>be Italy
>be the seventh bmost developed nation once (before joining EU)
>be the third EU contriubtor
>only give shit in return
Italexit when? Who's going to pull that off? Grillo has already said no (he flip flopped when the polls give remain in advantage as I suspected), Salvini maybe? Renzi (AHAHAHAAHAHAH)?
Other urls found in this thread:
strawpoll.me
youtu.be
youtube.com
twitter.com
Renzi got fucking destroyed this week, he's probably contemplating suicide as we write
What do you want in return? Compliments for having made a couple of reforms the rest of the world already made 20 years ago??
>implying we can afford to exit EU with our shit government
That would be suicide, fellow spaghettifag. We aren't prepared as a country to sustain ourselves without Europe's laws and rules. Most of them suck and fuck us in the ass, it's true, but if EU left us alone we would probably destroy ourselves from within.
We must change our politicians first. Then we can exit and flip off everyone.
maybe a bit of flexibility, because, you know, I don't want to become like Greece8and this is exactly where we're leading up to?) what does the EU give? It doesn't even protect our food anymore since it lets tunisi oil in.
Don't loose your hope user, we were gerat once, divided, returned great against all odds, destroyed, returned great again. We can do it, we have already done this in the past. We need to put our shit togheter and fight like we always do.
next ITAEXIT
Better do it fast fampai, you're already tanking faster than the UK
It's called Italeave, not Itaexit or Italexit
like we always do oon a crisis time: the markets love doing this with us, at this point I just want to exit EU, declare bankruptcy, put down Germany with us and start again. shock>slow bleed.
Renzi is already on suicide watch. PD is destroying itself. Maybe in a few years it will happen
how about qt3.14 raggi
God speed, Italia
also fuck Conte for not bringing Bonaventura to Euro
>lazy, corrupted, uneducated
Sure m8 you will do great on your own
Id fuck her desu, love shitskins :^)
A
FUCKING
MEDIKIT
>ftse
>-1.8
Its not even that bad
I admire your hope and optimism, but we aren't absolutely ready for a move like this [spoiler]just like UK wasn't[/spoiler].
We talked about this in another thread and two things could happen if Italy left EU:
>Italy finally realizes we must not bend over to shit countries like Romania and China and finally gives itself good rules, kicking gypsies and corrupted politicians out, cutting all the lifelong pensions and revenues those bastards have and using the money for health care, school system, and turism. Also closing borders and letting in only a specific number and kind of immigrants, basically flipping off EU and its stupid "muh human rights" "muh fees"
>Italy literally cannot survive without Merkel telling us what to do and sells itself to the slavs and chinese more than it's already doing, making stupid commercial pacts with them and letting even more immigrants come in because they can be used as labor. The lira isn't worth shit and our rich culture and food are soiled by our partners.
Imperium Romanum when?
You mean Italeave, right?
we already spend more than 50% of our GDP in public expenditure, having at the same a government debt at 133%. Flexibility is impossible for us.
We can't, it's impossible thanks to our constitution.
It will be a mix of the 2
We won't kick out the politicians, we'll kick out the gypsies, we'll close the borders and start murdering our own currency with a giant spiral of debt
Inflation will rise, foreign products become insanely expensive while italian products thrive
Eventually it'll be good for us overall, with the only catch being that imports will plummet and we'll probably fucking destroy the EU if we do it this year, alongside crippling a ton of foreign industries while our own grow like food, fashion and automobile industries
Yup, we could become China 2.0 and be right next to Europe
No italy, you must vote in conservative leader and push germany to go nazi again.
It's something only you can do.
>italexit
>not QUITALY
lets put it to a vote, then
>we could become China 2.0 and be right next to Europe
You guys aren't disciplined and hard-working enough to do that
so speak the soon to be caliphate. Don't understiate us.
