Did he save or ruin Star Wars?

Did he save or ruin Star Wars?

He saved it but ruined it in the process.

Prequels ruined Star Wars.

JJ just made a safe cash grab. VII didn't ruin shit because it took zero risks, which was more Disney than him.

The Force Awakens was safe, but good. Ironically, by making it good, Jar Jar has ruined Star Wars, because he's ushered in the yearly spaceshit, each entry of which will be just as safe and stale, except without his visual flair or writing style.

made things even worse

He did a real good job ripping off A New Hope but making it worse.

>except without his visual flair or writing style
thank god

>Didn't ruin anything
His movie negates everything the heroes did in the OT and their character development

he ripped the soul out of it

Leia became a general, giving up her royal title as a pretender to a planet that doesn't exist. I'm not really sure how that negates her development from the OT, its not like she realized in VI that she didn't like doing what she did.

Luke became his mentor down to his self imposed exile.

Han is didn't change I guess, but he shouldn't have. He was never the type to settle down.

The fact that Disney basically reset the universe to have an empire and a rebellion has little to do with character development. Not to mention Han has like 6 lines, Leia 2, and Luke doesn't talk at all, I'm not sure how much we can say about their development.

He ruined Trek also.

Repackaged A New Hope and Wrath of Khan.

He's a decent director, but not a writer.

not just him

>posting fake quotes to "prove" a point
He's shit, but you don't have to lie about it.

He ruined Trek, that's undeniable. He made it into a generic sci-fi action flick and didn't understand the source material.
He was a Star Wars fan and it showed.

TFA is a pile of shit that got so fking boring that i fell asleep midway through it.

>ruined Star Trek by making the third best film in the series
He made a sci-fi action film. You know what else is a a sci-fi action film? The Wrath of Khan.

Ruined it. Why the fuck would you ever praise someone for rebooting Star Wars? He rebooted AND totally rehashed it.

>He was a Star Wars fan and it showed.
then he made a star wars film and showed that he didn't understand that either

He's raping Star Wars's corpse

Luke is supposed to be the only remaining force user and a badass by Ep 6 but he loses to a incompetent child. He abandons his friends when they need him.

Leia was already involved in the rebellion well before Ep. 7. It's not like she was sitting around being a princess.

Han goes backward, their relationship goes backward and a hero of the galaxy is just a dumb smuggler again.

Not to mention they overthrew the dark Lord and won against the empire but in Ep. 7 we see the dynamic much the same. Empire is building massive military, rebels using scraps and hanging out in ruins. Even the new republic they fought for us destroyed in Ep. 7 resetting their progress.

They didn't have the balls to move the universe forward because the faggots fanbase couldn't handle something bold like a robust "Rebel" force with new shit, a Republic shown in glory, and the involvement in its rebuilding. They couldn't handle giving Luke some new Jedi academy.

>C'mon it's not the bad
>Prease understandu

He understands it. FTA feels very much like an OT movie (and I don't just mean the plot points), which is why prequel babies hate it. JJ wanted to make Star Wars so much he basically remake A New Hope.

He doesn't really understand how to write good characters, but that's something totally different.

Its not his fault, he didn't choose to ruin it, he was simply the instrument of its destruction.

His Star trek films were better star wars flicks than the force awakens

They were fine star trek is lame anyways. They were pretty good space schlock

it doesn't feel remotely like the ot, which is what's so incedible; he apes the plot almost beat-for-beat yet the film still doesn't have the right tone or atmosphere

>Not to mention they overthrew the dark Lord and won against the empire but in Ep. 7 we see the dynamic much the same. Empire is building massive military, rebels using scraps and hanging out in ruins. Even the new republic they fought for us destroyed in Ep. 7 resetting their progress.
yes, that's what I said but that doesn't negate character development.

The only character who's arch is negated is Solo. Leia in VI and VII in seven aren't dramatically different. And Leia in V and Leia in VII aren't more similar.

Luke in VI and Luke in VII are different. He became Obi Wan, his pupil killed all the new Jedi. And there's nothing to assume Luke lost to Kylo.

agree with It feels nothing like the OT

I agree with the first bit.

Trek works better on the small screen.

>Luke became his mentor
This isn't a red flag to you?
Neither. It was already dead, he just began the elaborate funeral.

