NATO

why isn't your country a NATO member yet? are there any political parties that are openly pro-NATO? if so why are you not a supporter of that party?

NATO membership is basically a guarantee of safety and protection from ANY foreign invasion. no one would dare to attack a NATO member state. if your country is not a part of NATO it still has to spend money on defense anyway. so what's the difference? just contribute to common NATO budget and you basically don't have to worry about anything anymore

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also NATO is more than just a military organisation, it also helps countries to establish diplomatic relations between its members and might serve as a basis for any other kinds of agreements and unions

i honestly fail to see why would you be against your country joining NATO

bump

>live in the Netherlands and have no enemies
>now we have to fight muslims and russians to protect some guys we have no relationship with and probably hate us, like Poles or Turks

But the Netherlands is very pro nato.

We were neutral in WW2 and still got invaded. Which is why we stopped being neutral.

Not in the Atlantic Ocean

>why isn't your country a NATO member yet?
South Hemisphere.
Also, there is not a single country in earth that threat us. Even in some fuckup nuclear war, Brazil will be spared, because we never dindu nuffing wrong.

Seriously, there is not a single country on earth that hate us.

How comes you as a Russian like NATO? I mean, it's a military alliance to oppose/contain Russia

>how

>oppose/contain Russia
USSR.

Is in NATO > NATO watches and dont do shit.

USSR doesn't exist anymore. NATO does

because i hate criminal totalitarian shitholes. just because i was born in one does not mean i have to like it. russia is a threat to the whole civilised world and a hell for majority of people living here.
so you should do anything to protect your country from a possibility of a russian attack or invasion (not only russian of course but from other aggressors as well like iran or north korea), and NATO suits for it perfectly. russia is a threat for democracy around the world and for world stability, russia should be contained or better destroyed

Yes.
Now days NATO serves only to the interest of some people that make trucks of cash selling weapons and ammo.

found a pootinshill

>as a Russian

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Russia has operated on the basis of restoring USSR since Putin, so NATO's existence is completely justified. If you knew anything about Eastern European politics and the effort Russia puts in to militarily intimidate, sabotage and blackmail its neighbors you would know this. This happened in Baltics pre-NATO. We had big ass Iskander missiles placed right next to our border when all we had was AK4 assault rifles and a few trucks.

But you don't know this because you have a big ass buffer now between Germany and Russia and all you can get is online propaganda muh Russia dindu nuffin. Even non-NATO countries know this.

It is true that Russia suffers from a lot of corruption, but I wouldn't agree that Russia is a threat to civilized world.
At least here in Germany, people don't feel thretend by Russia, and despite the sanctions, we still have good economic relations. Also, Europe is sort of dependant on Russian natural gas

>NATO be good bois, we dindu nuffin

You are the threat to us

thanks Ivan. glad to know that even though you left this shithole as fast as you could you still believe in what you just said

I understand your point. After all, you suffered a long period of Russian occupation, and from your perspective, the current state might be only a brief interlude before the next Russian annexation.
But I would argue that Russian hostilities towards Baltics (cyberwarefare and stuff) are a result of Russia feeling threatend by NATO beeing so close to their borders. As you probably know, Finland, who isn't part of NATO, has much better relations with Russia than your own country

It's not only about NATO, you do the same to Sweden and Finland, who have far more powerful armies than any of the EE NATO states with a few American companies as tripwires to deter invasion. You did it to us after Putin and pre-NATO. And the only sovereign countries you dared to attack were outside of NATO.

>pootinshill
It's supposed to be some sort of foreign pro Putin?
Nah, m8. My loyalty stays with my country.

I just point out that NATO is more a global weapon standard now days. They really don't serves anything else.

Sure Russia has an Authoritarian government, but i don't think it's look like URSS.
Also, I don't think the Russian missiles where pointed to you. I mean, half a division could cross the border and occupy your capital in less than 2 hours. Why bomb your country before it?

you mean Germany?

Finland doesn't even have good relationship with Russia, same with Sweden. They constantly violate their aerial borders to "cuck" them and just last year, Putin gave the order to build a big military base next to Finland.

Even if Russians got what they wanted and NATO disbanded tomorrow, the member states wouldn't all suddenly cosy up to an autocratic, militaristic hell hole.

