Basic Income

With more jobs being done by AI and machinery, will there be a time when basic income is a necessity? It reeks of hippy bullshit to me, but the arguments are unusually compelling.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=6xGyKuyGhaE
youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

it will be but there is no need to worry about now maybe a 40 years from now

i mean why not at this point? who gives a fuck anymore?

even with AI and literally no jobs as we view them today humans will never exist in a post-surplus state as communists have always theorized. so, no

>With more jobs being done by AI and machinery, will there be a time when basic income is a necessity? It reeks of hippy bullshit to me, but the arguments are unusually compelling.


We already have 'basic income.' its called Welfare and its for niggers and white trash.

You want to live like a nigger?

once something loses value other things gain value infinitely

Gas chambers is not left or right. It's FORWARD.

>Basic income
If ALL taxes and ALL gibsmedat will end, yes.

>I'll be useless in the future, so the owners of the means of production will reward me for my lack of purpose

No I'm against it on principle, but it will probably be dubbed a "human right" by bleeding heart liberals pretty soon

Yes, yes, consume all the resources for free, Goyim.

See what happens.

Do you want us to die in a famine?

That would be consistent with your previous actions.

>voluntarily feeding parasites

Nature tells us this is a really bad idea.

Basic income is a gibsmedat. Plus other forms of income would have to be taxed in order to pay for it.

>giving everyone free money
>expecting them to use it properly
what could possibly go wrong?

>universal basic income is not left or right
except for the part where it's extremely leftist

kek senpai

This will actually happen fairly soon
Of course not for 8 billion people, not nearly enough resources for that
A purge will come first

Fuck off with this bullshit. I will not allow my tax money to go to funding unemployed niggers and NEETs. Killl yourselves.

If you can't find a job then that's your fault for not going into STEM and actually being the ones programming AI and engineering the machinery of the future.

>This will actually happen fairly soon
>A purge will come first
confirmed for 12 years old

It's inevitable. Otherwise war will tear this civilization apart. There is unrest brewing already.

...

Reddit is not forward or right, it is down the hall and to the LEFT

basic income would 100% destroy whatever jobs you think people still do

getting something for nothing is ALWAYS a better deal even if it's not a lot

basically it would fuck everything up worse than a dug-in welfare state already does

You can barely call what people do nowadays """""""""""""""jobs"""""""""""""""

Actually the idea comes from the most prominent conservative economists of the 20th century.

Hayek and Friedman.

You are clueless.

But we need a massive population explosion, followed by a massive die-out.

It's the only way.

Basic Income is great. Automate everything. Anyone against it is either a wagecuck or a bitter CEO. Everyone will be able to relax and enjoy themselves, free of hard labour.

If a job can be automated, it should be and it will be

Any system that isn't meritocratic at this point is shit. Basic Income is fine provided it has a sunset in place to end after five years perhaps ten. If it's used as a means to dismantle the multiple welfare programs while accomplishing that aim then yes. They could also leave WIC and Food Stamps in place and cut everything else including social security/disability.

>(((Friedman)))

This. The amount of actual work needed to keep society ticking is very small. Things like advertising and marketing are completely and utterly pointless, they add nothing. Ramp up automation and scientific funding.

>everyone

No.

Was Hayek leftist? The idea originated from conservative economists.

It's fucking retarded.

>hand out money that is supposed to supply enough for people to prive basic needs for themselves
>chunk of society stops working and goes full NEET
>low supply of workers, prices rise
>"basic income" no longer enough to provide basic needs like before
>raise taxes
>rinse and repeat until bankruptcy

Trusting The Ivy League.

The bigger the ivy, the bigger the rats!

>basic income would 100% destroy whatever jobs you think people still do

You should read some post-scarcity sci fi novels. It's an interesting subject.

We're not ready for it. It's too highly politicized. Look at the replies in this thread as an example.

But mark my words, it's coming. We won't have any choice in the matter.

Actually Hayek though of it first and was more of an advocate:

"I have always said that I am in favor of a minimum income for every person in the country"

The ultimate entitlement to end all entitlements and shrink the bureaucracy of the bloated nanny state.