Basically, only our products would be higher quality and with obviously less shipping fees and with much bigger local control
It'd be really great, we'd have a huge industry boom because of this, with tons of new companies opening up
If our currency loses value, industries are more inclined to open up shop here and not move to asia or eastern europe, and with our own expertise and tradition we'd be unstoppable
Corruption would obviously still be rampant, crime wouldn't disappear but in a growing economy and thriving nation they wouldn't be a serious issue
We wouldn't become sweatshop workers obviously but Italy never favored quantity, we were always a quality focused nation
USCITALIA 2017!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What has EU law done other than make laws which u have no vote in? Everyone these days believes propaganda
That sounds wrong
Italia Nostra is probably a better name
there are only two possible scenarios:
#1 you collectively decide to fuck off out of this prison of nations
#2 you reach bankruptcy and ask for an impossible bailout by the ECB, taking DB, BNP et al into insolvency, mercy killing the Euro
I see both options as viable and welcome
Wrong, the south (at this moment) isn't. North Italy is not perfect, but if we have the possibility to gain from working we'll do. I mean, our industries can work and corruption is just a political thing. If there is an employee that doesn't work they'll just kick him out
...
I cant believe that u anti-exit people have submitted 2 German rule when yur Grandparent or Great Grandparents layed down their lives 2 keep u from being ruled by Germany. U modern Italians cant say yur joining Germany again, can u?
>Italia Nostra
[Scacciapensieri intensify]
Only because the niggers aren't dumb enough to travel all the way to Europe just to end up in Italy.
You're never going to be fully ready ever (/spoiler). You have to just do it.
Yeah, no.
>bla bla bla we can't do it
Shut up you fucking mandolino. If you're chronically pessimist get help from a psychiatrist you retard.
Italy can very well do it, the only thing in its way is people like you
>slavs
The actual truth:
>elect someone who wants to leave the EU
>he leaves the EU
>turns out it was all for his personal gain
>he gets massively rich
>the country starts plummetting
>elect someone who vows to fix it radically
>turns out it was all for his personal gain
>he gets massively rich
>the country keeps plummetting
>at some point one of the politicians finds a way to make money out of promoting North African immigration
>you're overwhelmed with niggers
You have glorious potential, but your mentality would never allow anything like that.
The EU is only good for you, because checks on the sovereignty that is embodied in your POLITICIANS (not the people, your politicians don't represent them) are good. And having the massive competition that is single market means motivation.
All you have to do is go for small victories like Renzi's senate thing and keep it relatively calm. Your economy won't crash, so maybe in 30-40 years, with a generation change as well, you can actually start making massive gains.
But what's the problem, Dagos?
You basically created the EU.
You have a big say in it.
EU is funding all your fucking Italian scientific research because your politicians are too corrupted to allocate a decent amount of GDP to Education.
Europe is also the only force capable of forcing countries to comply with rules about CO2 reduction.
Europe is ALSO needed as a third party... it's basically your only chance to:
>matter internationally
>fight off Russia without having to lick the American ass
Basically, without Europe, Italy is:
>a declining aging economy
>no international relevance
>not even a regional power
>just a hub for American troops
>no chance to fight off both American interests and Putin's interests
>no chance of getting out of the corruption spiral Italy has always had
So, frankly, why the fuck would you leave?
>muh duh Europe is so hard to make it work
Well, pull up your sleeves and make it fucking work.
You don't like your politicians, don't you? Europe is a chance to fuck them from behind.
Moreover, on the plus side, Europe has a chance of:
>allowing regional autonomies
>allowing regional cultures, etc.
>but at the same time allows alll those small regions to matter internationally.
A country with 5 millions inhabitants (like Scotland) or even 10-11 millions like Belgium is irrelevant from a military point of view without a strong coalition of the willing who create a major army.
If you dissolve the EU, Europe will be pulled apart by the fight between Russia, China, America, and all the fucking Muslims.
Why the fuck would you EVER leave? Just so that you can be more and more corrupted.
>EU is funding all your fucking Italian scientific research because your politicians are too corrupted to allocate a decent amount of GDP to Education.