But they have much better relations with Russia than the Baltic states do.
Russia doesn't have their troops right next to their border, no do they attack Finland through cyberwarefare or influence their Russian minorities.
I understand why you are distrustful towards Russia, but you have to see the situation from their prespective.

Do what, exactly? Trying to defend ourselves against an insane aggressive military block, that tries to destroy us? While being completely outnumbered and outgunned? You have invaded half the world already and still pretend to be innocent victims. Are you on a payroll or just this brainwashed?

Fuck NATO

No one gives a shit Europe being friendly, we just don't like living right next to a genocidal maniac, who is pointing a huge gun towards us and waits for the opportunity to shoot.

this

"Better" doesn't mean anything, it's still a hostile and distrustful relationship. There has been real military activity and planning by the Russians in the Baltic Sea, which has led Sweden to place troops on Gotland and revamp their Armed Forces. Finland has a discussion about joining NATO every year and every year Putin comes to visit them as a thank you for not doing so. The Finns know that if they were to join NATO, they could possibly end up as the #2 threat to Russia's so called "independece" no matter what the term means nowadays. Putin even said flat out to Niinistö, that if they were to join NATO, Russia would fight until the blood of the last Finn has been spilled. Of course in the context of "if it were to lead to a conflict".

I am just saying that you joined NATO because you are afraid of Russia, and Russia is hostile towards you because they are afraid of USA/NATO.
I can understand the motivation of both sides, but I think it would be better for everybody if we somehow established a peaceful relation. Estonia would be the one to benefit most from not beeing in danger of Russian invasion and having trade with their eastern neighbour

You will still have the exact same neighbours and nothing will change. That's what you don't seem to grasp. Even Article 5 will practically be the same.

True, the maniac will still be there. But with a substantially smaller gun, and thus with a reduced desire to use it.

>established a peaceful relation
>with a militaristic dictatorship of russia
now you are just being ridiculous, Ivan

That is not true because Russia was already getting aggressive pre-NATO. Russia invades its neighbors for a sport. The last 3 targets have been non-NATO, because they're weaker.

Today, people brainwashed by the Russian media would justify a Russian invasion of the Baltics if we wanted to join the EU or NATO "because it threatens Russia's sovereignty", which is a bullshit Putinist narrative to create a power vaccuum in the Eastern block, which Russia would fill.

Russia is a severely nationalist state - from the Russians for the Russians. You can't play "both sides" with them like most Euro countries do. As a neighbor, you are expected to either technically or literally be a part of the Russian economy and contribute the profits to their GDP or not deal with them at all. It essentially functions on the same principles as the USSR, except the iron curtain has been shifted back to Russia's actual borders, which they are not happy about at all. Even with all this, I'm not saying trade is impossible, but it is impossible with the current government.

> just contribute to common NATO budget
tell that to our government

Are you implying you are not?

But you are not a small country just by yourself anymore. You are a part of the biggest single market in the world, a market that is incredibly important to Russia.
I doubt Putin would destroy his business relations with Europe just to get Estonian clay.

Yes. Germany only want peace

To be honest I could repeat it a dozen times and it still won't ever sink in.
NATO is only a formalised protocol for a soft understanding that has effectively existed since the birth of the Soviet Union. If NATO did not exist, Russia would find itself no freer to push outwards than it is currently. And there are other agreements between states that would prohibit it. Many of these are as formal as NATO. The EU itself has its CSDP, for instance. Or matters could be taken to the UN as with Korea. Whatever the case, the former states would not somehow overlook Russian aggression for lack of a treaty.
The NATO member states will always be hostile to Russia not because of the defence pact proper but because of what Russia is. There will never be a magic wand that Russians can wave to defang the states to its west or pull them out of American orbit. That is the cold truth.

>I doubt Putin would destroy his business relations with Europe just to get Estonian clay

You can't really "destroy" business relations unless you intend to keep it that way yourself. Putin annexes clay, says sorry and 10 years later, voila, relations are normal again. Even now, I'm starting to see a changing attitude towards sanctions for Crimea in the world. And I can't really blame people. It just happened kind of a long time ago and the situation has been frozen, but the effects are permanent.

