Minimum wage discussion

>sanders wants a $15 minimum wage
>Elizabeth warren wants a $22 minimum wage
When will the madness end? Do the Democrats and their backers realize that they will be pricing a ton of humans out of jobs because it won't be worth it to have them anymore?

Why dont we just make it a million an hour? There's obviously nothing bad that can come from it. My liberal friend told me so.

how about we abolish money. if you work, you eat.you don't, you die

>we can't survive on $8.25/hr
maybe those lazy niggers should work towards higher paying jobs instead of being stuck at McDonalds their whole lives

If we end illegal immigration and wages go up how is that different than the government raising them?

Pretty much liberal logic in a nutshell.

I like being able to get smartphones and TVs instead of just trading work for a chicken.

Reducing the number of people in a workforce means that portion of the workforce will have to adjust rather than the whole economy. If we end illegal immigration and get rid of illegal labor in areas where it is much cheaper than legal labor, those areas will have to raise the wage in order to attract proper talent. However, it will not be a mandate on the entirety of the economy in all positions to pay a certain wage. This would vastly reduce the impact, and instead let the free market work.

At this rate you should abolish money altogether

Good goy, you should stay at the same minimum wage forever

The wealth will trickle down

Income inequality is a problem and the minimum wage has not risen as quickly as in the past but the reality is that many jobs are not worth what they used to be worth, especially with automation or better products/services. Changing the minimum wage to be some arbitrarily higher number will not change that, it will increase the prices of goods and services and outprice a lot of people to not be worth employing in the first place.

Increasing amounts and the lowering price of automation create problems without a minimum wage hike, but a minimum wage hike exacerbates the issue. In the end we probably will need a real minimum alternative income, but that's an entirely different debate.

>You should work a minimum wage job
>ever

What the fuck is wrong with you faggots? Why do you think minimum wage is a "starting point"

People who make less than a living wage get the money they need to live from welfare, otherwise they'd die. No one seems to realize this or at the least talk about it.

If you gave people a living wage, they wouldn't need welfare (your tax money) to live, and it would come out of the capitalist owner's pocket.

Neither could I. Why don't you make something of yourself and stop working shitty dead-end jobs?

>minimum wage jobs are for starters

except there are more low wage jobs than there are people who are starting out in the workplace

it's a 100% guarantee that millions of adults who aren't starting out must fill these jobs

>we can't survive
>uses luxury goods like smartphones

Phones are cheap now lad

>abolish welfare except for the disabled
>hike the minimum wage
y/n

>If you gave people a living wage, they wouldn't need welfare (your tax money) to live, and it would come out of the capitalist owner's pocket.

Defining a "living wage" is difficult, but not everyone works to live. Some teenagers work minimum wage jobs to get some extra money for a video game or sunglasses or an iPhone. Some people supplement the income of their spouse.

In any event, declaring the "minimum wage" by law is not something that makes a job worth the price listed, it just raises the minimum cost of labor to fill a position, whether or not that's appropriate. There are plenty of McDonalds with people working for $8.25/hr (or more or less) depending on the area, they aren't starving for employees who say "that isn't enough". Raising the minimum wage doesn't make their labor any more productive to the business; in fact, doing so would make labor more than half of the cost of business in most markets, eradicating margin. The only solution would be to raise prices.

Even that is not the worst of it though, we already have $15 minimum wage movements getting traction. In seattle they have a $15 minimum wage starting in 2017 for the largest businesses and 2021 for the smallest. This was passed in 2015 and McDonalds immediately started installing kiosks to replace almost all of the cashiers, with a button to page an employee. Eventually loading a basket of fries and dumping it and filling a fry container, etc. will be easier for the business owner, will be cheaper to have a $30,000 robot arm flipping the burgers instead of a human that gets sick, isn't always available, etc...

It's worse than that, inflation will balloon greatly with the minimum wage leaps while subsidiaries (401k, Medicare, etc) will not which will tank the market even faster.

>Do the Democrats and their backers realize that they will be pricing a ton of humans out of jobs because it won't be worth it to have them anymore?

If the choice is between working for meager wages and not working at all, create circumstances that change that.

The big issue is wage stagnation. Theoretically companies should be paying their employees 10 dollars minimum or so.

I want 100 bucks a hour minimum wage. Vote for me

I made minimum wage for 3 months of my life before I got a job that was minimum wage plus commission. I averaged about $12 an hour. Then I moved out of my parents' house and got a better job where I got paid a solid hourly, commission, and benefits. I was making 50k per year by the time I was 20 because I worked hard and got good at what I did. That was a decade ago. Now I own a business. There is literally no reason to depend solely on minimum wage for an extended period of time as an adult.