I remember reading this phrase word by word some days ago so i'm pretty sure i already insulted you last time
You're forgetting the fact that Italy has corrupt as fuck politicians and checks on sovereignty might turn out to not be so bad for them.
But hey, we're all caught up in BREXIT FREXIT ITEXIT FUCK YEH, so just ignore it for a while.
Italeave now!!!!!!!!!!!!
>A country with 5 millions inhabitants (like Scotland) or even 10-11 millions like Belgium is irrelevant from a military point of view without a strong coalition of the willing who create a major army.
Should have been more specific:
1. I'm aware that Italy is unified, but I also consider its macro-regions (North-West, North-East, Centre, South, etc.) to have their own individual features.
2. Italy has 65 millions inhabitants, and you must consider that similar countries like France and GB struggle to maintain hegemony all by themselves. In fact they joined the EU for the purpose of competing with super-powers
3. Considering how hard it is for such big countries to compete with super-power, you can figure out how hard it might be for Italy, especially when pulled apart by internal struggles between its regions.
So I was arguing Europe might allow for such regions to exist and thrive with relative autonomy, but without being cucked by foreign powers.
>I remember reading this phrase word by word some days ago so i'm pretty sure i already insulted you last time
EU is LITERALLY helping Italian academia and industry with intravenous feeding.
It is also protecting all your squeamish rules about how good food products must be.
Italy has absolutely no chance of avoiding becoming the new Greece if it leaves.
As far as I know, as soon as you will leave the EU, you will become an American colony... AGAIN.
Renzi's senate reform is garbage
And he's a fucking moron for suggesting it since as the recent local elections just demonstrated he'll get fucking wrecked at general elections
Actually anyone except 5 star movement will get wrecked at elections since the final showdown will have everyone who didn't make it there vote them to fuck over the opposition
Besides the economy in Italy was doing much better in the 90s than nowadays
youtu.be
The last time a major political scandal happened it literally destroyed politics in the whole country
>You're forgetting the fact that Italy has corrupt as fuck politicians and checks on sovereignty might turn out to not be so bad for them.
Man, that's exactly my point.
Other thing is many Italians know that, and are willing to join a bigger project just to get enough external checks on what Italian press (Which is not free) and Italian politics (which is corrupt) is doing.
Europe is the hope for Italians to get their mafia ways crushed once for all.
But Italians don't like because Europe is the kind of institution that says:
>if you granted funds for Education, you have to spend them on Education -- not industries
And many people don't like to be forced to comply with the plans they have signed.
Withou Europe, Italy is just another rogue state. Will be surpassed by Iran in terms of decency and economic growth in less than 50 years.
>being this much of a cuck
If love Italy so much why did you leave huh? :^)
Yeah this is the same retard from a couple days ago. Just ignore him he shows that he knows nothing
It doesn't seem like last time you got it so i will repeat it again, we pay more to the EU than what we receive, whatever imaginary contribution you think we get it's just a part of our money going back to us
The EU doesn't protect our interests on food either since they let food from everywhere in the world in
>If love Italy so much why did you leave huh? :^)
Hi Kraut. I have the kind of job that requires me to travel.
Stop trolling now.
>Basically, without Europe, Italy is:
Are all things that anyway we are NOW with the Europe.
The Italian problem is a too strong currency EURO which leads to very high level of unemployment and poverty.
...
BRING BACK THE EMPIRE MOTHERFUCKERS!
YOU NEED A NEW EMPEROR!
HAIL PIRLO! HAIL PIRLO!
Fucking this
The EU doesn't protect us, it damages us by limiting our production
For a country that focuses on production and exports, having laws dictated by bureaucrats and a strong currency is poison
>Pirlo
>not Antonio "Agghiacciande" Conde
NAPOLITANO: ITALY CAN'T ASK FOR A REFERENDUM ABOUT THE EU
>Good Goym won't out.