Do you really think if Russia annexed Estonia, other EU countries would be like "meh, whatever"?

>Implying
Conflict is in your blood Hans.

>says the fucking viking

Those nuns were asking for it

Absolutely. What economic or military leverage does Germany as the head of EU have over Russia? They are selling you cheap gas and buying a ton of German exports as a 140m market. Russia as a market is a dream come true for Germany with abhorrent production power and quality, but with decent buying power thanks to natural resources. All you have to do is pump pump pump out stuff out of factories and ship it there for incredible profits. You won't pass up this opportunity for some microstates next to the Baltic Sea. The sanctions would come, the relationships would freeze, then melt and the world would carry on, as it always has. UK and US always had a far more sober view of Russia than let's say someone like Schröder, who essentially preached the same utopian garbage about being "friends" with Putin's regime.

You can repeat all the bullshit you want. The truth is that you are the ones pushing, you are the ones being aggressive, you are the ones attacking everyone around the world, you are the ones threatening us. We know that you will always be hostile and that's why we will always defend ourselves. And it makes you so mad that you can't just push Russia and its allies around anymore. That's why you settle for propaganda and subterfuge.

>What economic or military leverage does Germany as the head of EU have over Russia?
EU is Russias biggest trading partner

>Russia as a market is a dream come true for Germany with abhorrent production power and quality, but with decent buying power thanks to natural resources.
I agree. Russia and Germany are dream team. They have resources, we have industry and know-how. I think Russia sees it the same way and wouldn't want to destroy this relations just to gain a baltic state whose people hate Russia anyways.

>You won't pass up this opportunity for some microstates next to the Baltic Sea.
If we wouldn't react, EU would fall apart. And while German people are peaceful now, it would change really quickly if they felt threatend by Russian agression. Don't forget that Germany almost managed to defeat Soviet Union while fighting against France and Britain at the same time. Russia would have no chance defeating an united Europe in war.

>Russia would have no chance defeating an united Europe in war.
Famous last words

>EU is Russias biggest trading partner

But this is essentially the core argument of the current sanctions, which has led many EU states to believe they are the ones being punished for not being able to trade with Russia. Putin's popularity on the other hand is still high.

>I agree. Russia and Germany are dream team. They have resources, we have industry and know-how. I think Russia sees it the same way and wouldn't want to destroy this relations just to gain a baltic state whose people hate Russia anyways.

I believe they're just aiming to have both. But as far as the German vision of selling stuff to Russia forever, I would say that's standing on shaky grounds as well and not because of the Baltics or Ukraine, but because Putin envisions Russia as an industrial state just like Germany, which would produce the things it needs itself, thus removing the need to waste their resource money on imports. I can see the Russian people getting behind this initiative. As I said, Putin is extremely hesitant with foreign trade and this predates the sanctions (also in Estonia, where he choked the oil transit in the second half of the 00s).

>If we wouldn't react, EU would fall apart. And while German people are peaceful now, it would change really quickly if they felt threatend by Russian agression. Don't forget that Germany almost managed to defeat Soviet Union while fighting against France and Britain at the same time. Russia would have no chance defeating an united Europe in war.

As I said, Europe has no military leverage over Russia. If Russia decided to take the Baltics, there would be literally nothing you could do about it militarily. I really can't envision Germans riding high into war with Russia to take back the Baltics. This is why for us, NATO is an important partner and more relevant than ever.

>This is why for us, NATO is an important partner and more relevant than ever.
Still wishing to have a parade in Moscow, lol. Good luck with that.

russia never fought united europe

>who is Napoleon
>what is Crimean War
>what is WW2
Dumb proxy

Where you from lad?

There is already a binding common defense accord within the EU. It doesn't explicitely says 'you have to mobilize your army and go to war right away with whoever attacked a member-nation', but neither does the NATO accord btw.

The EU as an organization and its member countries would react. You can be sure of that because simply not reacting is not an option, as the whole structure would come crashing down in no time.

>Dumb proxy
кaкoй жe pycнявый cкoт тyпoй, пpocтo нeвepoятнo
during napoleon wars and the WW2 britain was fighting against napoleon's france and nazi germany respectively, so europe was not "united" by default

>Where you from lad?
are you blind or what?

