ! you think you funny manlet ?!
YOu a fucking clown or something ?!
I criticize ONLY Genocidal maniacs ! we do not financed and Train Terrorist in Canada..to kill our own peoples in the street..
And just so you know little man..My ancestors come from Belgium this is not something I am proud of since you are the worst fucking genocidal Maniak on human history..
...
Here's another issue. If 6 million didn't die, where did the missing 6 million go? Weren't there census records documenting a massive reduction of Jews after the war?
how you keep census in 1939 ?? THINK dude THINK !
What does that even mean
Bump for more thoughts
Better question:
What were the 6 million doing during the war?
What?
I can't answer that question because of the legislation of my country
If Jews weren't being locked up and slaughtered, what were they doing?
Those camps don't hold 6 million people.
If only a few people died, and they all died at the very end of typhus or whatever, what were the millions and millions who didn't fit into the camps doing in the mean time?
see.. This is a other good reason to think its a LIE ! Prison for those who talk about the shoa. this is called subversion its a domination tactic.
So they just never existed and the census records were made up?
You must be confused about what I'm saying.
what is the difference 600 000 and 6 000 000 for a shill ?!
Is there someone out there that actually debunks David Irving? It's very hard to not believe what he says when he comes with good arguments and at the same time have the jews trying to shut him up.
It's one of the central intellectual crises of the alt-right
on one hand they want to deny the holocaust to rehabilitate the legacy of national socialism
but at the same time they'd be super happy if all those jews really did die ( which they did, btw)
Try looking up any of the court cases he lost to see a live BTFOing.
Wikipedia says Irving was found to deliberately falsify historical documents. Who's right here?
Tons flooded into America undocumented
It's how you can tell deniers aren't real historians or real scientists. They lack all objectivity.
One author put it well. He boils down the entire denier argument to "We didn't do it, but the kikes got what they deserved."
Well at least half of them were being shot by the Einsatzgruppen SS the rest walled up in Ghettos until they were given a free train ride to eastern Poland
Quite a skill to be able to have millions of people travel between two countries at war with each other and never get discovered.
I bet there are spy agencies all over the world that wish they had that ability.
I think the census records are the biggest argument for the Holocaust being an actual real event.
Who says they existed? Find me the census record that shows a missing 6,000,000 jews. That's one of the arguments *against* it, is that this supposed death toll isn't evident in any records.
Why is it not a big deal when the Auschwitz museum itself drops it's supposed death toll from 4 million to 1 million? That right there cuts the 6,000,000 figure in half. Why is 6,000,000 still being repeated? Why is it not a bigger issue when the "official numbers" are off by freaking half?
>prove the holocaust didn't happen!
>no i don't want to look at your evidence
and those last 4 digits, such a waste
they add a fucking 0 at the end of 600 000 its not a viable argument..
also i should say
>rational wiki
>rational
We should've killed more.
>please refute the arguments from here
>has to rely on garbage like wikipedia
>can't bring up his own arguments
Nope, you're a nigger
>Why is 6,000,000 still being repeated?
Because the 6 million number is a holy number among holocaust deniers, even if actual scientists don't use it. It's called "rounding" buddy.
"Argumentum ad td;dr" is a favorite tactic among deniers, because it requires no work. Just copy and paste something you found.
This is why copy paste lists like this have stuff that was debunked decades and decades ago. Who cares if you have facts wrong, if someone cant' debate 1000 bad arguments in his 2000 character limit post, then you win!
>The Gish Gallop, also known as Proof by Verbosity, is the fallacious debating tactic of drowning an opponent in such a torrent of small arguments that the opponent cannot possibly rebut each one in real time. It is similar to the on the spot fallacy.
Why don't you take a single argument, get your evidence, and articulate it.
I want to see both sides to get an idea of what to think. I don't have any arguments you're right. I'm just trying to get a picture of what you guys are talking about
Here's the thing:
This is how a Denier's brain works:
>Oh yeah, well can you answer this question? No? Then the holocaust was fake!
Here's how a historian's brain works:
>Hmm, this is an interesting question. I should conduct research and attempt to answer it.
Basically, if every time you get asked a rhetorical question by a denier, and you go look up the answer on google, you will quickly learn how full of shit they are.
>Here's how a historian's brain works:
>>Hmm, this COULD BE an interesting question. I SHOULD conduct research and attempt to answer it but it is a federal crime.
FTFY
So I'm taking it that you believe the official accounts then?