Demanding more and virtue signaling should not be a substitute for taking your situation into your own hands through actual effort. How am I supposed to take these kids with 600 dollar smartphones seriously when all they do is look for handouts?

here
The road to hell is always paved with good intentions. Look at Obamacare's mandate that employers of more than 50 people must offer health insurance to employees that are full time. What happened? Employers cut a lot of people's hours by 20% or more so they could not rack up more than 32 hours a week, classifying them as part time, and then hired more people. The end result was reduced income opportunities and still no healthcare.

Raising the minimum wage is not the answer. And whether or not the minimum wage is raised, automation will continue to threaten the jobs of millions of americans. Driverless cars and trucks threaten truck drivers, taxi, limo, bus drivers, etc... millions of jobs. Tolling has been electronic in many areas for more than two decades, some are finally getting rid of the last manual toll collectors and going all electronic. Restaurants are replacing 5-6 servers per shift with 1 server and tablets. And this is at the EXISTING minimum wage. Doubling the minimum wage gives you twice the incentive to look to put humans out of a job ASAP.

The big issue is people pulling numbers out of their butt

Wow Bill Gates here ppl.. Parent let him live with them till Johnny got a big boy job and they sent him off in there old accord...

people who are against raising the minimum wage and indexing it to inflation should be hung

>We can't survive on 8.25

The problem is that stupid niggers like this will blow all their money regardless of how much money they have or make. Just look at all the rappers and athletes who get a lot of money, they blow it all instantly and end up with backtaxes that puts them in debt.

Having a higher salary won't matter since they don't balance their budgets. If they have money today it'll be gone tomorrow.

Higher minimum wage won't solve the problem that people live paycheck by paycheck without saving money.

lets just abolish all division of labor and return to isolated communal tribes of hunter gatherers

Doesn't change the fact that it is a luxury good. They say they are lacking money for survival, they shouldn't be buying luxury goods.

>If the choice is between working for meager wages and not working at all, create circumstances that change that.
What is your proposal for that? Even the Germans are hard at work on a manufacturing front to reduce that. I went to a factory in Western Germany this winter and saw a couple machines that had to be operated manually, the rest were all computerized and they had a couple people per shift walking around occasionally moving the bins when they filled so the parts could dump into empty bins. Fewer people were needed in QA because the machines were able to do more automated checking that the parts met quality control. This removes skilled labor from the pool. What do we have these people do instead?

The real problem is that you would have a hard time getting a law passed that you have to use humans to do a job even though they are less efficient/more costly than a machine, and if you can't do that then at a certain point it becomes cheaper to eliminate the job with a machine and then the "real minimum wage" is $0 when that person is jobless.

there simply aren't enough high paying jobs for everyone to get by. Yes it is a starting point, but some people can't get out of that point.

Did you not read my post, you faggot? I clearly said I moved out of my parents house before I was 20. I was actually 18. Would you have liked for me to move out while I was in high school?

You want to talk numbers?
Cost of living and wage increases are going in different direction. As an anecdote even my parents who make 100k + each have seen zero increase in salaries over 3 years when they should be receiving increases to compensate for costs of living where I am.

So they should have a house phone at 45$ a month? Good luck getting a job without a phone number to put down..

A smartphone is like 70 bucks. You don't need an iPhone 6.

If you can't survive then I guess you will have to die

I hate protesters like these.
Huur duur 8.25 an hour is too little

>Wearing expensive clothing
>having iphone
>living beyond our means in general

The amount of value generated by a job has nothing to do with the cost of living

Marxism would be the only solution to make sure people can feed themselves, despite these production models.

I am not memeing.

>A smartphone is like 70 bucks.
Smartphones are only that cheap when you make monthly payments to the phone provider that covers the cost of the phone. Did you think your "two year contract" deal included a $500 discount on the device?

You should research the actual costs associated with the things you pay for.

the companies that can't afford it fail and deserve to fail, sell their assets at firesale prices to their competitors who can manage it, increasing the rate of return for those who can innovate to preserve or widen the margin in such an event. every single time some reform has been introduced management and their boot lickers hail it as potentially disastrous, and it never is, because capitalism never stops

if we raise it to $15 and index it to inflation we'll literally never have to fight about this again

If cost of living goes up wages should proportionately go up if you want a stable middle class and keep people out of welfare programs.