I think you are confusing us with "visionaries" like Napoleon and Hitler. We are the guys that just want to live here in our own state, separate from Russia.

>You can be sure of that because simply not reacting is not an option, as the whole structure would come crashing down in no time.

Then it would come crashing down, because not even NATO wants to "ride" into war with Russia to liberate some area, much less the EU, which is less capable and less unified in its goals (especially militarily). This is why we have the NATO tripwire deterrence forces here, so that doing so wouldn't be necessary in the first place.

>why isn't your country a NATO member yet?
Uh..

>implying it would be alone if it was attacked

Кaкaя жe ты пpoкcятинa cкyчнaя и yбoгaя
Both in Napoleonic wars and WW2 Russia and Soviet Union respectively were fighting and winning against what was basically the entirety of Europe, united under the single power.

>We are the guys that just want to live here in our own state
While being a part of antirussian military block, trying to damage Russia at every opportunity and invading a new country every couple of months.

>why isn't your country a NATO member yet?
because they bombed the shit out of us in 90s

>are there any political parties that are openly pro-NATO?
no

NATO = criminal organization

лeл, oпyщeнный cын тyпopылoй oбocaннoй хpюcнявoй шлюхи.
britain was always one of the biggest and most powerful countries of europe, so if britain wasn't a part of the forces that were fighting against russia/soviet union, europe was not united in its fight against russia/soviet union, therefore russia/soviet union never fought united europe. how dumb you have to be to not understand that simple thing?
>basically the entirety of Europe
without britain it wasn't even close to the "entirety of europe"

>Russian thread about NATO

Жaлкaя ты yбoгaя пpoкcятинa, кaк жe тeбe жoпy пpoпeкaeт, cмoтpeть пpиятнo
The whole of Europe minus Britain is still united Europe.

>Putin envisions Russia as an industrial state just like Germany, which would produce the things it needs itself, thus removing the need to waste their resource money on imports.
The problem is that Russia has a population of only 150 millions. No matter how industrialized they get, with such a small population, they would never be able to be a relevant power in a world where huge blocks like EU, USA or China exist. I do believe that if we could combine EUs high population and industry with Russians vast territory, resources and military, we could become a new superpower. And I think USA is trying to stop that.

>This is why for us, NATO is an important partner and more relevant than ever.
I understand why you wouldn't bet your independance on Germanys trade interests, and I am not saying that you should leave NATO. But I think it would be in our best interest if we would work on improving relations with Russia

Europe is not even close to be united

Hitler occupied France and Napoleon occupied Germany
Beeing occupied by an enemy force is not the same as beeing united

because we don't want protection, we want sovereignty and independence
freedom for the people of france

usa, ussr i don't care everybody just fuck off
it's france and france only

>I do believe that if we could combine EUs high population and industry with Russians vast territory, resources and military, we could become a new superpower.
Here we go again

>United gayropa weak army us aryan mother russia slavic strong barbaric wild dont give à fucking absolut about Nothing about the Europain race à master race robot soldiers thet Will Just fight Every Europain scum Pepole to the finnel dead

Hahahaha never change liberal nikita the bloger scum

Russians brothers i Will give milion dolors for Pepole in russia Ukraina who Will find me this (nikita the bloger and his femily members and kiild them all )cut his head and bring it to me say all his femily dead and give me his head so i can drink rakija from his skall and burns all his members in aternel fire !!!!!!

Contact me

ramzan kadirov !!!!

Alihamdulila

actually Axis wasn't a "united europe", i mean Germany, Romania and Hungary is not a whole Europe

тyпaя хpюcнявaя выблядинa.
you said russia fought against united europe. britain is a part of europe. britain was not a part of a coalition that was fighting against russia. therefore europe was not united in its fight against russia so russia never fought against united europe. how is it hard to understand you dumb imbecile?

