Could the Valar have imposed limitations on Sauron's power like they did with the Istari? The Wizards could only guide and not directly interfere in Middle Earth's conflicts and Sauman's power clearly fades when he breaks this rule until at the end he's a low-level bandid and is killed by a weak as fuck human. The Valar obviously cared a little about the struggle of Middle Earth or they wouldn't have sent the Istari in the first place. Why not impose similar limitations on Sauron and have the whole thing over with before it began?
Also, since power is such an abstract concept in LOTR, could any of the Valar necessarily defeat Sauron if they wanted to? 'Power' seems to refer to power of mind, will or creation as well as raw combative power and less powerful beings defeat more powerful ones all the time, e.g. Feanor soloing like 9 Balrogs. Since Sauron is one of the most powerful Maiar, if not the most powerful, and he's specced all the way to combat, it doesn't seem clear at all that a Valar like Yvanna or Nessa could defeat him, or even one like Irmo Lórien. Tulkas probably could, but the others?
>could any of the Valar necessarily defeat Sauron if they wanted to Yes. The Valar are so far above the Maiar it's not even a contest.
Caleb Moore
Wasn't there sort of an arbitrary line between the Valar and Maiar? They were all Ainur and Eru picked the most powerful ones and made them a class of their own. Is there ever really a power gap mentioned between the weakest Valar and strongest Maiar?
Eli Price
I'll admit I'm checking the Tolkien Gateway for this, as I don't remember all the details well enough. >The Ainur were spirits that were brought into being by Ilúvatar's thought, and He may therefore be considered their father. However, some of the Ainur were siblings "in the thought of Ilúvatar". Each was granted insight into a specific part of Ilúvatar's thought, and was therefore more aligned in spirit with that part. >After singing the Ainulindalë, the fourteen Ainur who witnessed the Vision of Ilúvatar and came to shape Arda were the Valar. By chosing to enter Eä after its creation, rather than remaining in Ilúvatar's Timeless Halls, the Valar agreed to be bound to it until the end. It seems they were always simply of a higher order. The Valar and the Maiar are like rulers and their people in the spiritual hierarchy of the world.
Ryder Ortiz
>s and Sauman's power clearly fades when he breaks this rule until at the end he's a low-level bandid Saruman's power fades because Gandalf takes it from him.
Grayson Green
>Could the Valar have imposed limitations on Sauron's power like they did with the Istari?
They could, but Sauron was significantly better at avoiding their attention until after War of the Wrath in comparison to his master.
>Why not impose similar limitations on Sauron and have the whole thing over with before it began?
This operates under the assumption the Valar are a lot smarter than they demonstrate repeatedly. Sauron escaped the first time Morgoth rebelled because the Valar were busy trying to bring Big Brother Melkor back into the fold. Sauron escaped a second time because the Valar were too fuck-ass mad to bother with anyone other than Morgoth (and the entirety of Beleriand, at that). The third time, he escaped because the Valar realized what direct intervention meant (the sinking of half a continent into the ocean), despite the fact that God Himself had to reshape the planet to stop Sauron from fucking up the divine order of things. These are not particularly attentive or responsible beings when it comes to hunting down their own and minimizing collateral damage.
>Sauron is one of the most powerful Maiar, if not the most powerful, and he's specced all the way to combat, it doesn't seem clear at all that a Valar like Yvanna or Nessa could defeat him, or even one like Irmo Lórien. Tulkas probably could, but the others
Yes, just about any of the Valar could probably wipe the floor with him at any stage post-War of Wrath. The question is, could Middle-earth survive the ordeal without going the way of Beleriand, and would the Valar consider that a victory?
Caleb Brown
Honestly, the Valar are depicted as so goddamn incompetent you can of understand Melkor and Sauron's lack of respect for them and their designs on Arda.
Andrew Stewart
Is it ever stated what percentage of the Ainur decided to stay with Eru?
Nolan Sanders
Why is Manwe a manlet? Isn't he the greatest of the valar?
Samuel Nguyen
Greatest in authority, not strength.
Cameron Williams
It's practically the same thing in Tolkien's world, far as spirits go.
Matthew Brown
Well, I mean narrowly physical strength. It's clear that Melkor is "stronger" than Manwe, and Tulkas is "stronger" than Melkor in the purely physical sense, so Manwe isn't, agaiin the physical sense, the, "strongest" of the Valar.
Isaiah Mitchell
Yeah, I guess you're right. I think their physical manifestations reveal a lot about the nature of their being.
Matthew Perry
This valar shit is the lotr equivalent to star wars expanded universe autism, prove me wrong
Josiah White
isn't ungoliant a maiar? she still managed to kick morgoth, the most powerful valar's ass
Grayson Martinez
I don't think we ever learn exactly what she is, iirc she's like the nameless things, and exists outside whatever part of the mythology was written down.
Thomas Rodriguez
It's unclear what she is.