Ah yes, (((friedman))), a noted """conservative"""

t. reddit futurologist

>basic income would 100% destroy whatever jobs you think people still do

Actually it creates more aggregate demand in an economy.

It's far superior to the bloated welfare state. Why do you think conservative economists like Hayek supported a guaranteed basic income?

If everyone had it, it would lose value.

Yes, let's devalue our currency.

We've already devalued human life!

>taxing future generations to pay for you to be a lazy piece of shit your entire life

This destroys the future.

Friedman was wrong. Basic income is worse than the welfare state. Vouchers are still the way to go.

Hayek.

You want to work? Good on you. Meanwhile we'll plow on with automation and let everyone have leisure time.

If there are still jobs which can't be automated in the short term, the burden can be shared by all. Rather than working 40 hours a week, we could work perhaps one day a week for a mere few hours. Even without any more automation the working week could easily be reduced, it's just lengthened to increase corporate profit margins..

> as if todays world isnt the most civil society ever accomplished by mankind
confirmed for 12 years old

That's a misrepresentation of Friedman's negative income tax proposal. Moreover, the amount a person would receive as a tax credit under such a proposal would not be anything close to what UBI advocates want.

...

>the arguments are unusually compelling
Not really. The idea of telling your boss to go fuck himself is though. People just never think this shit through. Most people don't like their jobs or their bosses. Who wouldn't want to sit around and watch TV and play on the computer all day instead of work?

The proposal by conservatives was always to abolish all other forms of welfare and replace with the UBI.

Why don't you read about why the most prominent conservative economists of the 20th century supported it?

You can start with Hayek's "Road to Serfdom"

I hope so, I'd love not to work in my life.

NEETs are the future of mankind.

And then get rid of the UBI?

Brilliant!

Yes, yes, let's abolish all entitlements and replace it with a single massive entitlement, then... poof!

kek you cheeky fuck

Capitalism will fall to it's own impossibility just like communism did in the 90's

This is mainly due to the fact that growth economy is unsustainable both economically and environmentally. World has finite resources and climate change is a real issue. Who will buy the products when unemployment reaches 30%? 50%? 70%? due to automation.
youtube.com/watch?v=6xGyKuyGhaE

Basic income and 4-6 hour workdays will become normal if we want to go forward and keep as many people working and earning as possible. But the basic income must be just enough to get you by to keep people motivated to find work or start a business.

Basic income, like welfare, will probably work for a while.

There will still be working class service men and technicians who maintain the robots and machines who will maybe get better pay than just basic.

There will be some puppet master types who still run the exchanges of goods and any money that is traded.

The dystopia come in when either people breed too many more mouths to feed or some psychopath at the top decides to create a kill bot army and cuts off basic income for X place that is in the way of future development.

But, for a while, yeah it will sort of work like welfare.

Definitely, but if we try to implement it now society will fall before autonomy can come into existence

>capitalism will fail (ALLEGEDLY)
>communism has already failed
>I GOT IT LETS JUST MIX THEM TOGETHER PERFECT

Misrepresenting the NIT, how so?

Let's see what Friedman himself said about the NIT:

youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM

"They would be far better off if we just gave them the money and let them spend it."

> "ive never heard of population decreasing in developed nations"

>Conservative economists
>Focusing on increasing aggregate demand
You can call him a conservative if you want, but that's a left viewpoint.

Capitalism is inherently contradictory. It will fall under its own weight as automation takes off, as feudalism fell when industrialisation took off.

Basic income will never become normal. It would completely devalue money, leading to the abandonment of the whole concept and replacement by a new "money" system, starting the cycle anew. In essence, basic income would destroy itself.

>Let's just give them the money.
>Federal Reserve is an interest-based currency.
>???
>Profit!

>literally free shit for no effort
>compelling arguments

Sounds like you're actually a hippy faggot trying to be cool

>AIs do jobs now so lets pretend scarcity doesnt exist

well i hope by the time everything is automated humanity should have long abandoned the monetary system.