The only good thing about TFA was the cinematography, even the music was a step down.

Episode 8 will determine if the writing is completely full of shit, or if they actually have a solid plan. It wouldn't excuse TFA from being terribly written either way.

>It was already dead
>there are people who unironically believe Star Wars can die
my fucking sides

>He became Obi Wan, his pupil killed all the new Jedi.
so why didn't he do something about it? he just runs away and hides on an island for 20 years; what was his plan? this is the same character who cut his jedi training short and went alone to help his friends because he had a 'feeling' they were in trouble; and the sam character who willingly surrendered himself to vader and the emperor because he believed he could redeem his father

viii has a big task in justifying what vii did to luke

saved, then gareth "no fun allowed" edwards took a giant shit on it with Shit One: a Corporate boardoom story

Beebbee 888, im a genius. No youre not, effing jew.
Why the flares in star trek?
Idioto

I said it negated both the character development and what the characters did and I provided examples

>Luke became obi wan
Source?
>Nothing to assume Luke lost to Kylo
>His pupil destroyed his Jedi training program

He could have stopped that Mary-sue shit but he didn't. The ANH remake aspect feels like it could have been forgivable if he got Rey's character right, but he didn't.

The whole movie feels like a squandered opportunity and the only half-decent characters are Finn and Kylo.

'cause tfa was a passion project, right? not the outcome of kennedy and disney canning the original screenwriter for taking too long, because they wanted a new star wars film by christmas '15

This.
If there was one thing I was really really excited for in TFA was seeing what Luke had become.

I wanted to see how powerful he had become after another 30 years of training with the force, whether by himself or with the help of Obi, Yoda and even his Father's ghost. I wanted to see him kickstart the Jedi Order again, I wanted to see him partake in some really badass fights, as the most powerful being in the galaxy.

Instead, he ran away into exile for 20 years doing absolutely nothing because some angsty 10-12 year old SOMEHOW overpowered him, and he was onscreen for 30 fucking seconds.

i know who this is and fuck dr who

also i hate him for splitting up 7 into two movies, 7 and rouge one.

>R1 is the corporate boardroom story
TFA copy and pasted ANH. It recycles xwings and tie fighters for the fans. It relies on old characters, the death star, the rebels, the empire, the same locations from the OT.

Did it need saving?

>and a badass by Ep 6
No. Stop. This isn't canon at all. He's a hillbilly kid that received 6 months worth of Jedi suicide bomber training.

Luke isn't a master. He's isn't a "knight". He's not even on the level of a padawan. His purpose was to be the loose gun that becomes Vader's undoing. Neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda ever dreamed of Luke destroying Palpatine. They settled for Vader, because they knew they couldn't properly train Luke.

>Kylo
>Decent
He's just an edgy Darth Vader if Anakin from Ep. 3 didn't get his shit kicked in by Obi Wan

Poe was the best character and he got the least screentime

>Poe was the best character
rofl. what character? disappearing for 3/4ths of the film and flying an x-wing is not 'character'

Luke bests Vader in a duel in Ep. 6. He's able to do somersaults with easy. He controls the force quite well and resists the Dark Lord of the Sith. He may not be prime Obi Wan tier but even on his own his progress was significant and in the OT setting he's quite powerful because he's the only Jedi in the Galaxy.

>He's a hillbilly kid
Then why does is he composed like a knight? You're embarrassing.

The scenes he's in, he's easily the best acted and most interesting.

That's the sad thing. The one with the least screen time has the most potential.

>"who talks first? i talk first?"
>[pretends to fly a spaceship]
brilliant acting. intriguing character

>The scenes he's in, he's easily the best acted and most interesting.
He isn't. You're just homosexual. Only a gayboy or a beaner would like him over Adam Driver/Ben Solo.

JJ Abrams isn't creative, or he doesn't choose to be. He's re-launched the two best sci-fi franchises and has managed to turn them into generic sci-fi films which don't stand out from the pack outside of the already created world.

this.

It was never going to feel like Star Wars, because George wasn't involved.

It was going to different no matter what, which is a shame.
What it did feel like to me though, it's felt exactly like Marvel in Space. It felt too much like a generic superhero movie.

Yeah pretty endearing character. Endures torture too. Probably a force sensitive pilot. He also is squad leader. That's interesting. There's potential there with him being a major character in the rebellion and a legend. Finn was good too.