Dylan Butler
Nope. "She" is entirely unexplained, aside from the fact that "she" is neither a Vala nor Maia.
Hunter Roberts
Will we ever see a film of Sauron in sneaky mode?
Parker Perry
Valar &co came earlier than lotr.
If you want to stretch things you could say that the hobbit and lotr are fanfictions to the silmarillion.
Jaxson Peterson
It could be amazing in the right hands, but, knowing Hollywood - it's not going to happen, and thank God, because they'd ruin it. If they can't handle a story as simple as the Hobbit, I don't believe for a moment they can touch the Silmarillion. Thankfully, Chris isn't letting go of the rights and I hope his children don't either.
Adam Stewart
That everything about the universe was created by the original author? Not dribbling morons piggybacking off every tiny sliver of detail mentioned in 3 films to squeeze money out of fanboys.
Zachary Jenkins
I always wondered, if a good Akallabêth adaptation could be made, who the point of view character should be, Sauron, Ar-Pharazon, someone else?
Logan Powell
There doesn't necessarily need to be a point-of-view character in a story like this, I think. We can just observe the events as history unfolds, perhaps with some narration. Or, there could be an Oh, see donut steel Numenorean character, a soldier or something, who sees the empire crumble before his eyes and is powerless to stop it - all he can do is observe, much as the viewer - maybe he tries to struggle at first, but eventually understands how hopeless it is. Maybe there's a short encounter with Sauron himself at some point, where our character realizes what an adversary he's up against - he probably trembles in shock, much as Pippin does before the Witch King in Minas-Tirith(or was it Merry, balls). Of course, there's no good ending. The last we see of him might be among countless other soldiers, on one of the ships of a mighty armada heading for Aman, with tears running down his face as they face their doom and the breaking of the world. Eh, now I really want to see it. It could be a spectacular story, both visually and otherwise. Just imagine this shot, Sauron standing in defiance of the gods..
Henry Morris
You're right but you're wrong if you think it's bad
Jonathan Jackson
See these: But we know you're just shitposting, so here's another reply to give you the fee-fees you crave.
Nathan Turner
>Sauron standing in defiance of the gods..
Or when he "defies" the Valar's lightning.
Gavin Hernandez
Yes, that's what I'm referring to and the picture illustrates.
Sebastian Howard
Sell me on the simillarion book
Robert Morris
That's when the Numenorians start worshiping him, not just Melkor, as a God, is it not?
Elijah Ramirez
If you read it, girls will want to hug you
Jace Rodriguez
It's interesting if you're curious about the world of the LotR.
Joseph Butler
Sauron only demands worship of himself in the Third Age.
Evan Gomez
>>/lit/
And also there weren't more than seven balrogs.
Kayden Thompson
It's a fan art, no one knows how big they are
Ayden Lewis
Their forms are fluid, so it may well vary.
Chase Foster
Love me some LOTR Lore threads. So comfy
Benjamin Green
...
Christopher Cooper
about how big was ancalagon?
Sebastian Wilson
He also looks like a girl
Jeremiah Richardson
He had a height of over 9000 leagues.
Cooper Morales
...
Ayden Sullivan
Sauron is not competed in direct battle. He even got mauled by a big doggo
Zachary Sullivan
One of the hunting dogs of the Vala Orome.
Mason Garcia
I didn't realize CIA and Bane were taller than mountains.
Gabriel Mitchell
The movie doesn't clearly show their scale, but it's true.
Connor Kelly
>Fight between the greatest hero of mankind and the largest being to ever live. >Only consists of 2 sentences.
Leo Jenkins
Why is Manwë a crossdresser?
Eli Reed
>that sword is this monster hunter?
Kayden Wood
Well unexplained except for where she came from, that being outer space, basically.
Michael Price
Yeah, like everybody. There really isn't anywhere else to come from. That doesn't exactly explain anything, though.
Blake Lee
Ungoliant is one of the Primeval creatures created when God and Morgoth had their argument before the world began, not a maia, not a vala, something created without anyones clear intent and before the maia descended to the world.
that's why no one knows what exactly she is.
Eli Kelly
it will remove any sort of tension or threat a villain like Sauron could conjure up in the Tolkien universe for you.
once you learn that Sauron was defeated and fucked by a Dog at the height of his might, nothing will ever be the same.
Brayden Collins
Except all this lore shit was written before LOTR.
Easton Evans
>Dog
This meme is so tiresome, he was fucked by a giant, super hound of the Valar, with the help of a prophecy.
Gabriel Murphy
The whole ordeal with Frodo and the ring is mentioned briefly in The Silmarillion, like a small ocurrence in a bible type book.
I think it's fair to say Tolkien kept a convenient inconsistency with the power levels of his characters, In the Silmarillion an elf has a duel with Melkor, and while he does lose Melkor is simply the strongest of the Valar, this could be excused as Melkor wanting to prove himself in a fair duel and that maybe Fingolfin was an OP elf because it was the early ages or whatever.
