Voluntaryism

I have yet to find an argument against the fact that taxation is theft that is not fallacious in nature. Can anyone present an adequate rebuttal that is is not laced with fallacy and/or euphemism. Common examples:

>You can leave>
If you moved into a neighborhood and the Mafia forced you to pay 'protection money', would it not really be extortion simply because the Mafia gave you the option to move away? This goes into a bigger question of who actually owns land in this country (its all government owned, you pay rent, but you call it property tax)

>It's not theft because you receive goods/services>
If a mugger robs you at gunpoint and buys you a sandwich, does that mean the original transaction wasn't a robbery? The point is, no matter what happens after the initial robbery - it cannot reverse the fact that a robbery took place.

TL;DR You can argue that taxation is necessary, but you cannot argue that taxation is not theft.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=06VzxxDTnB8
youtube.com/watch?v=fasTSY-dB-s
youtu.be/8kPyrq6SEL0
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius#Current_terrae_nullius
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

arguments don't matter breh

are you willing to get raped by a nigger in prison?

then shut your mouth when you go up against the state

they will put you in a cage at gunpoint.

The only reason we can live in relative safety and with opportunity to pursue a life other than hunting/foraging/scrounging just to survive a very dangerous environment is because of civilization and by that logic, government.

Humans lived short, harsh lives in hunter/gatherer bands until civilization emerged. Governments require funds to function, and the logical way to raise those funds that is fair to all is through taxes.

The system has its flaws, but the fact you get to shitpost on Sup Forums in the wee hours of the morning is because of government, which is funded by taxes.

no they are voluntary, duh.

>You are free to leave
Except you fucking aren't. Going /innawoods/ is illegal in most European countries.

civilization is not equal to government. government is the 'ruling body' the group of people with the supposed 'right to rule.'

it does not include everyone in society. government is a subset of society. it is made up of those agents who are employed by the state.

taxation and government 'services' are simply put involuntary trade. one party demands money, the other surrenders is or faces violence. I think people are just brainwashed into viewing government as being above morality, or giving government moral exceptions to commit theft, murder, and various other rights violations.

OP Is retarded.
>Most people on Pol are minimal goverment believers and make fun of libertarians.
>Taxes that majority of people don't agree with on Pol is welfare for lazy fucks and Obese people.

This whole bridges and cops argument is so old and can only be used for libertarian tards.

Tacit consent, based on natural law instead of positive law.

Read: John Locke

and the reason we get to bullshit on Sup Forums is because of human invention, not government. Historically we are the most innovative when we have more freedom in the market. that and during war, but it would be hard to argue we should constantly be at war due to the technological advancements

>they're fallacious because I say so

>farming communities need obama to survive
>people didn't get along together fine as farmers just doing their thing
>government didn't act parasitically to tax the poor and tamed farming population in order to satisfy imperial aims of narcissistic politicians
>america isn't the ultimate parasitic government which now exists exclusively to prosper off the backs of its workers in order to funnel money and privilege to its elite, comprised mainly of capital allocators and bankers
>this is the best way to live!

keep deluding yourself.

>"Alright bro, let it be known that if you are living anywhere on earth that I claim 'jurisdiction' over, that every 20th of the month I'm going to rape you. But don't worry, it's justified because after raping you, I will be so satisfied and full of vigor that I will be able to be your protection against rapists and other bad criminals (don't mind the multiple hour plus call to arrival times if you live in a rural environment or dangerous city kappa). Sounds like a great, mutually beneficial, social contract, right, CIVILIAN? Oh and if you don't like it, you can fuck right off to any corner of the world where some other group of rapist/rape defenders HAVEN'T claimed jurisdiction, just good luck finding it. What's that? You AREN'T willing to go live in Antarctica or Mars? Well I guess you are voluntarily agreeing to being Raped monthly after all, I'm glad you saw reason :)"

Even in the US where you can go innawoods, you still can't return to the state of nature without busybodies trying to impose their society's rules on you.
youtube.com/watch?v=06VzxxDTnB8

Government doesn't have to be a huge authoritarian bloated monster of bureaucracy and loss of rights tho.