Rey, while not badly acted, becomes increasingly Mary Sue as the movie progresses so she loses believability and groundedness.

Kylo sucks for previously mentioned reasons. He doesn't seem to have a reason for doing anything he does. This makes him just come off as an edgelord and Darth Vader ripoff.

Besides that, no one else is really important besides Leia, Han, and Chewey

the prequels didn't feel like star wars either

Oscar Isaac being a good charismatic actor does not mean Poe Dameron is a good "character".

Poe Dameron is a hot shot pilot who believes in the resistance and thats basically it.

Ep 1-3 didnt feel like Star Wars. George doesnt quite understand Star Wars either.

>His purpose was to be the loose gun that becomes Vader's undoing.
No it wasn't. They outright feared Luke finding out about Vader's identity and further cautioned against Luke going after him until he was in a better headspace with greater skill. They were wise, good men, but RotJ makes it clear they were wrong about Anakin. The fact Luke follows his own heart and spiritual path with fortitude is exactly what makes Luke a Jedi.

Besides, Luke was clearly hot shit by the time of RotJ. You can chalk the inconsistencies with the prequels up to presentational differences.

I don't see anything wrong with that. He's the least broken and most believable. I look forward to more of his character in the upcoming movies.

Poe isn't much of a character at all. He's just a good natured pilot.

Aside from being unstable Kylo isn't like Anakin, either.

>Endures torture
that's not characterisation
>Probably a force sensitive pilot
nice headcanon. also not characterisation
>He also is squad leader
that's not characterisation
>That's interesting
not really
>There's potential there with him being a major character in the rebellion and a legend
potential? we're talking about the movie that exists now and the character actually presented to us as is

>He doesn't seem to have a reason for doing anything he does.
Did you not pay attention to the movie? Kylo definitely has room for fleshing out, but his goals and motivations are made overwhelmingly clear.

>Luke bests Vader in a duel in Ep. 6.

Luke won by sentiment, not martial prowess. If Vader's shit was together, he'd have dealt with Luke effortlessly.

>Rey, while not badly acted

Rey was terribly acted.

Except they did.

>but his goals and motivations are made overwhelmingly clear
why did he betray luke and murder his peers at the new jedi school? we're not told
why does he hate his father? we're not told
why is he doing all this? why is he following snoke? what's his desired outcome (aka goal)? we're not told

Yea they did and yea he did

>Han is didn't change I guess

t. someone that did not pay attention to the OT

yeah, especially when the camel farted at jar-jar, and yoda whipped out a tiny lightsaber and started flipping around the room while schreeching. that took me right back to 1977

>Besides being a good pilot
He has lines that show he can be snide in the face of captors. He's shown to be committed to the rebellion enduring torture. He's shown to be friendly and outgoing when he meets Finn and asks him his name/ gives him a name. He inspires confidence by encouraging Finn they could escape and that Finn can man the turret.

I know you just want to win but saying he has no character is wrong. He gets little screen time but he dies have character. Obviously we'd get to know more if he was on longer. And I could easily do what you're doing watch: Finn has no character, he's just a defecting stormtrooper. Kylo has no character, he's just the evil baddie. Rey has no character she's just a chosen one Mary sue.

>Kylo isn't like Anakin
Literally dresses like Darth Vader. Serves under the Dark Lord. Betrayed his former friends and mentor. Kills former friends to show loyalty to Dark Lord. Impulsive like Anakin. Long hairstyle like Anakin. Force chokes subordinates. Movie even literally says he has too much of his grandfather in him.

Why is that?

"I am a Jedi Knight"

You are either mentally challenged or J.J. Abrams.

The two aren't mutually exclusive

I think he is like a robot. He takes the superfical elements of a franchise and elaborates them to trigger a nostalgia response.
When you scratch the surface, there is nothing inside.

I want to do a Voigt-Kampff test to J.J.

"he's friendly" and "he's a good guy" are shallow, basic character aspects. virtually step 1 in writing a fictional character. you might as well include "he's a male" or "he can speak." the point is not that he has no character whatsoever (which is hyperbole), it's that he's a weak and meaningless one. he's not "the best character" as you or someone else said, and to claim such is laughable

>Then why does is he
Please, calm down. He's awesome now, really.