Then there's Beren and Luthien, the human and elf couple paralleled with Aragorn and Arwen, single handedly beat the shit out of Sauron when he still had a physical body.
It's all about vague categories of the Tolkien's lore, Gandalf is technically a Maia, which would put him in the same category as Sauron, but he's one of the Istari, a lower Maia.
Fun fact, Gandalf original name is Olorin, which in my language means sounds kinda like "Stinky".
Owen Baker
>that pic
TELERI FUCKIN SHITS
Easton Rodriguez
doesn't change the fact that he took the knot
Matthew Torres
Tulkas was the strongest Valar
Jordan Hall
fuck off you spanish shit there's only place for one, maybe two tripfags in lotr threads and you're certainly not on the list
Jace Clark
Tulkas was made specifically to punch Melkor, it was basically like Lluvatar patching an OP character.
But Melkor was the most intelligent, Manwe was chosen as the leader but if Melkor hadn't become corrupted he'd have been the ruler instead.
Tulkas was basically a god of war, but I don't recall him being creative and intelligent like the other Vala.
Aaron Torres
Tulkas = mike Tyson
Melkor = Obama
Tyson is a whole lot stronger than obama but Obama is more powerful
William Jenkins
So why did Eru let Melkor descend into Arda if he knew beforehand how much shit he would fuck up? Why was Melkor created so flawed in the first place? Was it all a part of Eru's plan? Did Melkor even have free will? Does anyone have free will in Tolkien lore?
Charles Campbell
It is confusing that so often supposedly benevolent deities are depicted as not particularly benevolent.
Christopher Ross
It doesn't take a genius to know Lluvatar and Melkor are a parallel of Jehovah and Lucifer, it's pointless to search an explanation from God's actions in either story.
Andrew King
...
Wyatt Sanders
Besides the explanations for Ungoliant, at that point Morgoth was less powerful and she was ubercharged by eating Elvish Infinity Stones or something.
Oliver Lee
I thought Melkor was the strongest Valar.
Am I retarded?
Samuel Allen
>Tulkas was made specifically to punch Melkor Not how it works, mate
Ainur are extensions of Eru, manifestations of his thoughts None of them were "created" with any specific role other than to make music in their own image whatever it might be
Eli Jackson
But then why was Tulkas released afterwards? And his specific function seemed to be keeping Melkor at bay.
If Lluvatar had already established a function for future Vala and Maia in his song that'd imply everything was already established, including Melkor's corruption. But then there were events like Aulë creating the dwarfs, which caught Lluvatar by surprise and pissed him off.
Andrew Brooks
He might have been the conductor of the song, but the instruments were what they were regardless and when they came into being came they to a life of their own, autonomous at least on the surface, but supposedly still acting in a grand universal harmonic interplay Tulkas was the manifestation of physical strength and fighting and whatever When Melkor needed to be fought he just fit the role And Iluvatar's infallibility came into question right from the first time Melkor started throwing spanners in the works, iirc it was portrayed as Iluvatar first being annoyed and then coming to the realization that it's all fated to happen and as the ainur are a part of him it's his own subconscious intent or something like that So I guess in that sense you would be right But also if everything was predetermined to the T, then there really wouldn't be any point to anything Eru does, I figured it was more like first he's alone, then he brings about beings into existence that are emanations and extensions of his own persona then figures he will create a world where other beings even more removed from himself will interact almost independently of him and he'll just watch because it will be interesting
Of course knowing that Tolkien was a big believer in God I think my interpretation might be wrong af
I don't even anymore
Carter Price
He's not counted as Vala.
Angel Sanchez
It's Iluvatar [aJ], you fucking cunt. Not Lluvatar.
Jose Baker
A predetermined plan could also be a way to understand our own world, without even a godly creature being able to change the course of time, that doesn't make the story less enjoyable, I actually prefer a flawed creator to one that's supposed to be an omnipotent and omniscient definition of "goodness".
I always have trouble remembering that.
Ian Roberts
Why didn't he include invading Mordor as part of the deal?
Brayden Taylor
"lol let's use a ghost army easily corruptible as they were the plebs of middle earth against ME's literal satan's boy toy"
Brayden Hall
Why didn't she kick sauron's ass when she easily could have?
Eli Martin
Could she have easily kicked his ass?
Andrew Jenkins
No
Ian Sullivan
If it ever happens Jon Peters needs to be producer. Nobody likes giant fucking spiders like he does.
Kayden Campbell
She litteraly was attacked while uncounscious and kicked his ass in 30 seconds.
Seriously, fuck off to Reddit if you want people to recognize you by username.
Daniel Phillips
They won't have a choice. 40 years time the Simarillion et al all become public domain in Bongistan. The only way they can avoid this is by writing new material for the setting.
This is in place specifically so people can't hold shit to ransom indefinitely.
Xavier Lee
Not the point
Christopher Jenkins
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE
Christian Perry
>People literally defend tripfags on Sup Forums now Further and further away