The only thing gov should do is represent the people in foreign policy matters.
Everything else can be done better by the market.

So that could be covered generously by like a 1% vat or whatever.

>plz no steppy mr. gubment
>gubment bad

The internet fucking came into being from government funded research, you uneducated fuck.

>believe in minimal gov
>make fun of libertarians

So they make fun of themselves?

government takes your taxes and uses force to do it. But guess what. If there was no government, anyone else would do it or you would live in the jungle. Government works so well, because it's to big to coordinate to do greater harm against the whole population in a short time.

aren't libertarians FOR minimal government?

income tax means you don't own your labor
property tax means you don't own your land

if you're for minimal government, (presumably because they suck at everything they do, they cost too much, and they enforce every decision with violence) why do you think they would be better than the free market for any job? competition drives up quality, innovation, and drives down price.

Last time I checked, people don't elect their muggers or their mafia.

If people are too dumb to stop voting for people that will tax them, how are they supposed to be intelligent enough to live in a society without taxes?

>I'll just try to reason with my rapist, that'll work.

this meme triggers cuckbertarians

Where did government get the money to fund the research?

>Government works so well, because it's to big to coordinate to do greater harm against the whole population in a short time.

This is rich, coming from a german. M8, our government committed democide not even 100 years ago.

Not all essential services are profitable

>privatize police, law and order
Yea, let me pay a special force that puts you in my personal jail and then my private judge sentences you to death in my private electric chair. Good that there are no regulations on who is a judge and who is a policeman. And if there were any, who is gonna pay a police force to save your ass?

Name one

Things libertarians believe in.
Open Borders.
Privatized Military. Privatized Law Enforcement.
No taxes at all. Zero Taxes.

No they aren't making fun of themselves. I you don't know the difference between a libertarian and the modern conservative you might be retarded.

you lose op
that image you posted is just a false dilemma fallacy

imbecile

Search and rescue

>strawmen arguments
Imprisoning me violates my rights and I would just shoot your 'special force'.

>What I'm saying is that government is not a 'thing' it does not invent anything. humans invent things. government is an intangible thing that humans created to rule each other.

government is too big to do greater harm? did you miss the 20th century?

The government is the sovereign authority and acting lawfully. Theft is an illegal taking. Thus, what the government is doing is not theft.

If you disagree with what and how much the government chooses to take, you are free as a citizen of a democracy to convince your fellow citizens to vote for a candidate who will change the laws.

Related video.
youtube.com/watch?v=fasTSY-dB-s

How are all these things not minimal government?
Do you think conservatives believe in minimal government?
Are you retarded?

>Good evening sir, I searched and rescued you. That will be 299 plus tip.

Btw, the german search and rescue service runs entirely on donations and is very effective.

>"If we didn't have government what would stop us from killing and stealing and raping and pillaging and acting like barbarians?"
>t.Statistcucks

>"If we didn't believe in God, what's to stop us from killing and stealing and raping and pillaging and acting like barbarians?"
>t.Christcucks

hmmm, makes you think


the answer to both of those questions is my gun

>is unaware of classical liberal notions of property and labor

See what John Locke, Rousseau and Thomas Paine had to say about property and labor. Your notion is relatively new, introduced in the US by Rothbard and Nozick within the past 50 years.

>implying I give a fuck about what you think your "rights" are

If you go around thinking might makes right, you're gonna have a bad time

> a short time.
jews were killed because the population was behind it.
The Stasi didn't kill nearly as much people. They were backed by the USSR from the beginning. The people had no power to begin with.

whats to stop the private militaries from taxing you for protection when you have no recourse to stop them?

libertarianism is just cartel country ideology

so if the local mafia had elections and you could choose a different Don from a list of mob families, would that make it legitimate?

if 7 out of 10 people vote to enslave the other 3 is that a legitimate process?

because enough people, or certain people, vote to make evil legal, doesn't make it not evil. voting cannot make something bad into something good.

