So my friends are of the opinion that wanting out of the EU is just based on xenophobia. Not being British or living in the UK means I don't give a fuck about how many migrants live there. But the anti democratic nature of the organization is really fucking frightening considering how powerful they could become as a super state.
Somebody post sources of valid reasons why they're undemocratic that don't mention muh immigrants at all.
gavinsblog.com/2005/05/eu-just-wont-take-no-for-an-answer/ I found this thing which damn near gave me a heart attack to think that it's not a panel out of a comic book but a real live person in control of hundreds of millions of people.
stop posting hot wheels for your stupid nazi rants.
Henry Smith
I don't get any of these memes but thanks for the bump.
Jason Thompson
>anti democratic nature of the organization
Not this shit again. Go read a book on EU law. Or go read Wikipedia, that's up to you. Just stop talking out of your ass.
Grayson Young
just look at greece, the worst rape since nanking and it's directly because the EU doesn't give a shit about its member states
William Jones
>ask country to vote on something >they vote no >tell them to vote on it again Is that how democracy works? Keep holding elections until they pick the "right" choice?
Guess I've just got brain problems.
Bentley Morales
When the fuck did the EU ask for another referendum? They said they would respect the outcome of this one and asked for the breakup with the UK to be quick and swift. Only sore losers and idiots who didn't know the implications of their vote want another one.
Christian Howard
Not on brexit.
David Price
A KEK
OH WHEELS
AHAHAHAHA
Ayden Walker
A British guy on CNN put it well. He said that the EU said they would get 100,000 immigrants but they got 300,000 and Britain just couldn't handle that, logistically. That means they have to make room in all their governmental services, education, healthcare, etc for people and they actually planned for SOME but got way more than they could reasonable even take care of.
Basically it's not that the British don't want to help, they just can't and it's unfair to ask them too.
Are you xenophobic for not wanting a hundred random strangers living in your house when you are struggling to feed yourself and your family? That's what's going on a national scale.
Aaron James
So? Pro-EU national governments chose to ignore or repeat those referendums. There is no EU bogeyman out to get us. Our governments and heads of state ARE the EU. You don't like it? Vote for UKIP. Or the Front National. All it takes is a government majority against the EU and the particular country that elected it would leave. The right of secession is granted to every member-state.
Thomas Scott
That's the thing. The national government makes the people vote again. Those heads of state are part of the commission and in all likelihood get a kickback for towing the line. The president doesn't need to be the one ignoring the people directly but the fact that the chains of the organization do so make it undemocratic. Literally ignoring the vote or demanding people vote properly is not democracy.
Christian Davis
Do you know why the proposed constitution wasn't ratified? It was due to the referendums. Jesus you Americans are dumb.
>you got that near heart attack from your burgers
Gavin Martin
Seeing all the commotion about UK's vote, I can say politicians should ignore the rabble, especially in a non-binding referendum, and do what's best for the country and not what gets Farage's limp dick hard.
Another dumb American. You act as if nothing was re-negotiated but just put to a vote again 'until they liked it'.
Sebastian Powell
This will legitimate the brexit voters to defend the vote with violence.
Kevin Moore
You elect a government because you know that there is no way the people can run the country by themselves. They are given the chance to choose the general direction it will take by way of elections, but in the end the governments will do things that may be against their will, but still in the population's best interest. Joigning the EU is (or was, before the eurocrisis and the refugee crisis) in most countries best interest. Overriding referendums is understandable when you have this in mind.
Zachary Ross
Well, you're an ignorant idiot who's afraid of something he doesn't understand; see your dumb posts about 're-voting until they like the outcome'. It's almost as if you don't know how your own country's law making process works and that you're incapable of transferring that knowledge to the EU stuff.
Nolan Baker
"We the people" You will literally never understand that government is meant to be the will of the people. Going against that is not kosher.