SALVINI SVEGLIA COGLIONAZZO
>mfw Padania leaves an creates a alpine confederation with Switzerland
I hate western civilization and hope to see you all collapse, and the Brexit really angered me. But visiting Italy, the history, aesthetic architecture, people and culture really caught my heart.
Can anybody tell me what's going on? Is there a chance for an uncuckening?
>we pay more to the EU than what we receive, whatever imaginary contribution you think we get it's just a part of our money going back to us
>The EU doesn't protect our interests on food either since they let food from everywhere in the world in
And this surplus payment is not wasted. It is your ticket to make decisions together with other countries.
What you stop spending on Europe, you will start spending on international agreements.
Or do you unironically believe that if you stop giving funds to Europe all those funds will be returned to the people?
Fuck no. If you stop spending shit on Europe, all the "unlocked" funds will go straight into the pockets of corrupt politicians, or into foreign agreements that will cuck Italy even more than usual.
(cont.)
>Renzi's senate reform is garbage
Yes, there is nothing wrong with your political system.
>If love Italy so much why did you leave huh?
Who the fuck says I'm Italian?
I'm giving you an objective point of view - the EU is good for Italy.
(cont. from )
P.S.: For those of you who don't know Italians, let me explain. Dagos and Wogs are completely disillusioned about their political system. They also love to complain and never move a finger to change things because they are just lazy Mediterranean retards. They don't fight for their rights, but they are happy to complain when such rights are taken away.
The other thing is that many keep thinking things work like 30-40 years ago. For example, suppose an average Dago needs a permit to open an activity. He will go: "muh duh, all that bureaucracy, all those taxes, etc." So he gives up even before trying. The few who actually try have it super-easy... why? Because 2016 Italy is not 1946 Italy, and things have changed. Better streamlined procedures, less bureaucracy, etc. But Italians love so much to complain they don't want to get out of their comfort zone and realize that maybe their country is getting better and better. They love the idea of being unable to make the difference because this quenches their anxiety and relieves them of their responsibilities.
If Italians leave the EU, it is not because EU doesn't work. It is actually because it *does work*, and this makes Italians unahappy because they suddenly cannot complain any more about a system that works.
I suggest Italians start reading shit about how the EU work and they will discover how fucking better it is compared to their own country.
>LET'S TAKE BACK OUR SOVEREIGNITY
So when are you kicking out the Americans from your clay?
Top kek your sovereignty died in 1943.
Italians are basically Balkan slavs with some national pride.
It is known.
>Hi Kraut. I have the kind of job that requires me to travel.
Why don't you get back to it then instead of shitposting on Sup Forums?
>Stop trolling now.
>Stop trolling now.
Yes the only problem is selfhating Italians who leave the country and talk about how they want the "best interests" for it. Like the retard in this thread. They stand in the way and are probably liberals
Cuck
>It is your ticket to make decisions together with other countries
It is our ticket to get 9% of the votes, big fucking deal
>If you stop spending shit on Europe, all the "unlocked" funds will go straight into the pockets of corrupt politicians
Nice logic, might as well stop collecting taxes, they all go to corrupt politicians anyway, let's just give some unelected old fart in Bruxelles complete control over our economy, we are too dumb to manage it ourselves anyway
Very fitting that you chose an image of a carnival mask for your post since you are a buffoon yourself
>by limiting our production
Man, sorry for the late wake up call.
But life is not all about production, you know?
You can also export services and shit.
So when are you going to fix your tourism industry, for example?
##Without Europe ##
>crappy tourist services
>who fucking cares about quality?
>who fucking cares about maintaining our cultural heritage?
>doesn't need to care because Lira is crap so people will come anyway to eat pizza and pasta at the seaside
## With Europe ##
>OMG low exchange rate will not help us any more
>tfw you realize you have to actually provide GOOD services to get cash out of tourists
>tfw you realize there are many other countries who have already surpassed you in terms of tourist intake and quality of heritage
>tfw all of your museums and historical sites are falling apart
>tfw devaluing your currency doesn't help any more
>tfw you realize you don't sit on a gold chest any more and will actually have to WORK once in your lifetime to make a living
Aw yeah. Europe makes life harder for Italians.