This is worth reading, also it triggers lolbertarians.

>yeah, there he is, on the mountain top with his legs broken
>what's that? His credit check failed?
>turn this helicopter around, we'll bill his next of kin for the fuel cost

>you cannot argue that taxation is not theft.
of course you can.

all you have to do is define "theft" so as not to include taxation. Like we already do.

and we're done.

Arbitration can be handled in a competing marketplace of security firms so that violence is not used unless absolutely necessary.

youtu.be/8kPyrq6SEL0

I'm sorry, I didn't know you were immune to gunshots.

Government is the biggest killer in all of history. Period.

That's what the state is doing right now, idiot.

Theft is a crime, taxation is not.
It's that simple :^)))))))))))))))))

>people would lose all sense of morality in the absence of government

Kill yourself, you're clearly a psychopath.

Or maybe the guy has insurance. Mhmmmm

this. Adam Smith Institute has a statistic called Tax Independence Day which follows at which point in the calendar year does an average employee pay off all the taxes levied upon him.

As little as 100 years ago this Tax Freedom Day would arrive in late January/ early February
for UK. Today it falls around mid July, meaning an average UK employee has to work over half a year just to pay a myriad of various taxes needed to sustain an ever expanding government spending.

One could hardly argue that people were living in barbarism or anarchy 100 years ago, so trying to justify huge taxation by saying: *hurrr if u don liek it, go live inna forest* is plain wrong

it's an example of how not to argue that taxation isn't theft.

taxation is theft and the point is that's a fact, and one can only argue that theft is necessary, but not that taxation is not theft, coercion, or extortion

It is like saying killing is always murder.

Killing in self-defense isn't murder.

It depends on the intention.

Taxes spent to reward political cronies is theft.

Hell I think redistribution of wealth is theft, but I can understand those that don't think it is.

when you say 'taxes' thats pretty broad
are you just implying all taxes are theft?
ie sales tax / payroll tax and everything?

People complaining about taxes being theft are as annoying as the one complaining about genders.
That's reality, life is a bitch, get over it or become an african dictator.

>This goes into a bigger question of who actually owns land in this country (its all government owned, you pay rent, but you call it property tax)
That's correct, in that all property rights within a nation are ultimately derived from a state's authority.
They "own" it in that sense, but you, as the land "owner", are afforded special privileges in relation to that land in relation to other citizens and to the government.

>If a mugger robs you at gunpoint and buys you a sandwich, does that mean the original transaction wasn't a robbery?
The robber tells you that if you step into his sandwhich shop, he will rob you at gunpoint and give you a sandwhich. There are no police, no state, nor any higher authority with which to make his statement illegal, nor to back him or you up.
If you have your own gun and elect to walk into his store, and defend yourself against his robery, you dispute his sovereignty over his store and what he does within it.
Congrats, you, a one-man state, have just declared war on another one-man state.

>nothing has changed in 100 years
>posted from my iphone

>so what if you get robbed every day, get over it that's just how it is

All shall contribute to the sustainment of the common spendings, planned by the legislative power they choose, executed by the Government they elect and under the empire of law that binds society as a whole.
Unless you are an anarchist and dont believe that even a

it's a lot harder to rob people when they don't think you have a legitimate right to their money and they also have guns.

...

>Argue that people aren't fit to vote for good leaders, let alone be their own leader
>be answered by a libertarian that democracy is not always legitimate
k

...

>having iPhone means we must pay 50%+ taxes

that [Innawoods] isn't yours, it's under the state's jurisdiction.
Going [innawoods] only works if [innawoods] is Terra Nullius, of which none presently exists on earth. No matter where you go, you're under some state's jurisdiction.