Phones are very cheap if you get an obamaphone or even cheaper if you get an Obama's son's phone which is just like a regular phone except stolen

>we can't survive on $8.25 an hour

Then explain how I'm living comfortably on $7.25.

jesus youre a fucking imbecile.

to say nothing of this braintrust:

Some questions. Do you live alone or with others/your family? Are you on food stamps? Are you in a housing program? Where do you live?

I have a cellphone with a 35$ prepaid plan with unlimited calls, texts and two gigglebytes of data. There is no excuse.

We should just put the minimum wage at something outrageous like 25 bucks and progress automation to its logical endpoint

It's gonna happen either way

>The year 2500
>"We can't survive on $300/hr!"

Ummmm go to wal mart and get a android smart phone for 125$ you stupid bitch

Because you probably live with your parents with them providing for you and you providing for no one.

anecdotal fallacies

Work at a warehouse

Argument was cell phone are a luxury you cunt

Trac fones are dirt cheap, there's also super subsidized phones for people with low income. You can get a $25 month unlimited talk and text/2GB data full speed (throttled thereafter). You don't need a $400 smartphone to make calls or texts.

Nah, a lot of the prepaid carriers will give you a free Android phone (not a high end one) for free or less than $100, you can also buy used on eBay, Craigslist, etc. or buy a phone that is deliberately low price new at retail without contract (e.g. 2nd Gen Motorola G is $160 on amazon, and cheaper when on sale).

This economy isn't a good example of minimum wage laws because it's crippled by regulations allowing corporate power to serve its own interest rather than its employee's interests.

If you define a minimum wage as one which allows one person a semi-comfortable lifestyle where they can afford health insurance, food, some electronics, and a small house, then 20 dollars per hour is the minimum in most places. The problem is that without a minimum wage, companies can employee desperate people for less than they require to live. This is already becoming a reality for many people because the minimum wage hasn't increased with inflation.

yes, teenagers don't need the wage an adult does, but they aren't the people crying for a minimum wage increase.
A coming issue is that job costs won't be worth what it costs to employ people due to technological innovation and markets can't keep up by providing new niches.

In regards to your last point, yes, minimum wage hikes mirroring inflation and living costs are gaining traction but they won't be instantiated because corporations won't give up their absurd wealth. We will have to hit a full blown super depression or revolt before wealth is more evenly distributed.

Lol, just lol

Anyone can buy the exact same fucking cell phone I did right now and get the same plan and everything. That's hardly anecdotal

>cellphones
>luxury

nope, having 24/7 (or at least 7AM-6PM) access to contacting people / them contacting you is a necessity in the modern world, especially during job hunts

I bought a S5 for $250 and use it with a prepaid plan for $5 a month

Well, it's takes anecdotal evidence to build a consensus. And the consensus has been and always will be that minimum wage jobs are transitional positions for high school students and the elderly.

Anyone attempting to make a career out of a McJob is a fool after their own tail.

The truth hurts.

>I currently survive on $10, no benefits other than what I purchase myself
Kids are so spolied, when they see that they can't have the awesome party life with a nice house and no responsibilities that they have at home or in college (from loans) on minimum wage they flip out and scream oppression.

I sometimes feel like I would like to see a system where all employees receive an equal share of profits, but I understand that then there would be no motivation to move up in a career, to be more educated, or to work harder

>only read the title
>ITT Sup Forums becomes an economic expert

A Smartphone is a luxury.

You can buy a flip phone

Do you realize that by 2500, just because the natural inflation those "$300" probably won't worth $10 actual dollars?

>Minimum wage goes to $15 an hour
>implying I wouldn't want my wage increased accordingly above minimum
>The field my business is in isn't affected by a sudden increase in spending money for poor people
>Meanwhile our costs go up out of nowhere
>implying my business wouldn't cut costs by cutting those that aren't directly involved in sales and increasing profits
>implying this wouldn't overnight destroy the IT industry in the US in particular
>implying I wouldn't hire some hajeed to fix my printer instead of paying the current guy $14 to babysit the server and surf the internet all day and occasionally fix the printer

You are American. How do you not know to put the dollar sign before the number?

But clearly, I'm the "stupid bitch." Not the guy telling me that people who make minimum wage should go spend half of their paycheck, if that, on a luxury electronic.

Not that the people complaining tend to buy the cheaper devices anyway. No, they have to have what they perceive to be a status symbol. Most young black liberals, ala OP's pic, are not using TracFones. Go outside.