Would you believe that?
It forces them to WORK and be COMPETITIVE!
Isn't this horrible?
>pic related
What Italy kept doing when Lira was weak and tourists were pouring money on it.
>Yes, there is nothing wrong with your political system.
But according to Dagos on this board, leaving EU will save Italy! Could you believe that?
My sides are elsewehere.
>Why don't you get back to it then instead of shitposting on Sup Forums?
It's Friday night, Kraut.
Aw, sorry Hans. I didn't realize you Krauts work all night long.
>For example, suppose an average Dago needs a permit to open an activity. He will go: "muh duh, all that bureaucracy, all those taxes, etc." So he gives up even before trying. The few who actually try have it super-easy... why? Because 2016 Italy is not 1946 Italy, and things have changed. Better streamlined procedures, less bureaucracy, etc.
But the main complain of investors about italy IS the nightmarish and chaotic bureaucracy.
>2016
>less bureaucracy
So Europe is holding us back to make other European countries seem better?
Why would we be gimped?
Yeah, we have a fantastic tourist intake, and being free from European rule would allow us to fully utilize that
Devaluing our currency only harms OTHER COUNTRIES, because our competition is unbeatable at the low prices we could offer if we were free from the shackles
But according to your twisted mentality we'd have to work more for the same profit? You're a complete idiot if you actually believe that
>It forces them to WORK and be COMPETITIVE!
>COMPETITIVE
>protectionism forces you to be competitive
I can't deal with your stupidity...
>be italian
>"i hate italians and their way grrrrrr >:(("
>"let's be as much of an anti-italian as possible and shill for the eu that'll show them >:)"
>"yeahhh italy go against your selfinterests you are too shit yeahh eu is good for you yeah get cucked it's really good"
>get raped by a kangaroo
please no
>But the main complain of investors about italy IS the nightmarish and chaotic bureaucracy.
Still better than 20 years ago. Still better.
Believe me man, it is slowly getting better. I'm not saying it will turn upside down overnight. I am not promising you a revolution. But it IS getting better. You can notice.
Of course there are still crappy initiatives like the PEC, etc.
I'll stop arguing Europe and make a real life example:
>be me
>in Australia from Italy
>Australians complain about their bureaucracy
>I have to do a couple of things
>top kek I've done everything online in 3 hours
>top kek when all my tax returns are pre-filled. I just need to open a website and confirm
>top kek when basically I can do anything on-line
>what I cannot do on-line, I get it done over the phone
Now, I am well aware Italy is not like that.
And I am also aware that Australia is not as awesome as people think.
But, bureaucratically speaking:
> Australia > Italy [AUS superior to Italy]
However, over the past years I noticed Italy is moving towards a digitalized and streamlined system. And I believe this is not because of all the laws or the reforms or the shitty inventions of Brunetta.
It is a slow transition, I agree. But it is fucking happening. What it takes now is also for Italians to make it work (by using the tools they are given, for example) and also for Italians to elect politicians who will fund those changes. Because there are many who have the skills to make a dramatic overhaul of bureaucracy... but they don't have funds to hire good IT technicians, managers, and planners...
Problem is, the best things accomplished in Italy are done under the table by people who work extra hours just because they believe in what they are doing. Problem is: you cannot believe forever. You also need to feed your family at some point.
TL;DR =
I'm offering no solution, but at least I rejoice to see this slow change in the right direction.
In my opinion, there is nothing to *dismantle*. Things need just to be:
>used
>made easier
>funded
Change will not happen overnight, but it will slowly occur.
Competitive within the Union, you faggot.
Angela, your pic is basically a critique of you making a fool out of me because I speak the truth.
It's not constitutional man, you can't have a referendum over a international organization
Reread what have you wrote in that post and maybe you'll understand why you are an idiot.