>taxation is theft and the point is that's a fact, and one can only argue that theft is necessary, but not that taxation is not theft, coercion, or extortion

I'm not convinced that you aren't just trolling at this point.

What is Tacit Consent?

Who is John Locke?

So many mysteries...

You are correct, taxation is theft. The arguments so far in the thread are laughably bad (e.g. the government is "lawful", therefore it's not theft... wtf?). HOWEVER, it is a necessary evil. The freeloader problem is too real.

> If you moved into a neighborhood and the Mafia forced you to pay 'protection money', would it not really be extortion simply because the Mafia gave you the option to move away? This goes into a bigger question of who actually owns land in this country (its all government owned, you pay rent, but you call it property tax)

If a person named Mafia owned all the land in the US you'd be okay with paying rent instead of taxes?

there must be a good place somewhere to disappear and build a cabin, right?

>Tacit Consent
I'm gonna rob you at gunpoint and force you to eat a sandwich. Since you enjoyed the sandwich I gave you, you gave consent to my robbery.

Great concept

in a competing marketplace of personal protection agencies work out contracts not dissimilar to a car insurance policy. If someone is committing property rights violations that cost those companies money in pay outs for damages, they are going to want compensation for those damages. seeking the culprit is a monetary incentive.

if a larger good was damaged like water supply by pollution for example, there would be even more people with legitimate reason to seek reparations, and more incentive to seek retribution from the perpetrator.

By voting for your government and using the services it provides, also by taking part in wider society, you are giving consent to taxation.

Not so hard, was it?

I didn't vote for my government and I am forced to use its services. I never gave any consent.

>there must be a good place somewhere to disappear and build a cabin, right?
Besides link related
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_nullius#Current_terrae_nullius
There are none; the best hope you have is just going so far out from civilization that the state literally doesn't care about you, and making you pay taxes would be more trouble than it's worth. Of particular importance with this plan is that you shouldn't cause trouble, as this would draw the state's attention and they'd quickly bring the hammer down.
This means no militant fascist communes, no meth labs, nothing that will make your worth more than your trouble.

>False, you are free to leave civilization anytime
That is factually incorrect to begin with. You are not legally allowed to "leave civilization," because all of the fucking land is owned by the government. Even land that you privately own isn't REALLY yours because of land taxes. If you just fuck off into the hills to live alone you'll be arrested by park rangers and probably go to jail for trespassing or hunting without a license or any number of other inane things.

>I never gave any consent.
You were born into the nation as a citizen, and have not yet withdrawn your citizenship.
Fucking deal with it, Kraut.

If you were born on the land of a sovereign private land owner your position would be no different.

using a euphemism doesn't change what it fundamentally is. does the state threaten violence if you don't pay? yes. if a person or organization uses the threat of violence to extract money from a person or business that is defined as extortion. it does not matter the organization involved. theft is theft.

taxes do not finance government spending.
This is because money does not grow on trees ... If the state enters 100 coins and then charge 50 coins, how do you finance government spending then? If the state takes back half again, 25 coins the money will ends up soon. So government spending is financed only by using deficit.
Taxes have different functions: to control inflation, promote virtuous behavior (ex. Tax cigarettes), but above all keep society together. For me it is difficult to explain because English is not my first language. Taxes are like a kind of contract between citizens and the State. The government can not force others to readily use its currency in private payments, or to hoard it in piggybanks, but government can force use of currency to meet the tax obligations that it imposes.
For this reason, neither reserves of precious metals (or foreign currencies) nor legal tender laws are necessary to ensure acceptance of the government's currency. All that is required is imposition of a tax liability to be paid in the government's currency. Taxes drive money. The government first creates a money of account (dollar), and then imposes tax obligations in that national money of account. In all modern nations, this is sufficient to ensure that many (indeed, most) debts, assets, and prices, will also be denominated in the national money of account. The government is then able to issue currency that is also denominated in the same money of account, so long as it accepts that currency in tax payment. Why would you accept the government's currency without taxes?