Joshua Torres
>having an issue with "do what's best for the country" nice one, zteve. i fully support the brexit but jesus christ, cameron and his goons were betting absolutely everything on it not happening and now theyre trying to stall article 50 as long as possible
Luke Perry
In your fantasy world perhaps, but not in reality.
Nathaniel Walker
*sigh*
Guess we better dust off the old posters and sharpen the spoons.
Third times the charm, Fritz.
Are Germans manlets? Because they don't seem to learn.
Jonathan Russell
Uhm no, if the politicians ignore the vote and dont do the brexit means that the UK is not a democracy but a dictatorship.
I hope the second gun powder plot is successful
Jonathan Gonzalez
The refugee "crisis" is not a crisis to the EU's leaders. The crisis is that people are complaining about it and wanting to leave.
The ethnic displacement of Europeans is one of the key goals of the EU. You can't separate them.
Liam Diaz
If the people vote 100% to mass suicide and the leaders ignore that vote because it's "what's best" it's a fucking dictatorship. I don't give a shit if it's what's best. Who defines best interest? Follow the will of the people. That's your job as an elected official. How long will a benevolent dictator be benevolent? Germans really never learn.
Jeremiah Martinez
the problem with jerry is that he is always an authoritarian bootlicker, even in a system where he is getting cucked thoroughly
Jordan Richardson
Americans in general have a different approach to democracy. In most of Europe we see it as representative democracy (not we the people, but we the people through our elected officials, who happen to know best). And let's be realistic here: the majority of people is not equiped to make informed and sensible decisions for the betterment of the country as a whole.
Asher Watson
It's absolutely not. I'm not xenophobic at all; I just don't want to see my country enveloped into a federal European superstate where the elected body is the weakest and least powerful.
Logan Roberts
That's not how we see democracy though. Remember, Americans have essentially British style democracy with an elected king.
Nicholas Peterson
That's what I don't get.
You speak to Germans about questioning rules and it's like your suddenly speaking a language they don't understand.
>"You mean I can have something happen to me OTHER than getting fucked in the ass?" "Yes, Fritz, that's exactly what I'm sayi "YOU LIE, ENGLISHMAN"
Samuel Morgan
This.
Germans don't understand it though because they love to be sheeple and somebody's subject because they can't even imagine what freedom of speech is.
Samuel Anderson
That's what I'm asking for solid sources on. Disregard the paid German shills.
Isaiah Foster
>paid
Evan Torres
What Sup Forums will never understand is that no one in their right mind will ever publicly admit to be against refugees. Not if they want to be respected. Because there is an established caveat that we must help those in need at every cost. And that's what Germany and the EU are doing. The problem is that what's right is not always what's necessary. Taking in refugees is right in theory, but not what we should be doing for the future social cohesian and peace of the continent. The refugee crisis is, first and foremost, a PR crisis.
Charles Ross
*enslaved
Jackson Hill
The latest one is the document leaked by the polish reporters. There have been threads about it here in Sup Forums. France and Germany deciding the future of EU behind everyone elses backs. Wasn't EU supposed to be about all EU members working together towards common goal? if so, why are Germany and France doing this without anyone else? Do they not trust their partners in the EU? We elect people to do work like this but Germany and France decide to ignore the democratic institution that is supposed to deal with these issues. Why elect representatives at all when they just end up as puppets with no real power?
Nathan Adams
Probably a more continental point of view, but americans, especially conservative americans, are anti-government in a way I've never seen or heard of in Europe.
John Foster
You already got the advice to go stop talking out yer ass and read a book instead.
You don't seem to comprehend your own democracy, yet you want to rail about the EU's processes which aren't much different.
Are you just trying to reinforce your stupidity and ignorance by collecting 'heart stopping' articles from 10 years ago?
Luke Moore
...
Kayden Flores
Why do you like the EU's dick in your mouth so much, fellowhans?
Julian Morris
I'd say first and foremost it's hundreds of thousands of real people knocking on your EU door.
Jeremiah Davis
I mainly want out because of corruption.