Are saying that every non-french/non-german soldier invaded Russia/SU unwillingly? Because it is such hilarious bullshit, that's it not even funny. You can occupy a country, you can't force its population to fight for you.

some of us are pro-NATO and genuinely want to see NATO forces marching through our capital after they liberated us from those criminal tyrants in the government

I don't want Germany to go to war just because Trump or Erdogan might sperg out. I'd rather stay neutral

those who dont like it probably got fucked up by nato itself, so it's pretty understandable
most of times means that we have to aid burgers in their shitty hegemony jewish tricks
the defensive points are good but im not so sure about that

Foreign soldiers will fight for money, but they wont sacrifice themselves for your country.
Also, you will always be forced to leave part of your troops behind to keep France/Germany occupied, and those countries wont support your with 100% of their industrial output, since they see you as foreign invader and only obey you because you threaten them with violence

Жaлкaя ты нeдoчeлoвeчecкaя мнoгoнoжкa, ты yмилитeлeн в cвoём yбoжecтвe. Из кaкoй жoпoбoльнoй дыpы ты выпoлз? Пoлзи oбpaтнo.
The absolute majority of Europe was united, the absence of Britain is completely irrelevant.

Stop responding to your cancerous diaspora.

It doesn't matter how exactly Europe was united, willingly or unwillingly. The fact is that Russia already fought and won against the united Europe. And the result will be the same next time.

Europe was occupied but never united

Why are Russians always plotting on invading Europe? Tbh NATO is necessary as long as Russians have that kind of attitude.

The German was trying to prove the Russian wrong. I love when Nato shills are so dumb that they start attacking each other

Bring it on Nikita we Will fight Any one

We russins we slavs woriors we Dont care or give a fuck how strong our enmy is we will die are Get killed but we Gona tale evrey one With us to hell

Кaкиe cилны нaши вpaги бyдyт мы их вceх пapвём нa кycки !!!!!

Бyдeт гoтoвa бeз caжeлeния !!!!!

Cyкa блят !!!!

Hиктa мы тeбя cкopo нaйдём и вcю твoю ceмью yбём a тeбя живoтнaя мы тeбя нayчим кaк жить пpoвилнo твap мpaз шaкaл ypoд мyдилa гaндoн пpидётcя тeбя yмepят cкopo нaшeй pyкoй вa имя Aллaхa я тeбя caм бyдy кaзнить жaйтaн!!!!!!!!!!

From our perspective the difference is irrelevant. We were still attacked by the entirety of Europe.

Yes Russia strong

You hardly managed to defeat nazis.
What do you think would happen if instead of fighting two front wars, Hitler would have gotten help from France and UK and all three would have invaded Soviet Union?
Do you really think it would have made no difference?

>The problem is that Russia has a population of only 150 millions. No matter how industrialized they get, with such a small population, they would never be able to be a relevant power in a world where huge blocks like EU, USA or China exist.

Don't forget they were able to reach these heights with the USSR. And this is where their heads are at right now as a collective - erasing the humiliation of Cold War and bringing back the past glory of the great empires they have had. Their current status in the world as being China's dangerous and unpredictable henchman doesn't satisfy them. And Putin has been drafting the long game to change it.

I don't think Russia is looking to be reliant on German imports at all. They want to produce themselves like they used to. Since Russian products have proven to be inferior quality, an iron curtain between them and countries who produce better products, is required. Therefore, to me, a vision of a union between a nationalist Russia paired with Germany seems absolutely ridiculous. I truly believe the capitalist Russia of the 90s who cozied up to Europe and bled money in every direction was a mirage. Their plans are far different now.

>You hardly managed to defeat nazis.
Germany surrended unconditionally after a complete and utter defeat
>What do you think would happen if instead of fighting two front wars
Hitler never fought a two front war
>Do you really think it would have made no difference?
Absolutely

The likes of the UK has its fingers in many pies anyway, being a member of NATO is just one.

The main thing in all this is that we must protect qt Estonia.

>Brazil will be spared, because we never dindu nuffing wrong.
>Seriously, there is not a single country on earth that hate us.
Brazilians hate Brazilians though. Most of your wars were against yourselves.

When they were USSR they controlled half of Europe and many countries in Asia, their population was probably more than 300 millions.
Also, back then, most of the world was still developing, China was a poor shithole.
The world has changed, and Putin knows this. He is well aware that if he doesn't play his cards right, Russia will become Chinas bitch. He can't really afford to alienate Europeans in this new world of huge global powers.

>But they have much better relations with Russia than the Baltic states do.
Maybe because they didn't have to live in a paradise with Russians for as long.