>top kek I've done everything online in 3 hours
Unless you are a business owner that's not impressive, it takes me like 20 minutes to do my taxes
But it sure as shit isn't thanks to the EU
All these things are not happening because of them
It's happening because people who know how to use digital equipment and are tired of enormous bureaucracy are replacing the older generation
It was inevitable
Protectionism makes you competitive by default
If your currency is shit, you have no choice but to use local products and you'll attract tons of foreign attention because of your cheap exports
Right now we're gimped by an overly strong currency that doesn't fit us at all
kek
>Calling other idiots
>Making a compelling argument
Pick one.
This should explain how many problems Italians do have.
>everything in 3 hours
With everything I meant my working day. Not my tax return.
>Outaly
>Quitaly
>Italeave
You first called us whiny imbeciles then you backpedalled and admitted our bureaucracy is a complete mess who isn't near being functional.
>It's happening because people who know how to use digital equipment and are tired of enormous bureaucracy are replacing the older generation
>It was inevitable
I agree it is not happening because of Europe.
But in that post I was responding to user who said Italy's problem is bureaucracy.
So I responded:
>well, I can prove you things are changing.
Now you tell me:
>not because of Europe, but because of broader cultural changes
And I'm okay with that. In fact I said:
>I will stop arguing Europe
So what's your point anyway? My post was about the fact Italy is not as nightmarish as it used to be. Full stop.
If you agree, user agrees, and I agree... we are all cool.
>be italian
>flee to australia because selfhating
>"i hate italians and their way grrrrrr >:(("
>"let's be as much of an anti-italian as possible and shill for the eu that'll show them >:)"
>"yeahhh italy go against your selfinterests you are too shit yeahh eu is good for you yeah get cucked it's really good"
>get raped by a koala
Yeah things are improving, they'd improve more if we were free though
>If your currency is shit, you have no choice but to use local products and you'll attract tons of foreign attention because of your cheap exports
Okay, but that's China-tier competitiveness.
European Union forces you to have a Germany-tier competitiveness.
Let me explain.
>China-tier competitive = currency is crap, everything cheap as fuck; so we're gonna sell
>Germany-tier competitive = currency is kinda average; everything is expensive; BUT PEOPLE STILL BUY because of quality
So my argument here is basically that the main reasons Italians want to leave the EU is because they prefer *easy* China-tier strategies over *hard* (but solid and with long-term benefits) Germany-style strategies.
Basically those of you who want to leave Europe do so because they don't want to work their arse off. So they prefer to be the new Made in Vietnam rather than the new Made in EU.
>You first called us whiny imbeciles then you backpedalled and admitted our bureaucracy is a complete mess who isn't near being functional.
I said exactly the contrary.
I said:
>Italian bureaucracy is still hard to deal with
>BUT it is getting better
>problem is even when it gets better...
>...many Italians still refuse to believe it is getting better
>so they don't make good use of the tools they are given
>and they slow the process of betterment
I think you should take some reading comprehension classes.
>. For example, suppose an average Dago needs a permit to open an activity. He will go: "muh duh, all that bureaucracy, all those taxes, etc." So he gives up even before trying. The few who actually try have it super-easy... why? Because 2016 Italy is not 1946 Italy, and things have changed. Better streamlined procedures, less bureaucracy, etc.
>by the end of this decade only Germany is going to remain in the EU
>they'd improve more if we were free though
Would they?
Are you really really sure?
If you were finally free... would you get rid of mafia, imbecile and corrupt politicians, etc.? Is that what you are saying?
I don't fucking believe a word of that.
Some of the best things that are protecting Italian consumers come from Europe.
European Union is the only thing that is forcing Italy to respect human rights in many respect.
If it wasn't for Europe, Italian politicians would be free to exploit all the fucking loopholes of your huge legal system and cuck you to the bone. Of course they already do so.
But as soon as you get out of Europe, they will finish selling away the country.