They did what they could to increase his effectiveness against the cripple. The tumbling and agility training was part of the plan. Vader is physically incapable of doing these things. Training Luke to do fast jumps and somersaults while not being force pushed around immensely increased his odds against Vader. Despite this, Luke still sucked in Ep 5 and he did not receive any further training. So how could he beat Vader in 6?

You have to see that the way Vader fought against Luke in Ep 6 greatly differs from his Ep 5 performance. For almost the entire fight Vader maintained a receiving stance. Only when Luke was about to stop fighting, Vader added an aggressive move. Palpatine's plan and order was to provoke Luke, not kill him, so Vader acted accordingly. It's a clash of emotions, much unlike the Ep 5 fight. It's not suitable to demonstrate Luke's growth or progress as a Jedi.

The outright feared Luke learning the truth because they didn't want him to stop going against Vader. Obi-Wan outright admitted it.

>They were wise, good men
Yeah, no. They were old, desperate and out of options. The wisest of the Jedi couldn't best the Sith lord. The most battle proven Jedi failed to destroy the pupil. As you said, they were clearly wrong about Anakin. Those two, who should know a lifetime more about Anakin than the son who only met him once, were completely wrong.

Luke was hot shit, but you have to keep the perspective. He's hot shit compared to the void. There are no properly trained Jedi. Of course he looks awesome.

>The fact Luke follows his own heart and spiritual path with fortitude is exactly what makes Luke a Jedi.
This is true, but it doesn't make him a 'badass' in a sense the other poster suggests. He still barely finished a first semester of Jedi training. I'm optimistic and I think he improved as a Jedi during TFA, but he certainly wasn't doing well in RotJ.

So why the Emperor wanted Luke so much? He set up a death trap just to put him on the brink.

You are grasping at straws.

He's the new character introduced easily. And the reasons I gave you are more detailed than he's a "good" guy. I was specific. The other characters are broken san Finn who himself is a rather simple character but maybe you didn't notice that because he had more screen time?

He's insecure and resents his parents' instability and being left to Professor Skywalker's School for Gifted Youngsters. The movie paints Han as having been unable to deal with his new life and goes back to his old one as a result (lazy writing to be sure, but insofar as it affects Kylo it's obvious). Leia is painted as being a very dedicated participant in political and military matters.

He resents his family while also feeling intimidated by their accomplishments. This perfectly sets the stage for Snoke to appear and whisper in his ear about how Luke doesn't understand Darth Vader/Anakin, but with Snoke's help Ben can, and therefore be the real inheritor of that legacy. Kylo is a look at what happens when a young, insecure guy gets swallowed by an obsession with family and legacy instead of healthy individuation. It's why he wears his Darth Vader cosplay.

There are some odd problems in his backstory that I doubt VIII and IX will satisfyingly address (where the fuck did Snoke come from and how did he get in power? What the fuck was Luke doing?), but Kylo in and of himself is pretty well-established.
His role in the plot is obviously similar since TFA is a largely lazy movie with many of the same story beats, but his characterization is markedly different from both Anakin in the prequels and Vader in the OT.

...

He must be. He's prototypical of modern Hollywood and a lot of film making in general which creates products that look nice on the outside but are intellectually and emotionally hollow.

>And the reasons I gave you are more detailed than he's a "good" guy.
yes, they're elaborations. i just simplified them

i don't know why you're bringing finn up. i haven't said anything about him, and my focus of discussion is poe and the claim that he was the film's "best character"

You imply that a character knows better than the audience, who have the means to compare him to other characters from different times, and call me J.J. Abrams?

Luke's
>I am a Jedi knight.

is as valid as Vader's
>There is no conflict.

I thought the movie said Han and Leia split after their son turned. The rest of what you posted is headcannon. I can do that to any character.

You still haven't stated his role or motivation. And telling the audience to create theories doesn't a good character make.

well that makes sense and is more clear than what information tfa gave us, or lack thereof.

maybe if they had actually shown some of it, it might have been more impactful

So why the Emperor wanted the hillbilly so much, mr. Headcanon?