I don't think decreasing bureaucracy or government is a left viewpoint. Also, Hayek and Friedman understood the reality of modern economies and automation but wanted to preserve free markets. The UBI is a way of doing that.

>Something someone else has to provide you is a human right.

I will never understand liberal """"""""""thinking""""""""""

>enough money to keep you from starving will mean everyone in the world will just watch TV all day
>humans don't have an internal drive to better themselves and help society
Obviosly these anti-badic incomers are just wanna be NEETS that would feel too ashamed if they didnt do something.

It would actually decrease government spending, less bureaucracy.

Tax cuts as a form of economic stimulus is not a new idea, it began with Reagan. The UBI is a subsidy that comes in the form of a Negative Income Tax.

I'm for free money, if the amount is based on the results of a DNA test.

We have to randomize it somehow.

Diversity is our strength!

By killing people, it would actually RAISE the life expectancies!

I'm an intellectual!

We are not gonna be trading goats, Ahmed.

Machinest, here. AI will never be able to do my job. Ever.

Sure some people want to help others, and that's fine. Not everyone cares about helping society or self-improving though. The point is, given basic income, everyone could pursue their own desires, without worrying about employment and housing, and the other insecurities people have today.

Expected rate of decrease? I should not have had to call you out on this point.

You have heard of mass shootings.

You have heard of folks named Hitler, Stalin, Mao.

So mass killing for convenience is not something new to your mind. Now apply that to future technology theories.

expensive and cancerous bureaucracy, huge waiting lines and annoyance are the only things stopping a lot of people from getting welfare and sitting back at life, instead of searching for work. If they get a fat deposit every month without having to move a finger, imagine how many NEETs that would create.

C O M M U N I S M
O M M U N I S M C
M M U N I S M C O
M U N I S M C O M
U N I S M C O M M
N I S M C O M M U
I S M C O M M U N
S M C O M M U N I
M C O M M U N I S

>basic income

Just more buzzwords.

Possibly. In which case people would re-train as machinists to help you and reduce your working week.

Communists glorify work and labour. A lot of basic income people are very "anti-work" and quite hopeful for the future.

Yes it will. Don't be stupid.

AI will be smarter than the smartest human in 50 years without a doubt.

More money is spent on getting the money to people, making sure they meet every requirement and that they use it the "correct" way than actually makes it to people's pockets. Trashing the government apparatus would massively reduce spending to the point where the money being handed out could be doubled and you'd still save enormously compared to how much you spend now. Of course, being an extremist ideologue is more fun. Perfect is the enemy of good.

could have basic income
OR
people could not give free money to the relatively well off in the first world and invest in improving the 2nd/3rd world via trade there. Can you see what additional problems overpopulation has beyond physical living space and resource consumption? (the go-to's "debunking" it)

It's absolutely batshit insane to have both open borders and free handouts. Not because I'm a meany, but because it focuses the economy into one market place of lavish consumerism.

>never
Only stupid people say never.

There is already 5 separate entities putting multiple billions in to space mining.
That includes 2 separate governments.

There has been a module that spent 3 months up in space to test out some ideas. (one from probably the most well known space mining company, Planetary Resources)
With their current roadmap, they will be sending out scout satellites in 5-10 years to look for the best asteroids to mine.
Decade after, the miners will be launched.
I talked to one of the guys dealing with said mined material, suggesting ideas such as a massive solar smelter that spins and separates the materials out in to cylinders. Then it is just a case of slicing them off.