I have a small business which is currently a part time venture.

I hope to grow it year by year.

I could never afford to hire help at 15 per hour.

That means I will never officially hire anyone.

Morale of the story; McDonalds and Walmart are easy targets.

The dude with the small landscape business? He can't hire/fire some goofy high school kids for some pocket money?

No. He cannot. They must be able to raise a family of four all year round.

The fuck?

What if they cost the same?

>blacks make poor buying decisions based on cred
>not their fault

It's not madness. Just like the "truth" campaign was funded by tobacco companies, these lefties are servants of the banksters who enable the banks to control and exploit the left-wing grass roots.

>I could never afford to hire help at 15 per hour.
Then your business is poorly run and generates little profit.

You can buy a normal non-smartphone for between 5 and 20 dollars at a grocery store. They don't cost the same.

>mfw living off a 9 dollar an hour job, in a comfortable hotel room, with enough money left over for anime figures and books
>used to live in shithole socialist venezuela and legally moved to us and now living in fucking oppulence in a capitalist wonderland where there are jobs everywhere and food isn't scarce

Maybe they should just budget themselves better and not have kids.

Then why not reduce taxes, slow down immigration, reduce regulation, support small businesses etc instead of waving your magic money-materializing stick at the minimum wage and pretending to fix it?

>This economy isn't a good example of minimum wage laws because it's crippled by regulations allowing corporate power to serve its own interest rather than its employee's interests.
Corporations and businesses have to succeed in order for the employees to remain employed. If the business fails then the jobs are gone.

>If you define a minimum wage as one which allows one person a semi-comfortable lifestyle where they can afford health insurance, food, some electronics, and a small house, then 20 dollars per hour is the minimum in most places. The problem is that without a minimum wage, companies can employee desperate people for less than they require to live. This is already becoming a reality for many people because the minimum wage hasn't increased with inflation.
The problem is the minimum wage and minimum living wage are two different things. The wage at which a job exists may not be enough for one person to support themselves in a financially independent fashion in a semi-comfortable lifestyle. If you argue that you want the minimum wage to be equal to the minimum livable wage than you cause a variety of problems:

1) A number of jobs are just no longer worth offering at the increased wage because people are not willing to pay the price that is required to offer the good/service with the increased labor cost.
2) Automation becomes cheaper faster in comparison making it easier to displace these jobs entirely.
3) Inflation to the prices of goods/services devaluing savings/investments vs. cost of living, plus lack of adjustment of government benefit programs to meet pace (or increased cost of these programs to provide the benefits at the new level).
4) Anyone that was making close to the minimum wage (people in IT careers, EMS often makes ~$13 for a skilled job, etc.) is going to expect a proportional increase. At $22/hr you can make ~$45K/yr. A lot of airline pilots make less than that!

>we can't survive on $8.25/hr
I fucking WISH I was paid $8.25/hr. Lazy fucking niggers.

Surprisingly, every small company I've worked for offered better pay than larger companies.

>Be 16
>make $10/hr working for local candy company or make $5.75/hr selling shoes to idiots at the mall
>Be 18
>Make $7.25/hr in crappy retail job or make $12/hr prefabricating sheds for a local company
>Be 21
>Make $65k/yr doing 5% more work than if I worked for a larger company for half the pay.

Don't suckle the corporate teat and you'll be fine. Even if the benefits aren't comparable, pay compensation is definitely a possibility, especially if you prove yourself.

I didn't say it wasn't their fault. I'm pointing out that they do not take the cheaper option, even though it's obvious they should. The intelligent idea would be to pick up a cheap prepaid non-smartphone for 15 bucks and use it to answer calls for interviews. But nogs gonna nog.

>business is poorly run because the government forced wage prices to double regardless of cost of living issues or any other metric a person with half a brain understands

Yeah, he's the bad businessman.

If people don't put efforts into changing their shitty situation and has no attandence at improving himself, yes he is fuckihg right that he's gonna be stuck at min wage forever
And he deserves it

That's the beauty of price competition

That's right, retard.

It is, by definition, "small".

Holy fucking dog shit, I should get gilded by finding the thickest bastard on Sup Forums.

How did they survive up to this point? Is this why they murder each other over chicken and shoes?

(continued)
On point #4: This means that the wages of skilled jobs are going to have to go up as well, further driving up the costs of goods and services - negating any benefit the wage increase would have had.