What about zyklon b supposedly being a combustible and leaving blue imprints on walls, which was not found in the gas chambers?
Well shit, dude. Color me btfo. A piece of paper with no sources, names, or references of any kind. I'm just... I mean I'm fucking floored, here.
>Also intentionally dodging the question.
If that nifty little notepad doc is right, where'd the 3,000,000 extra come from at Auschwitz? Were they added on top of the 5,100,000 and if so why'd they feel the need to add bullshit numbers? Or were they included in the 5,100,000 and if so, why is it not an even bigger deal that only 2,100,000 died?
It's not a federal crime.
It is however a lie that deniers love to propagate.
"The truth does not fear investigation" my ass, they lie more than anyone.
In many countries, including the sorry shithole I live in, Holocaust revisionism - i.e. showing other figures than the official ones - is a crime. Not federal, i concede, but a crime nonetheless. Why would serious historians bother losing their livelihood?
I've never looked into the details.
But if someone is a compulsive lier I'm going to assume almost everything they say is a lie.
Jews are the most notorious and shameless liers in the world.
>Well shit, dude. Color me btfo. A piece of paper with no sources, names, or references of any kind. I'm just... I mean I'm fucking floored, here.
Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European, Jews. 1961.
Google you stupid nigger.
It's one of many examples of the differing calculations by different historians.
>If that nifty little notepad doc is right, where'd the 3,000,000 extra come from at Auschwitz? Were they added on top of the 5,100,000 and if so why'd they feel the need to add bullshit numbers? Or were they included in the 5,100,000 and if so, why is it not an even bigger deal that only 2,100,000 died?
Well, let's google it.
Google says it was a propaganda attempt by the Soviet Union, that was quickly proven to be false by historians. Basically, only a few months after the camp was discovered, the Soviets put up a big memorial so they could look like heroes. They needed to justify the millions and millions of Russians who died. Russia's defeat of Germany is still their most important national holiday today. Actual historians never believed it. Russia refused to admit they were wrong until 1991. The four million at Auschwitz were never part of the calculations by historians.
Now you see why the Gish Gallop is a shitty tactic. In the amount of time it took me to write one thing you could have googled yourself, many posts have sprung up.
Google, nigger. Use it.
What are "The official numbers?"
Would Jacob Lestschinsky go to jail for saying it was 5.95 million?
Would Gerald Reitlinger who proved the soviets were lying back in the 50s go to jail for his estimate of 4.2 to 4.5 million?
Would Wolfgang Benz go to jail for his estimate of 5.29 million?
These are just people on wikipedia.
By all means, tell me exactly how many people is the minimum you are allowed to say before you go to jail in Canada.
(And even though you are wrong, I will point out that you are moving the goal posts to change the topic from "Studying history is illegal" to "denying the 'official numbers' is illegal." So nice debate cheating!)
Proper investigations have yet to be carried out in the supposed deathcamps, and any camp properly investigated hasn't had any toxic gas discovered in any way which would suggest it was used to kill people.
The picture posted by while childish and poorly made, is accurate. The gas chambers are all only found, conveniently, in Russian-investigated areas, and that's where we get the majority of the reports on the Nazi atrocities. The question then becomes, how much do we trust Russian wartime reports against their enemies? It's not like Soviet Russian was known for being one of the largest propaganda powerhouses in world history or anything.
Our rambling little friend likes to keep talking about rationality and objectivity, but he's yet to do much more than call names and claim everyone who disagrees with him is a raging bigot. I, personally, have nothing against Jews and I've certainly got no hardon for Nazis, but the idea that we shouldn't question something that was poorly investigated, largely unproven, and pushed by the two largest propaganda creators in the world at a time when patriotism and moral was more important than ever, is absurd.
The Nazis were bad, m'kay? But very few people in history are ever 100% evil, and it's a little too convenient for me that Nazis are made out to be the most evil group to ever walk the earth by their enemies, who are also the ones who get to write what happened.
Sorry, missed this post. Now I get to be the one who copy and pastes things. Hurrah!
This is one of the oldest denier memes, and when you see it, it's excellent evidence they can't do independent research, and never bother to google the things they read.
I don't know if you're talking about me, but I never called anyone a bigot. I did call them a stupid nigger though.
Anyway, the picture isn't correct. First, show a source on "Original claim" as deniers love to make up strawmen and other fake shit to debunk.