EU is also completely incompetent, as shown with the way they handled the Greek and immigrant crisis.
Elijah Fisher
We aren't anti government. We're anti big government. The country was founded on the idea of government for the people. We broke off from Europe because we didn't think our voices were being heard. Government programs and legislation are fine if they can avoid fucking with your every day life. Leaders are fine when they are accountable to the people. From what I've seen of EU leadership, they are none of those.
Helping those in need doesn't mean you let them into your country en masse. I'm ashamed to share a country with you fucking cucks, every time there's an election I'm reminded that everyone here is an idiot and this country will literally never get out of the gutter. Then you tax people like me more and fuck up the economy further.
Fucking die. So many good people worked to make this country and now it's left to you absolute retards to run it into the ground.
Logan Parker
Democracy, independence, sovereignty and nation.
Imagine if America were in a North American Union with Mexico and Canada but bankrolled by America, with the parliament in Puerto Rico gerrymandered so that America has the lowest per capita representation, the legislative, executive and judiciary an unelected, unaccountable, untransparent, unremoveable cabal, they want to disband your army and replace it with their own, they also want South America to accede, and free movement of peoples, but of course everyone moves to America because it's the best. Oh and they import endless millions upon millions of muslims into the middle of the cities. Does that sound like a vote winner to you?
Cameron Lewis
>EU's processes which aren't much different.
EU is completely different from USA.
Jason Myers
What, member states cannot craft proposals anymore and not have them public until they think they're presentable?
Basic idiocy abounds in these threads, it's ridiculous.
Luke Thomas
>They voted no but the result was ignored.
No, it's too early to tell.
Hunter Price
>American democracy: >vote in a congressman for your district and two senators >each state gets two senators and a proportional amount of congressmen in relation to population >vote in a president every four years Every person in this chain is accountable to the people and can be voted out easily if they do some shit you don't approve of. The only non elected officials are cabinet members and supreme court justices. But scotus only preservers interpretation of the law. They don't right it. On top of that states can and regularly do tell the federal government to fuck off on certain regulation. See marijuana and abortion.
Anthony Peterson
A few more ignored referenda than that.
Thomas Murphy
Everyone forgets the V.A.T fiasco
The EU rules dictate our VAT rates must be 15-20% When the tories wanted to lower taxes on green power the EU over ruled. We are not allowed to encourage alternative energy because of the EU
Lucas Jones
You are allowed to do that but it goes against the spirit of the European Union. If you are pro- EU you should be worried about mingling like this since it breeds distrust towards EU. Also no need for ad hominem.
Evan Walker
And how to deal with these people is a matter of public image: do we want to send them back like that meanie Hitler would ? Or do we open our arms like Mother Teresa? It's as simple as that for the masses that learn about the world from their facebook feeds.
Jayden Wood
It's time to stop the apologetics for the EU and start lurking more reddit. It's over.
Did you read my post? I didn't say we should let them in. I said letting them in was a matter of PR, the public image of countries and of the EU as a whole. It doesn't matter if it's not the right thing (and letting these people in en masse is not) as long as it LOOKS like the right thing. That's how you stay in power.
Ian Hill
Except the EU never wanted to let them in, it just happened.
Caleb King
Even your own linked article says you're talking out of your ass, so what the hell is your problem?
>Dutch vote in non binding referendum with low turnout against Ukraine deal >Dutch PM says they cannot move forward and agree with it >EU process on hold due to the Dutch rrferendum's outcome >EU waiting for Dutch to make suggestions
Somehow this is undemocratic? You people are retards who lack basic reading comprehension yet think they can talk about the EU.
It's just ridiculously annoying how you morons threaten to bring down a great achievement for Europe due to your incompetence and mental deficiencies.
Luke Hill
>That's how you stay in power. Just like how the full brunt of the media/political apparatus squeezed Britain to intimidate them into staying and yet failed entirely, right? No. You're just a cuck who licks the boots of other cucks.