>yes, teenagers don't need the wage an adult does, but they aren't the people crying for a minimum wage increase.
Mostly agreed (I know teens who have complained).
>A coming issue is that job costs won't be worth what it costs to employ people due to technological innovation and markets can't keep up by providing new niches.
This comes regardless; a minimum wage hike just increases how rapidly this occurs. Basic minimum income is going to have to become a reality with current trends, because there will be people that have no skill worth paying more than a small amount for (or at all) in society.

Technically you're not supposed to survive on min wage. Working min wage is the employer saying they'd pay you less if legal and the job is most likely non essential and a luxury service. Even if the luxury is a 2 dollar hamburger.

Fortunately if that is the only job you can work the govt generally subsidizes your life. You qualify for foodstamps housing assistance and possibly a few others. The govt has both section 8 and private sector apartments that get checks from the federal govt for basing the tenants rent on how much they make.

And if that fails there's always the private prison industry. Just commit a small crime and go to prison where you'll be clothed sheltered fed and provided with some basic health care all on the tax payers ticket. Private prisons make profits on inmates and are always happy to overfill their facilities with non violent offenders for a few years.

>crippled by regulations allowing corporate power to serve its own interest
Except that America has better wages than rest of the world dumbass.

Mexico: $3.5 per day
Ukraine: 50 Euros per month
Russia: Around 60 Euros per month
China; $1 Dollar (or even less) per day.

So how come "those corporate powers" still pay you a shit ton of money per hour?

Now that's a load of bullshit if I've ever heard one. I moved past minimum wage when I was 16 with warehouse jobs. Hell the USPS center I worked at for summers in college is perpetually understaffed with $12/hr and you are guaranteed 50+ hours per week

hotel room? Is it affordable? Is it some kind of special offer for poor brown barefoot immigrants? Can you post a pic of your feet?

Based nip speaks the truth

>Obama's son's phone
lol

Plenty of other small business can afford it because they're properly run by intelligent people who know how to get the biggest bang for your buck. 15 dollars an hour skilled laborers will work better than 10 dollars an hour highschoolers who just want weed money.

The corporations who's employee base are primarily minimum wage aren't mega wealthy. There have been a few studies and figures that show a hike in min wage without an equal hike in prices would break them.

It makes sense when you look at it. You can't sell a cheeseburger for 2 dollars or 10 nuggets for 1.50 without paying min wage to the people selling these products.

Do you go out you liberal fuckihg shit student?

I bought a $25 phone at store and it worked just fine. It's even color screen. These niggers consider $50 internet on Twitter as "living expenses"

$8.25 an hour is actually A LOT for your cheap realestate and low living prices.

quality bantz

...

You can't step in the same river twice.

Acting in the world, changes the world.
All narratives act as if they are static, but they are just narrating the state of a recursion. Whether the recursion is in equillibrium doesn't depend on the narrative, but on the world it describes.

We should have been raising the minimum wage all along. We should have had high taxes on the rich.

This has nothing to do with people or their morals or what they need, and everything to do with economic equilibrium.

But the other side of that is that the economy doesn't exist. It is a narrative of agreements of how we are going to behave. It is a tool we use to get along.

If the tool no longer works, why do you continue to use it?

Fix it, or find another tool.... Find another story. Find another agreement.

They don't understand economics. By their logic, the 1940s must have been dreadful because the minimum wage was less than $5.00 in today's money. They don't realize how few people work for minimum.

But this is all a side topic. The underlying reason wages haven't kept up with inflation is that the federal reserve has been inflating the currency at a very fast pace.

>and the job is most likely non essential
Yeah because burguers cook themselves and food are magically placed from kitchen to tables

Chinese smartphones are extremly cheap I've seen some of then as low as $40 with the same specs as a "luxury phone", but even brand smartphones (Motorola, LG, Smasung...) has some "basic smartphones" as low as $60, but instead of 4GB of RAM you have 1GB, instead of octa/quadcore, you have a dual core, and probably a 4" screen, etc....

People complaining about "expensive smatphones" ae just kiddy millenials that want the last Iphone or Galaxy Ssomething

Nah m8, I just researched and went into a cheap hotel run by two elderly folks.
Paying 470 a month with free internet and cable. Plus I live in florida where the living cost is dirt cheap. Literally saving 500 dollars a month and can probably save up enough money to get a van and buy some land in a year or two.

America is fucking beautiful, man, land of opportunity. I'm white as snow venezuelan, I don't get government benefits like cubans do. And those fuckers ruined my country. So nope, no gibsmedats, just being a responsible ass resident and working for a living and not falling for the college meme. Feels fucking eggsclent.