Second, that only shows the death camps in Poland. There were a bunch in Yugoslavia too.
The real question is:
Were the Jews legitimate targets for whatever happened or not?
Somehow it is always implied that they were not.
May I ask you what you think of the Jews, personally? So far I still believe the official account and that 6 million did die in an extermination process of some sort, but I still have animosity towards the Jews. I don't believe they should be exterminated, but they should be able to be criticized for starting things like Bolshevism.
>Google you stupid nigger.
Yes, I see now. I am truly a stupid nigger for not finding your reference from a blank white page with numbers on it and nothing else.
>Google says it was a propaganda attempt by the Soviet Union
So then why are their other numbers trustworthy? Why is anything they report trustworthy? Why haven't we investigated Auschwitz ourselves instead of making second hand estimations?
>Gish Gallop is a shitty tactic
Says the guy who posted a book with numbers I can't look up and sources I can't see. Why don't you point out where I tried to overwhelm you with information? Meanwhile I'll just try to refute numbers from a 1500 page book I don't have access to.
I don't have any feelings about "The Jews."
I have feelings about individual Jews.
I like my doctor. I dislike Netanyahu because he's a right wing war monger. I like the Jewish inventors and economists who helped make America rich. I dislike the people who made fake holocaust stories to make a profit, but no more than I hate the people who made up fake 9/11 stories to profit off of that (The number of real 9/11 victims keeps going down! It must have been fake!).
You can't blame an entire tribe (yes, Jews are a tribe, like Cherokee, think about it.) for one ideology. Especially one that they didn't even create. (Socialism existed for decades and decades before Marx wrote anything, he merely put an existing ideology to paper)
Jesus Christ, JIDF much?
>What are "The official numbers?"
I think we both know what they are
>By all means, tell me exactly how many people is the minimum you are allowed to say before you go to jail in Canada.
Funny, but I don't want to find out. Obviously so-called "hate speech" laws were not as severe as they are today. Ask ((Dr. Norman Finkelstein)) how the AIPAC and ADL treats simple inquiry.
Makes sense to me. Thanks for the info. I still think as a tribe they have evolved to a condition socially where they have been very successful at infiltrating others' systems of governance to better their own interests at the expense of others. That's just me though
>So then why are their other numbers trustworthy? Why is anything they report trustworthy? Why haven't we investigated Auschwitz ourselves instead of making second hand estimations?
Many, many people have. Look it up some time. You'll find a whole new world.
>Why don't you point out where I tried to overwhelm you with information?
Sorry, I confused you with the guy who posted the pastebin, since you replied to that post. The computer I'm on doesn't track post color.
In general they are parasites
#NotAllMuslims applies to #NotAllJews but they lie so you have to remove them all or they will abuse your trust
>I think we both know what they are
I don't. There are 20 different estimates on wikipedia. I guess 19 people are going to jail!
>Funny, but I don't want to find out. Obviously so-called "hate speech" laws were not as severe as they are today. Ask ((Dr. Norman Finkelstein)) how the AIPAC and ADL treats simple inquiry.
Let's ask Google about the laws then, since you don't appear to have access to it.
>Sections 318, 319, and 320 of the Code forbid hate propaganda.[3] "Hate propaganda" means "any writing, sign or visible representation that advocates or promotes genocide or the communication of which by any person would constitute an offence under section 319."
>Section 318 prescribes imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years for anyone who advocates genocide. The Code defines genocide as the destruction of an "identifiable group." The Code defines an "identifiable group" as "any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation."
>Section 319 prescribes penalties from a fine to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years for anyone who incites hatred against any identifiable group.
>Under section 319, an accused is not guilty: (a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true; (b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text; (c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or (d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.
Yep, sure sounds like historical research is illegal. I guess you win!
user, you seem reasonable. Try checking out Kevin B. MacDonald. He writes about Jews from a scholarly viewpoint. His stuff is very interesting.
>not an anti-Semite
Jews are a tribe because they are a religion and an ethnicity.
For instance, if a white guy goes to their local Indian reservation and says "No guys! I worship the Earth too! I follow your religion perfectly!" then no one will accept him fully as Cherokee.
Likewise, if a genetic Indian who's doesn't know his family history (he just think's he's tan) and has never been on the reservation, and turns into a hockey playing Catholic priest, no one on the reservation will take him seriously either.
Even though both people are technically "Cherokee"
Get it?
>jews dindu nuffin
Even though they didn't get gassed, they should have been
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