>were completely wrong.
Being wrong about Anakin doesn't make them bad people or unwise in general. Luke benefited a great deal from their example, but ultimately becoming a Jedi was something he had to do alone. It's why the movie goes out of its way to depict Luke doing many of the same things Obi-Wan and Vader do early on in the movie and evoke those comparisons. Luke more or less has the skills now, but he hasn't felt the heat of being morally and spiritually tested. That's what the throne room sequence is really about.

You're really skimping over how deliberately the film depicts Luke as an Obi-Wan-like figure and what the point of that is. Within the context of the OT, he's clearly supposed to be hot shit.

Yes because everyone else is broken. Except Finn which is why I bring him up. But Finn himself is a very simple character with not much to offer.

You simplifying it is you darting around being wrong. Here let me show you: Kylo is a "bad guy". Everything else is an elaboration. Btw, being strong willed and whitty have nothing to do with being a good guy

Nothing I said is more than natural inference the movie makes an effort of inspiring. Parts of what I laid out might be bent or altered a bit as we get more details in VIII and IX, but it's all surface level stuff. Most of it is explicit.

He wants to be important and make a name for himself because he's insecure and intimidated by his family legacy. He takes up being Vader 2.0 because Snoke manipulated his insecurities and writes off Vader's redemption as a mistake. It's why he cares about Darth Vader and not Anakin Skywalker. This is all in the movie.

i didn't say finn and kylo were good characters. they're unrelated to the topic of poe and his character

poe has no meaningful character. he's barely in the film, because the character was originally supposed to die, and his only purpose in the plot is to fly his ship and blow up the death star

he's friendly, he's on the good guys' team, and he flies a ship. that's all we get from poe. it's not interesting and it's not worthy of praise

How is this a question. Completely ruined with his SJW shit. He's not even a fucking fan. Watching a New Hope when he was 5 doesn't count.

At least the guys that did Rogue One looked like theyre fans of the franchise.

Tell us more about how your Mary Sue bypassed the compressor

Disney ruined it, he was the fall guy. The plot of TFA is irredeemably bad and was obviously orchestrated by Disney executives. The directing of the movie was adequate

No that's all in your head. He could actually seek power and hope to one day overthrow Snoke. He could have goals of reuniting the Galaxy under the Empire. He seemed pretty OK killing his dad and potentially used sith deception to lure him in leveraging the assumptions you laid out to make his father think he is insecure and seeks acceptance or some shit. We don't know.

You have to go back Canada.

Friendly reminder that The Empire is a white supremacist (human) organization.

>Nothing I said is more than natural inference the movie makes an effort of inspiring.
maybe, but
>he's insecure and intimidated by his family legacy
is kind of a stretch

i still don't think the motivation properly fleshed out in the film itself. and they really need to explain snoke; who he is, how he came to be in kylo's life, how he groomed kylo, etc

Just another reason to like the Empire

That's why he has black stormtroopers. Makes sense.

abrams wrote the screenplay, co-produced the film, and had virtually total creative control. he wasn't anyone's puppet

Because he had the time, the resources and the motivation to train him. Please stop being so dense.

Yeah, exactly. This point of view completely disregards the prequels. In the boundaries of the OT, he's the hot shit that reached the level of his fallen father and overcomes him.

In the viewpoint that includes the prequels, he barely managed to topple the cripple who had not the will to kill his son. Luke's cheapened perfomance isn't based on his own shortcomings, it's Vader's. Luke learned 'a lot', and it looks 'impressive'.

Until the prequels, we only had Vader to measure him. Compared to a prequel Anakin's standard, Luke hasn't learned a lot. Look how the Jedi knights and masters defended against force lightning. Luke didn't even know it existed. There was NO reason to not teach him if destroying the emperor was in the scope of Yoda's plan.

I listed a few traits already. You keep ignoring them. I said he's the best character introduced because the others are broken or even less major. That excludes Finn who isn't broken but also happens to be very simple. IMO Poe is more interesting.

>No meaningful
Yeah except for getting the star map of Luke. Being the first character we meet btw. Being the owner of BB-8 who is the new droid mascot. Challenging our new Darth Vader. Being the squad leader of the new Resistance. Being the ACE pilot, the best we've seen in any Star wars film and potentially a force sensitive pilot. He is the first character Finn meets outside the Empire and has a lasting effect on Finn giving him confidence in himself. Destroys Death Star when he notices a small opening and pulls of a death defying feat. He's got more character and meaning than you give him credit for.