>as long as it LOOKS like the right thing To whom, you little bitch? Keep gobbling up the media's bullshit that everyone wants to get fucked over by "refugees."
I sincerely hope you, and all people like you, die.
Nolan Jenkins
Well in our case it was mainly dumb Austria dumping them on us and our generous asylum laws. Apart from your PR line of reasoning there's also human rights and common decency, something racists don't seem to have in the first place.
Jayden Williams
>I sincerely hope you, and all people like you, die. That's pretty rude.
Kayden Morales
The EU is a disgusting, weak, mediocre, nation-wrecking, indefensible tyranny. What the fuck is wrong with you. Just fuck off.
John Russell
WTF, are you literally retarded? I just said I was against letting these people in. I explained why this was happening: the vast majority of people pity the migrants and the governments and the EU, wanting to keep the support of the people, obliged. It's not right, but it LOOKS right, and that's what the masses care about. Go fuck tourself and learn how to read.
Samuel Perez
It's like you're saying that not having 24/7 unfiltered access to politicians notebooks and thoughts is a no no.
Justin Garcia
>human rights and common decency, something racists don't seem to have in the first place
Agreed. Just because I am against letting them in Europe doesn't mean I want them starving to death in Turkey or drowning in the Mediterranean. There are other, more effective ways of helping them, like financing refugee camps with living conditions in the Middle East.
Ryan Smith
So tyrannical they want you to fuck off asap due to your dumb out vote. Truly evil.
*schemes*
Liam Foster
...
Zachary Smith
They only want to rush article 50 to strengthen their own negotiation position. It is truly evil.
Henry Wood
How did you escape. Get back in your oven.
Jordan Russell
Rush? Sure, and why wouldn't they? Cameron and others have talked about leaving _for years_ and made the referendum basically their election ticket. Now that they see the UK will be worse off and has to face a huge legal and negotiation clusterfuck their spineless politicians don't want to own their dumb actions and slogans. They're pathetic, unprofessional people who are holding a vast economic zone hostage for an innerpolitical heap of shit - yet again. Of course the EU is fed up with this behaviour and want to return to stability asap.
Jonathan Morgan
>Now that they see the UK will be worse off and has to face a huge legal and negotiation clusterfuck their spineless politicians don't want to own their dumb actions and slogans. They're pathetic, unprofessional people who are holding a vast economic zone hostage for an innerpolitical heap of shit - yet again. Of course the EU is fed up with this behaviour and want to return to stability asap. Swap UK with EU and you have the reality. The revolting bile you spew is proof we did the right thing.
Mason Reyes
Which is essentially what the Turkey deal's about, but don't bother telling hicks on pol. It's much comfier to repeat headlines from Breitbart than to actually reflect on reality.
Jose Jenkins
>why wouldn't they?
Because mutual economic prosperity is more important than Europhile butthurt. Luckily our politicians get that, and have already declared to back Britain.
Jayden Mitchell
>wanting out of the EU is just based on xenophobia Get new friends.
Charles Baker
Yes, the Turkey deal is good.
Too bad the EU fucked it up by turning it into a clusterfuck of dozens of interlinked sub-deals.
Carter Gonzalez
The EU doesn't even have to renegotiate anything with the UK and could default to default tariff regulations.
Face it, none of your pathetic Brexiteers want to own this pile of shit you voted for. Why else wouldn't they invoke article 50, other than being unprepared, unconvinced of it being a good thing or just plain incompetent?
Jonathan Stewart
>ficki ficki We don't want to be in the same open borders state as Turkey ahmed.
Michael Lee
>people vote for A >leaders give them B or make them vote again That's not democracy.
Austin Carter
That's why Merkel says the same, yet I can fully understand the EU top brass wanting them to fuck off already, after years of UK mimimi and special treatment while threatening to leave anyway. Then they vote and they seemingly don't have any plans for the shit they threatened for years.
Jose Thompson
Politicians don't matter anymore ahmed. The people have spoken.