He's right though. There's nowhere to go. You cannot just opt out of civilization.

Yes, with your gun, or don't but complaining doesn't help.

No

By that rational environmentalist are consenting to global warming if they use electricity produced by fossil fuels.

making something legal doesn't make it moral/right

slavery was legal for christ sake

Theft is illegal, taxation is not. Boom, done.
Fiat Lux, let X be equal to 1, and let taxation be legal.

Then I guess you better form a group with like minded people, move to a chunk of land that you'd like to be free from a state's rule, and then defend your sovereign claim to that land with force against the state you're attempting to steal it from.

Oh wait, now you're a state.

Proudhon, the first anarchist, said "property is theft" over a century before Nozick and Rothbard said "taxation is theft".

You guys are into a relatively strange new breed of anti-statism.

"Do not listen to this imposter. You are lost if you forget that the fruits of the earth belong to all and the earth to no one!” - Jean-Jacques Rousseau

"The earth, in its natural uncultivated state was the common property of the human race" - Thomas Paine in Agrarian Justice

"We must therefore conclude that we are not anarchists, and that those who call us anarchists are not on firm etymological ground, and are being completely unhistorical." - Murray Rothbard in Faith and Freedom

>Subway eat fresh and freeze scumbag

Top lel

"Force made the first slaves, and their cowardice perpetuated the condition" - Rousseau

The initial act of taxation was immoral. However, since you allow it to happen, the continuation of taxation is not.

You assume that the state of nature is good or preferable to the state of civilization or man.

killing that is done in self-defense is not murder. taxes are not levied "in self-defense" they are an act of aggression. give us money or face violence.

But you can choose a country with a better deal on your theft.

Or you can attempt to create your own state that doesn't "steal" at all, and is entirely voluntary.

Good luck defending your sovereignty.

But government DOES have those exceptions. Why isn't imprisonment a kind of kidnapping? Why aren't fines seen as a form of theft?

there are two types of trade: voluntary or involuntary. taxes are involuntary trade, which means one party must trade something they don't want to trade or trade for an amount they don't agree to. forcing people to trade against their will is wrong, even if the state does it.

>you didn't get mugged because you could have just not walked down that street
>you didn't get raped because you could have just enjoyed it
>you didn't get murdered because you could have just lived in a different house the murdered hasn't cased

So what happens to those who are too poor to afford a security firm? What happens when the cost of identifying the mugger exceeds the PR/fine value? What gives Dawn Defense the right to demand payment and use coercive violence?

>>You can leave>
>If you moved into a neighborhood and the Mafia forced you to pay 'protection money', would it not really be extortion simply because the Mafia gave you the option to move away?

Yes, that's literally what would happen in a libertarian utopia

Taxes are required to keep a country running. Overtaxation because of a wasteful government giving money away is theft.

And there is nothing wrong with coercion, only whether the purpose and result of the coercion is evil or good.

> Socialism's cool up until I decide it isn't anymore

If a free market corporations use every possible way to get ahead of competition. Like bribing politicians and stuff. If there were no laws, Walmart would burn down its competition's stores. And your justice firms would kill each other. Kill them before they kill you. And the strongest would win and force a monopoly on everyone. Now we have a tyranny.

soooo, never ever try to stop injustice? what if every influential person in history had that attitude? Slavery is just the way it is - pick the cotton and deal with it.

you can go ahead and wear your chains with pride, I'm going to keep trying to show people how not to used flawed logic.

Sound like the script of that show with the nuclear submarine going rogue.

Bullshit these security firms are basically mafia and there's really no incentive for them to not force their "services" upon others. They are also free to restrict and screw over competition until there's none left and form a corporate republic.

We only have complete free market today, you have the freedom to compete and freedom to restrict the freedom of others via competition.