In 100 years, humans will 100% be post-scarcity society.
There are no ifs, buts.
Well, there is one major if, whether we will survive or power-hungry fucktards will nuke us to oblivion.
But beside that, or some freak of nature, nothing will stop it.
in 50 years, we sill start to see the markets dying for resources, mainly energy and useful metals for computing and construction. (gold, platinum, steel and the like)


But even outside of that, right now, we could easily feed 10 billion humans if we created an industrial scale aquaponics farm with the same square footage of Wales, more-or-less.
Obviously it won't be IN Wales, but I mean sky-scraper aquaponics farms in all major cities.
Traditional farming is killing the planet with massive greenhouse gasses.
It is one of the biggest causes next to construction industries and energy.
Traditional farming is just fucking awful. Both for work and yields.
You can even put a fucking TREE in aquaponics farms. Absolute madman.
Food is one of the biggest reasons war and conflict exist in this world.
In fact, it is basically THE reason. Remove food from anywhere and society dies so hard.
Having food covered for everyone would massively improve global relations so we can finally evolve as a species.

that already exists

>its called welfare

Let's dumb it down for you:

Would you rather the government cut taxes and abolish Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, and Food Stamps, or would you rather they increase taxes and keep entitlements?

>I don't think decreasing bureaucracy or government is a left viewpoint

you should go outside some time

>Also, Hayek and Friedman understood the reality of modern economies and automation but wanted to preserve free markets. The UBI is a way of doing that.
>Actually it creates more aggregate demand in an economy.

how does it do this if there is no incentive to work?

at least with welfare there are (minor) requirements to get gibsmedats

with basic income those requirements are gone and everyone gets money for nothing

the need to work is gone, and the only demand to be found would be transitional to the period where there are literally no jobs left to do

you can guess how well such a period would turn out for people depending on when you adopt basic income vs. how automated everything is at the time

and ALL of this ignores effects inflation would have on that period, or the economy afterward (why have money at all if everyone gets it for nothing, etc)

>Communists glorify work and labour. A lot of basic income people are very "anti-work" and quite hopeful for the future.

No. That's what they have made you delusionally think. They glorify work and labour to enact communism. Objectively, no one, ever, in the history of communism, ever, has suggested communism because they want to work more. It's always been about working less.

Basic Income is literally just another in a long line of buzzword the underground marxists are using in their subversion tactics to get people to embrace communism.

It's delusional and retarded.

...

>In 100 years, humans will 100% be post-scarcity society.

humanity will never be post-scarcity because we will create ways to capitalize on scarce products and therefore, profit

we will invent scarcity if we have to

>(((forward)))
>(((progress)))
>(((current year)))

That is definitely not at all what I said, but all right.

See

>Don't be stupid.

You don't be stupid. Since the beginning of time, Humans have built machines and used tools to help them increase efficiency for production. A.I. is no different. It is a machine. It does not have a soul. It is not human. It will do calculations, yes. "Guess" things by observing patterns in data. A.I. will never be as creative or intelligent as a human being.

Don't get me wrong. Science and Technology is a fantastic and wonderful thing and we should continue progress, but stop worshiping it like some false idol that will someday somehow eclipse the human intellect.

Don't be stupid.

I actually want to end a massive swath of the government apparatus, as I've said. Nothing about my proposal is about "everyone being treated equally," in fact people would be very much unequal. I have not even mentioned gun control which I'm heavily against. You are tilting at windmills.

Facts where?

Fact is, the strongest economies and workforces on the planet have MASSIVE welfare states.

Welfare allows self-regulation of the job sector because people can easily leave shitty jobs and move to others.
It also allows entrepreneurs to easily grow their businesses. (said countries have the most per capita)

It also improves peoples health, relationships and lowers crime overall because people don't need to turn to it JUST to feed themselves and possibly family.


The people that sit around doing nothing all day erry day are a minority. An extremely small minority.


I don't really agree with a full UBI scheme though.
I only agree with guaranteed income.
IE, if your income is below a threshold, you get said income.
This is the ones done in Nordic countries.
It is more sensible and considerably cheaper to operate in terms of finances.
Trying to figure out how much money a person has to spend is open to abuse because people can lie their asses off.
Using the cost of living in a region as a baseline is about the only realistic method you can use.

Unconditional basic income is just welfare.

Already welfare becomes a quid pro quo for your rights. Eg: be looking for a job or no welfare, be drug tested or no welfare etc. The Roman Dole will just make everyone dependent on the state.