>the EU isn't specifically designed to concentrate power, finance and industry in Germany
Angel Thompson
I think that they weren't prepared to leave because they really didn't think that it would happen.
I mean just look at the numbers 52 vs 48 it could have gone either way.
Anthony Wood
I heavily doubt you have an FT subscription so why do you link to that? Because a UKIP muppet did?
Brayden Morris
Also all the complete faggots complaining about the "tampon tax" last year should have voted leave. EU meant that we couldn't change which products had VAT and which didn't.
Landon Peterson
What's your point other than they're incompetent? It sounds like you're saying political parties shouldn't have programs and baseline plans because god know how the vote turns out.
Colton Moore
I voted out because I don't want to live in a federal Europe. I don't want decisions that affect me being made by people who are unelected and who aren't accountable for their actions.
Isaac Edwards
Heres how a friend of mine worded it:
28 people are chosen by the EU council. The EU council consists of heads of state. Whoever the EU Council votes for (you have no say), then goes to EU parliament to vote on (you have no say). What you have in essence is pretty much how the Pope gets elected - by buying votes.
Once those 28 people are elected, they are free to propose all the laws they want. If they wanted to, they could propose laws that ban religion, or ban lifestyle choices or literally anything they wanted. Now you obviously don't see this sort of thing, its far more subtle - its mostly little things like banning the way a certain cheese is made because it makes x country unable to compete. Its unlikely MEPs are going to go against what their countries representative has proposed, and other than that lobbyists are allowed to pay MEPs and even commissioners to vote in a certain way. This is how its worked on national government for a long time and people widely know this, however on an international scale its incredibly dangerous. Not only that! But if a bill is blocked by parliament, the commission can just keep sending it down! Again and again until it passes.
But forget even that for second. This is a system where "influence" is a big deal. Why do you think that is? Its because going against that influence has serious repercussions. You end up living in a system where the laws in your country are decided upon by others for their own benefit. The only way the EU could ever work, is by literally enslaving poorer countries, which is what we've already seen happen. To make it a bit clearer: EU Council = Heads of State EU Commission = 28 people chosen by Heads of State EU Parliament = Like 700 people voted for by local governments (UK has 8 representatives i think)
Noah Watson
Tell them to ask the EU these questions. They will get rekt.
>How much power do you have? >Where did you get this power? >Who are you accountable to? >How do we kick you out?
The truth is, you can't actually give an answer to these questions.
Hunter Morgan
If our out vote is so dumb, why is half of Europe now wanting out? Also, why is the EU so scared of other countries leaving? Surely if the vote was dumb, no other country will want to run the risk of leaving the union.
Dominic Jenkins
Your friend is completely wrong.
The EU commission isn't elected at all. No voting goes on. They are picked through backroom negotiations.
Also the council is made up of heads of government (ie: prime ministers), not heads of state (Kings and Queens).
Angel Robinson
And? It has to be agreed upon by all states if you want to fly a 0% VAT. It wasn't 'the EU's fault. Plus, all member states agree on the VAT issue, especially in regards to hygiene products. It's a discussion which pops up every now and then in Germany, like why a VAT for horse stuff is lower than for basic necessities.
Benjamin Hughes
Being incompetent is the problem, you are right.
The government like the people is so split that they can only make compromises.
Like not cutting immigration. I myself hope that they don't compromise on leaving the EU.
Nolan Anderson
Over here VAT on rabbit food is lower than VAT on guinea pig food.
But the EU has nothing to do with that, we're just silly like that.
Grayson Howard
The head of state holds the ultimate position of sovereignty. In the UK, sovereignty is held by parliament.
Bentley Adams
A gaggle of loud mouthed populists equates to 14 member states 'wanting out' in your world? No wonder you prop up that 'I voted out' in front of you as if it was a good thing.
Why would the EU want to lose any of its members? It's like asking why the _United_ Kingdom wouldn't want to lose a member state.
